out of a strong compelling curiousity and with little or no ties to freemasonry
(free mia's sons?) i was wondering if any free mason or free mason researcher could shed a little more light on the nearly forgotten house of the zodiac by the name OPHIUCHUS?

yes, i've googled and have done some research about the possible mythical connections and the snake bearer or snake restrainer, but i feel there must be something more. (?time phi you choose?)

any comments are encouraged and welcomed. thanks in advance for your insight and time.

Holy wasted time, Batman!!

Don't you have anything better to do than regurgitate this crap? Seriously... It's played out dude... You will win no "converts" here.

[edit on 6/1/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by eudaimonia

First, note the hexagram to the far left of the picture. Remember, the hexagram is the most evil of all Black Magick symbols. Witches have used it for years to cast curses on people; many people in the past few thousand years have died by having a hex placed on them.

I know you don't care but for anyone interested.

Hex as in getting a hex put on someone has nothing to do with the hexagram. it comes from the German word hexen "to practice sorcery." That became the Pennsylvania Dutch word hexe where the word hex was derived. First recorded usage of the word was in an 1830 work called Annals of Philadelphia.

Ain't the internet great? You can even find factual stuff on it!!

Originally posted by The Axeman
Holy wasted time, Batman!!

Don't you have anything better to do than regurgitate this crap? Seriously... It's played out dude... You will win no "converts" here.

[edit on 6/1/05 by The Axeman]

I won't win the "converts", obviously, and it's not my intention to do so.

But what I am doing is saving those who are contemplating joining Masonry, and that's good enough for me.

Played out? Truth is played out? Hmm, well that's a first.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by eudaimonia

First, note the hexagram to the far left of the picture. Remember, the hexagram is the most evil of all Black Magick symbols. Witches have used it for years to cast curses on people; many people in the past few thousand years have died by having a hex placed on them.

I know you don't care but for anyone interested.

Hex as in getting a hex put on someone has nothing to do with the hexagram. it comes from the German word hexen "to practice sorcery." That became the Pennsylvania Dutch word hexe where the word hex was derived. First recorded usage of the word was in an 1830 work called Annals of Philadelphia.

Ain't the internet great? You can even find factual stuff on it!!

Your so funny. I'm glad you find this subject matter humorous, keep it up.


Sorcery, Hexes, they're all intertwined in the workings of Witchcraft.


Are you implying that Sorcery is a 100% POSITIVE practice?

curious how truth could ever be seperated from truth. how can one hold truth in the left hand and truth in the right hand, but when paired can no longer be any resemblence of truth? long battle, no one wins. one gets killed, one becomes a killer.

happy trails, sad trials.

in the end (if you are lucky) you may only have one hand, holding part of the truth which is now either dead, or a killer.

feed the hand that wastes you?

find common ground and dive in together. worst case scenerio there is you both get wet, and hopefully a little cleaner.

[edit on 1/6/05 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by eudaimonia

I won't win the "converts", obviously, and it's not my intention to do so.

But what I am doing is saving those who are contemplating joining Masonry, and that's good enough for me.

Played out? Truth is played out? Hmm, well that's a first.

The truth?

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Deuteronomy 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Proverbs 14:25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.
Proverbs 19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Sorcery, Hexes, they're all intertwined in the workings of Witchcraft.

Are you implying that Sorcery is a 100% POSITIVE practice?

Magick is like electricity.. it's all in how it's used.



[edit on 6/1/2005 by Cug]

Eudaimonia, apparently you didn't read any of those sites I reccommended, and you still want to misinterperit Albert Pike.

Your claims are very bread-and-butter, this topic comes up all the time on this site. The hexagram, represents the symbolic relationship between the heavens and the earth, as well as the union of male and female. It is formed by two triangles, one right side up the other, upside down. The square and compass represent the same thing. They are used in masonic ritual in different arrangements, to symbolize different messages, and lessons. The truth is all of this information you mis interperit, is on the internet, published for everyone to see, and yet you refuse to check it out.

Eudaimonia If you are so well versed on pike, why not tell me what it says on pages 13 and 14 of the original print version of M&D, because it talks all about the symbols of masonry, including the five and six pointed star, as well as the reason for the square and compass. If you read all of it, it should be darn near impossible to misinterperit.



[edit on 1-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

THE HEXAGRAM
OF MAGICK

By David Cherubim
(Frater Aurora Aureae)
Copyright © 1992 e.v.
The Order of the
Thelemic Golden Dawn.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The Hexagram represents the formula and accomplishment of the Great Work in both the material and spiritual worlds. It is composed of the symbols for Fire and Water. It is synonymous with the symbol of the Rose and Cross, the Ankh (Crux Ansata), the Sun and Moon Conjoined, and the Cross in the Circle. It represents the union of the two opposites in Nature, male and female, light and darkness, activity and passivity, and all other opposites that constitute creation.

The Hexagram is a geometrical symbol of the Sun. The Sun is an external symbol of the One Reality or the One Self that is manifest in all things. One of the most significant of all realizations for the Adept is that s/he is the Sun made manifest in the flesh, an incarnation of the Lord of the Solar System. The Hexagram is the Sign of such an Adept.

From one point of view, the upright triangle of the Hexagram represents the Holy Guardian Angel, our inner Self, and the inverted triangle represents WoMan, our human self. These two triangles united represent what is called in Magick "the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel." The Holy Guardian Angel is the "star" of every man and every woman, that is, their inner celestial nature as opposed to their purely human self. To unite one's human consciousness with that Angel is to awaken the Solar Consciousness and to realize oneself in the Sun of Light and Life.

From another point of view the upright triangle represents WoMan ascending into Godhead through the power of Aspiration, and the inverted triangle represents God descending into WoMan through the power of Inspiration. These two triangles interlaced indicate the completion of the Great Work; they represent a perfect balance of the human and divine Will, a complete synthesis and harmony of all that is terrestrial and celestial. The Hexagram is also a geometrical symbol of Lapis Philosophorum, the Stone of the Philosophers, which is the product of Sol and Luna and/or Fire and Water. It is therefore a symbol of what is termed in Magick, "the Mystery of Mysteries" and "the Secret of Secrets." It is said that by the application of this Great Secret the Alchemist can transmute all base metals into the perfect material gold of the Sun, which is the first and final product of the mineral kingdom. Gold is the perfect metal of all metals, the most exalted form of the mineral kingdom. It is a material symbol of a spiritual reality that is also symbolized in Heaven by the Great Sun of Light. All other metals are said to be imperfections of gold, and they are striving in Nature to become the perfect gold. Thus the Hexagram represents that which brings Nature to perfection.

In the Hexagram are not only contained the mysteries of Fire and Water, but also of Air and Earth. Notice that when you combine the symbols for Fire and Water to produce the grand symbol of the Hexagram, you also make the symbols for Air and Earth, which are the same as the symbols for Fire and Water but with a cross bar or line in each triangle which is formed in the Hexagram.

Each line of the Hexagram or Hexalpha indicates the number 111, since a single line of the Hexagram contains three equal parts, each of which may be represented by the number 1, so that the number 111 can symbolize every line. There are six lines in all, so that 111 x 6 = 666, the Most Holy Number of the Sun. Each angle of the Hexagram is 60 degrees. 60 is the number of the Hebrew letter Samekh, which is the letter of the Holy Guardian Angel. Six angles of 60 degrees each equal 360 degrees, and 360 is the number of the Hebrew letter Shin spelled in full. Shin is the letter of the Spirit of the Sun and it is esoterically composed of three Hebrew Vavs. Vav is the sixth letter of the Hebrew Alphabet, so that three Vavs indicate the number 666. 666 is the number of Sorath (SVRTh), the Spirit of the Sun. It is also the number of Shemesh Yahweh (ShMSh IHVH), the Sun of Tetragrammaton.

The Hexagram of Magick further represents the operation of the Seven Planets under the presidency of the Sephiroth and of the seven-lettered name ARARITA. ARARITA is a Notariqon. In other words, it is a word which is composed of seven letters formed from the initials of a Hebrew sentence meaning: "One is His Beginning: One is His Individuality: His Permutation is One."

Concerning the word ARARITA, Aleister Crowley wrote: "The use of this Name and Formula is to equate and identify every idea with its opposite; thus being released from the obsession of thinking any one of them as "true" (and therefore binding); one can withdraw oneself from the whole sphere of the Ruach."

The seven letters of ARARITA are linked to the six points of the Hexagram and its center. Thus these seven letters also correspond with certain Sephiroth on the Qabalistic Tree of Life and their corresponding Planets, since the seven Planets and their corresponding Sephiroth are linked to the points of the Hexagram. Such are the following:

LETTER PLANET SEPHIRA
A Saturn Binah (3)
R Jupiter Chesed (4)
A Mars Geburah (5)
R Sol Tiphareth (6)
I Venus Netzach (7)
T Mercury Hod (8)
A Luna Yesod (9)

The attribution of the Planets to the points of the Hexagram is derived from superimposing the Hexagram on the Qabalistic Tree of Life. (For the sake of convenience, the Sun and Moon are also called Planets). Thus the Path between the Sephiroth called Chesed and Geburah corresponds with the base of the inverted triangle, while the Path between the Sephiroth called Netzach and Hod corresponds with the base of the upright triangle. The uppermost point of the Hexagram corresponds to Daath, the invisible Sephira, and the lowest point corresponds to Yesod, the ninth Sephira.

The Planets (including Pluto, Uranus and Neptune) are linked with certain Sephiroth on the Qabalistic Tree of Life. Pluto corresponds with Kether (1); Uranus corresponds with Chokmah (2); Saturn corresponds with Binah (3); Jupiter corresponds with Chesed (4); Mars corresponds with Geburah (5); the Sun corresponds with Tiphareth (6); Venus corresponds with Netzach (7); Mercury corresponds with Hod (8); and the Moon corresponds with Yesod (9). Neptune corresponds with Daath, the so-called eleventh Sephira, which is located in the Abyss below Chokmah and Binah on the Tree of Life. It was the original location of Malkuth, the tenth Sephira, before the so-called Fall of Man. It is said that Daath was formed out of the conjunction of Chokmah and Binah.

Since the Hexagram cannot embrace any of the Supernal Sephiroth to correspond with any of its points, it is said that these Supernals called Kether, Chokmah and Binah are concentrated in the uppermost point of the Hexagram at the place of Daath. Crowley informs us that Daath is in another dimension to the other Sephiroth, and it forms the Apex of a Pyramid of which the three Supernal Sephiroth form the three basal angles.


As far as the inverted pentagram I couldn't find any other suitable resources pertaining to it. The only thing that I learned so far is that when inverted the pentagram simply means matter over spirit.



[edit on 1-6-2005 by Majestic12]

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by eudaimonia

I won't win the "converts", obviously, and it's not my intention to do so.

But what I am doing is saving those who are contemplating joining Masonry, and that's good enough for me.

Played out? Truth is played out? Hmm, well that's a first.

The truth?

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Deuteronomy 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Proverbs 14:25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.
Proverbs 19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Sorcery, Hexes, they're all intertwined in the workings of Witchcraft.

Are you implying that Sorcery is a 100% POSITIVE practice?

Magick is like electricity.. it's all in how it's used.



[edit on 6/1/2005 by Cug]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

So, from what I can tell as you point out in your selected verses, that I'm basically a liar?

Funny, I look up factual stuff on the internet too, as you do too, maybe everything on the internet is a lie, right?

Maybe you have no idea what your talking about and everything that you've learned is a complete lie as well.

Or maybe your just here to call me a liar just for the hell of it because you have no way to defend the information presented.

Originally posted by Cug

Magick is like electricity.. it's all in how it's used.

Right, all in how it's used. So, let's just say...50/50 in the forms of good and evil. Or is the reality of "Magick" or the manipulation of electricity (Vibrations) being almost used entirely for the purpose of negative means?

Would you accept the possibility that many members use Masonry for the purposes that which is not good?

Actually, Cug did say ONE truthful thing in his post. Magick IS like electricity, because it is the same phenomenon in a different setting, a different medium for the same energy.

Magick is human electricity. And yes, it can be like a battery, both negative and positive. That is why it is kept hidden from people, better they consider it all a lie, than to realize the power of good magick, and the extent of black magick used against people.

That is why people are so afraid of words such as vampiric, sex magick, occult, and ritual.

Its all true. Even the word ritual spells its out, i al tru. And the rest of the meaning is in the word SpiRitual.

But really no converts? I am one, many times over.

In my opinions magick is neutral. There is no white or black or anything in between. It's behavior is merely determined by the behavior of the caster.

Originally posted by akilles
Actually, Cug did say ONE truthful thing in his post. Magick IS like electricity, because it is the same phenomenon in a different setting, a different medium for the same energy.

Magick is human electricity. And yes, it can be like a battery, both negative and positive. That is why it is kept hidden from people, better they consider it all a lie, than to realize the power of good magick, and the extent of black magick used against people.

That is why people are so afraid of words such as vampiric, sex magick, occult, and ritual.


Now I find this very interesting.
I don't mean to go far off topic,,, but i once knew a mature woman who liked to play the "Magic" card game with groups of people...later she wanted to antroduce me to a particular "group" of people... but she didn't want to tell me who they were..
To cut to the chase... at one point she got very angry at me.
for some reason It seemed like i felt a "force'... and I felt aneed to check my automobile. 'When I got to my car.. it would not start... but it emitted some unusual noises.. the lights, but not the radio worked, etc..
I had my car taken to a repairman,.and the next day he stated that he could find absolutely nothing wrong with my vehicle

Plus...I have alway felt that the gnosis what a way to justify evil.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

So, from what I can tell as you point out in your selected verses, that I'm basically a liar?

Funny, I look up factual stuff on the internet too, as you do too, maybe everything on the internet is a lie, right?

Maybe you have no idea what your talking about and everything that you've learned is a complete lie as well.

Or maybe your just here to call me a liar just for the hell of it because you have no way to defend the information presented.

Apparently there's LOTS of things you don't understand, primarily Freemasonry and its related issues you chose to twist and deform to suit your own purposes. Yes, you are being called a liar by more than one person.

We were correct in our assertion that you are merely regurgitating what you have read on other websites, as you claim to "look up factual stuff". You do realize that just because something is presented as factual doesn't mean it actually is? Certain websites lack something we call legitimacy, which is important in order for the information contained therein to be taken seriously, as actual fact.

Just because it seems true, or makes a good story, doesn't mean that it's true! Before you present your findings here on ATS, you need to do additional research to find facts and evidence to support the information you have discovered within a site. This is the critical step that you missed.

The fact that you believe the HEXAGRAM is satanic demonstrates how little you actually understand. You are of the mindset that anything that does not conform to your standards is "satanic". That's as ignorant as it comes, my friend, because there's nothing we can do to argue with someone who uses such abrupt and distorted reasoning in their arguments.

I will take this time now to remind you that posting knowingly false information is against the Terms of Service. Are you aware of the fact that what you are posting is false information?


[edit on 1-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by eudaimonia

I won't win the "converts", obviously, and it's not my intention to do so.

But what I am doing is saving those who are contemplating joining Masonry, and that's good enough for me.

Played out? Truth is played out? Hmm, well that's a first.

The truth?

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Deuteronomy 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Proverbs 14:25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.
Proverbs 19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Sorcery, Hexes, they're all intertwined in the workings of Witchcraft.

Are you implying that Sorcery is a 100% POSITIVE practice?

Magick is like electricity.. it's all in how it's used.



[edit on 6/1/2005 by Cug]

how can u quote the bible and then say magick is all in the use? the OT is strongly against all magical practices and idol worship and graven idols.

duet 18:10 THere shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch
11 or a charmer , o ra consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer
12 for all that do thes things are an abomination to the Lord and because of these abominations the lord thy God drive them out before thee.

and that pike quote. im sorry but who else but lucifer is commonly referred to the spirit of darkness? is Venus the planet referred to as the spirit of darkness or evil or satan or the devil. No lucifer, devil, satan, dragon , serpent, assyrian, king of tyre, accuser, opposer, antichrist is. Maybe pike isnt representative of all masonry, but he isnt talking about anything else there.
Isiah 14:12 How art thou fallen , O lucifer, son of the morning!.....
How art thou cut to the ground, which didsts weaken the nations.
Luke 10:18 ...I beheld satan as lighting fall from heaven
Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which decieveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels with him

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

So, from what I can tell as you point out in your selected verses, that I'm basically a liar?

You may think that you are telling Truth, but you are most certainly not.

Funny, I look up factual stuff on the internet too, as you do too, maybe everything on the internet is a lie, right?

No you don't. You regurgitate other peoples opinion. The more you post, the more patently obvious it is to people who do understand freemasonry that you have no idea what you are talking about.

What is even more alarming is that you post it as if it were fact. As if you know these things.

You do not.

The litany of misinformation you have posted is truly spectacular. My favorite is Sex and Freemasonry. Seriously - you're off the deep end if you believe this stuff.

Maybe you have no idea what your talking about and everything that you've learned is a complete lie as well.

No. The difference is you read about it. He experienced it.

Or maybe your just here to call me a liar just for the hell of it because you have no way to defend the information presented.

Select one accusation you have made towards freemasonry, give it your best shot and I will debunk it before your very eyes.

However, the best use of your time is to read around your subject a little more.

Oh, and don't be so gullible.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

So, from what I can tell as you point out in your selected verses, that I'm basically a liar?

Funny, I look up factual stuff on the internet too, as you do too, maybe everything on the internet is a lie, right?

Maybe you have no idea what your talking about and everything that you've learned is a complete lie as well.

Or maybe your just here to call me a liar just for the hell of it because you have no way to defend the information presented.

Apparently there's LOTS of things you don't understand, primarily Freemasonry and its related issues you chose to twist and deform to suit your own purposes. Yes, you are being called a liar by more than one person.

We were correct in our assertion that you are merely regurgitating what you have read on other websites, as you claim to "look up factual stuff". You do realize that just because something is presented as factual doesn't mean it actually is? Certain websites lack something we call legitimacy, which is important in order for the information contained therein to be taken seriously, as actual fact.

Just because it seems true, or makes a good story, doesn't mean that it's true! Before you present your findings here on ATS, you need to do additional research to find facts and evidence to support the information you have discovered within a site. This is the critical step that you missed.

I will take this time now to remind you that posting knowingly false information is against the Terms of Service. Are you aware of the fact that what you are posting is false information?

Talk about slander! Hypocrisy!


First of all, "posting knowingly false information"? Wrong.

Second, why not take this opportunity to prove to the world that Freemasonry has absolutely no roots in the Occult, Witchcraft, Satanism, Sex Rituals, Secret Societies, and that it's not affliated with Skull and Bones at Yale University?

Third, "You do realize that just because something is presented as factual doesn't mean it actually is? Certain websites lack something we call legitimacy....

I don't post information unless it's backed up with a source, and maybe I'm going crazy here but usually when a high official that is heavily experienced in a particular body of work or practice for a long time and explains their view on the matter, it is something that is nearly 100% of the time, a VERY CREDIBLE and LEGITIMATE way of understanding the nature of any subject matter.


And don't slick your way of threatening me with your lame "Uh oh, you have violated ATS T&C", and dodge your way out of this.

Nice try!