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Jesus in the OT

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posted on May, 30 2005 @ 01:37 PM
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This thread is for collecting OT scripture that either points to Jesus, or shows Jesus directly, if not by name.

One such example is Daniel 3:25

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

That is what I mean by direct. Not named.
In that chapter you see the story of the king of the known world getting mad at three jews who would not bow before the image he had made. So he ordered a fire built 7 times hotter then normal (the fire was normally used for ceramic tile / brick making and is normally over 1000 degrees anyway...speculation).
The three men get thrown in the fire...then men who throw them in are burn up in the act. The 3 dont burn tho. A 4th man is seen walking in the fire with them. The 4th man is described as looking like the Son of God.


Examples of ones that point to Jesus would be the many that christians always use as prophecies that Jesus filled.




posted on May, 30 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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I don't know if this one matches either category or creates a new one.

Noah's ark pointed to Christ. Noah was safe in the ark, believers are safe in Christ. The ark had one way in. Christ is the only way to the Father. There is also something with the pitch that was used on the ark. If I remember right the same word used for pitch was the same word used for atonement when dealing with sin. There are other things about the ark and Christ but I can't remember them.

Boaz in the book of Ruth is also a picture of Christ.

Joseph(son of Abraham) is also a picture of Christ.

Melchizedek is also a picture of Christ or was the preincarnate Christ. I've heard some say that Jews believe Melchizedek was Shem.

When the Bible talks about "The Angel of the Lord" that is speaking of Christ. The Angel of the Lord that met with Daniels parents before he was born was a preincarnate Jesus.

Issac had some picturing of Christ.

there are others, and I will have to look for them.

Issac was a picture of Christ.

The Bible OT and NT point to Christ. Christ is the focus of mankind's redemption. I watched a program that told of every OT book and how it pointed to Christ. The point of Christ being the focal point is very important. If attention is drawn off of Christ you need discernment in that occasion. Ex. apparitions of "Mary" draw attention to herself, and not Christ. It's plain and simple, if you are not being sent to Christ it is of satan.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 30-5-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 08:12 PM
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This thread is for collecting OT scripture that either points to Jesus, or shows Jesus directly, if not by name.


Jesus is not in the Tanakh. Try a concordance search and see where the passages begin.


One such example is Daniel 3:25

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


That's a TERRIBLE translation. Here, let me help. He answered, "But I see four men walking about unbound and unharmed in the fired and the fourth looks like a divine being." Where the hell did Song of G-d come from? Ah, King James. I should have known. Most other Christian translations say son of the gods. Would that be Jesus too? And just for clarification, this verse is about angels. Cross reference 7.13-14, 8.15-16.


That is what I mean by direct. Not named.


That would be indirect.


In that chapter you see the story of the king of the known world getting mad at three jews who would not bow before the image he had made. So he ordered a fire built 7 times hotter then normal (the fire was normally used for ceramic tile / brick making and is normally over 1000 degrees anyway...speculation).
The three men get thrown in the fire...then men who throw them in are burn up in the act. The 3 dont burn tho. A 4th man is seen walking in the fire with them. The 4th man is described as looking like the Son of God.


Um no. Not "Son of G-d." Read verse 28. "Nebuchadnezzar spoke up and said, "Blessed be the G-d of Sharach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who sent His angel to save His servants who, trusting in Him, fouted the king's decree at the risk of their lives rather than serve or worship any god but their own G-d." In King James, it also says angel. Why it was originally twisted is beyond me.



Examples of ones that point to Jesus would be the many that christians always use as prophecies that Jesus filled.


...but are wrong about.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

This thread is for collecting OT scripture that either points to Jesus, or shows Jesus directly, if not by name.
{MUCH SNIPPING}


Examples of ones that point to Jesus would be the many that christians always use as prophecies that Jesus filled.


...but are wrong about.


Goodness! It's Hell trying to be a peacemaker around here!


Okay, Shonet.... Since I sort of lectured Jake about RCC bashing - in all fairness - I'm going to have to address your comments.

As you well know there were at least four primary exegetical methods - or keys, if you will - that were used during the Common Era by the proto-rabbinic (and later the rabbinic) sages to "unlock" other layers of meaning within the Sacred Text.

These interpretive keys were used by these sages to establish religio-legal rulings (halakhot) and to support their haggadic (moralistic) teachings and they were even pulled grossly out of context in order that they might be applied to historical gaps or events not covered in the Sacred Text and to bolster tales from the Oral Tradition or to expound upon future events and in some cases even the character, life, work and/or legends regarding their fellow sages.

These interpretive keys (or approaches) to the Sacred Text were known by the acronym PaRDeS, which means, "Paradise", but which represent the following:

1. Peshat - The explicit meaning of the text as it appears with all of its complexity and sophistication.
2. Derash - The implicit meaning of the text.
3. Remez - The meaning which is only hinted at by the text.
4. Sod - The esoteric meaning of the text.

Like you, I also feel that the early followers of Yeshua (Jesus) pulled things grossly out of the explicit, plain and simple context of the Sacred Text.

Nevertheless, like it or not, for better or worse, these Jewish Believers were simply using the same exegetical methods that the other sages of their time were using to "make their point" and bolster their belief.

I could quote numerous examples where the rabbis likewise used the above exegetical keys over against the explicit meaning of the Sacred Text to validate their beliefs and teachings.

For pity's sake, Akiba did the same bloody thing to support Shimeon ben Kosiba as a messianic figure! RIGHT!? Does that mean we ought to start trashing Akiba or Shimeon ben Kosiba for taking some freaking initiative in attempting to usher in the Messianic Era? Does that mean we ought to chuck out everything Akiba taught and treat the man like a Pariah?

Let us all try to use a little common sense and please ... let's try to view things in light of their proper historical, linguistic and cultural context, okay?
Pretty pwease!

Further, Yeshua (Jesus), like the other sages of his day and age, taught these exegetical techniques to his own disciples and gave them these "Keys to the Kingdom", so they too could forbid ("bind") and permit ("loose") certain actions and thereby establish "communal level" halakhot (religio-legal rulings).

Nevertheless, Yeshua (Jesus) did make it clear that his disciples were to abide by the societal religio-legal rulings set forth by the Religious Sanhedrin of Seventy-One, which functioned as the Religious Supreme Court of that day and age ... and which must be distinguished from the Zadokite (Sadducean) dominated Sanhedrin that questioned Yeshua (Jesus) and eventually turned him over to Herod and the Romans.

WHEW!!!! :bnghd:

[edit on 7-6-2005 by smadewell]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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The three children in the Furnice?
Father,Son and Holy Spirit!

and the fourth is like the Son of God!

In Orthodoxy this is a Pre-figuration of Christ!
and is used in Liturgy ...........almost all of the Old Testament has pre-figurations of Christ.

quote/ Nebuchadnezzar sat on a high throne near the furnace. When he heard the singing, he was astonished, then dumbfounded. He rose up in haste and said to his counselors, "But I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not burnt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Then he came near to the furnace and said, "Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come out and come here."

www.fatheralexander.org...

In the following prophecy, Zachariah foretold that the Messiah would be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver.
In the prophecy the discourse emanates from the name of God, Who offers the Judean commanders to designate to Him a payment for all that He did for their people: “
If it is agreeable to you,
give Me My wages; and if not, refrain” so they weighed out for My wages thirty pieces of silver.
And the Lord said to me
“throw it to the potter — that princely price they set on Me.” So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter” (Zach. 11:12-13).
As we know from the Gospel that for thirty pieces of silver Judas Iscariot betrayed his Teacher.
However Judas did not expect that Christ would be condemned to death. Having heard of this,
he regretted his deed and threw away in the temple the coins that were given to him. For those thirty pieces of silver, the high ranked priests bought from the potter a piece of land for the burial of strangers, just as Zachariah had predicted. (Mat. 27:9-10).

The prophet Amos foretold of the eclipse of the sun,
which happened during Christ’s crucifixion. “And it shall come to pass in that day” says the Lord God, T
hat I will make the sun go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in broad daylight” (Am. 8:9).
We find a similar prophecy in Zachariah: “It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light…It shall be one day which is known to the Lord: Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light” (Zach. 14:6-9).

Yet one little while, and I will move the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land, And I will move all nations, — And the Desired of all Nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts… Great shall be the glory of this last house, more than the first…” (Aggeus 2:6-7).

“Behold the Man whose name is the BRANCH, From His place He shall branch out, and He shall build the Temple of the Lord… He shall be a priest on His throne” (Zach. 6:12-13).

“Behold I send My Angel (the prophet John) and he shall prepare the way before My face and presently the Lord whom you seek shall unexpectedly come into His temple, and the Angel of the Testament whom you desire. Behold He comes, saith the Lord of Hosts” (Mal. 3:1).



God the Father calls the Messiah “The desired of all Nations,” “Branch,” “Lord” and “Angel of the Testament.”
These names of the Messiah which were known to the Jews from previous prophecies bound all the numerous preceding prophecies regarding Christ into a whole. Malachias was the last Old Testament prophet.
His prophecy regarding the sending of the “Angel” to prepare the path for the Lord Who was to follow shortly, ends the mission of the Old Testament prophets and begins the period of awaiting the coming of Christ.

We can only agree to the prophecy brought forth by Zacharias that the Messiah was to found the Lord’s Temple.
Here the discourse is not about the founding of a stone Temple (which could not possibly hold all peoples) but of a spiritual one — Churches of the Faithful. Since God inhabits the souls of the faithful as in a Temple. (Lev. 26:12).

www.orthodoxphotos.com...

There's heaps more.....
quote/
In the Old Testament books, several hundred prophecies about the Messiah and His blessed Kingdom can be found.
They are scattered throughout almost all the books of the Old Testament, beginning with the Five Books of Moses and ending with the last prophets Zachariah and Malachi. The Prophet Moses, King David, the Prophets Isaiah, Daniel and Zachariah wrote the most about the Messiah.
www.orthodoxphotos.com...

also/quote/
When Abraham returned, he met solemnly with Melchizedek, who was a priest of the Most-high God and King of Salem. He offered bread and wine as a gift to Abraham and blessed him.

Nothing is known concerning Melchizedek,
his background, and his death.
The name Melchizedek means king of righteousness,
and the word Salem means peace.
Melchizedek was a prototype of Jesus Christ.
Just as Melchizedek was at the same time priest and king,
so Jesus Christ is High Priest and King.
Just as neither the beginning nor the end of the life of Melchizedek is told, he, as it were, lives forever.
So also Christ is eternal God, King and High Priest; we call Jesus Christ the High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
And just as our Lord Jesus Christ gave us, in the form of bread and wine, His Body and Blood, that is, Holy Communion, so also Melchizedek, foreshadowing the Saviour, offered Abraham bread and wine and, since he was older, blessed Abraham.

Abraham accepted the blessing of Melchizedek with reverence and gave him the tenth part of his spoils.

Note: See Genesis, chaps. 12,14,15,16,17.
www.fatheralexander.org...

IX
helen



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 09:35 AM
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Goodness! It's Hell trying to be a peacemaker around here!


It must be hard when there is no war!




Nevertheless, like it or not, for better or worse, these Jewish Believers were simply using the same exegetical methods that the other sages of their time were using to "make their point" and bolster their belief.


But they kind of went above and beyond that. They added to, took away, etc. And what happened next? The Roman Empire, that's what. It's sad how few Christians know that there are other texts, that their Bible was voted upon, that there were other messiahs to come along, etc. I suppose the information is threatening to the status quo.


I could quote numerous examples where the rabbis likewise used the above exegetical keys over against the explicit meaning of the Sacred Text to validate their beliefs and teachings.


Of course there have been. There is a part of the service after the Torah is read where we ask questions to the rabbi and to each other. We are all Pharisees now and it's individual. Understand that just because a rabbi sees it one way, does not mean that we all believe that. We don't have to. It's not like we're going to hell or anything!



For pity's sake, Akiba did the same bloody thing to support Shimeon ben Kosiba as a messianic figure! RIGHT!? Does that mean we ought to start trashing Akiba or Shimeon ben Kosiba for taking some freaking initiative in attempting to usher in the Messianic Era? Does that mean we ought to chuck out everything Akiba taught and treat the man like a Pariah?


He came closer to the moshiach than Jesus did. And why wasn't he considered the messiah? He died. Just like Jesus.


Let us all try to use a little common sense and please ... let's try to view things in light of their proper historical, linguistic and cultural context, okay? Pretty pwease!


I do. Mine just predates Jesus.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

Goodness! It's Hell trying to be a peacemaker around here!


It must be hard when there is no war!


Doesn't have to be a war, let alone a blow struck, for one to seek peace. Hillel said, "Be disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people and drawing them near the Torah." Pursue.... Catch my drift? The Shammaite approach of using a measuring rod to correct people didn't work very well in his day and it ain't winning anyone over these days either. Just a thought....

The bottom line is.... I've noticed way too much faith bashing (in various forms) since I've joined. I'm not opposed to a "Historically, that's not exactly accurate; it's more like this..." approach to a dialogue.

I don't know.... Guess I'm just a little touchy and had a knee-jerk reaction to the perceived tone of your "corrections." I just hate to see the historical man misrepresented by one group, dismissed out of hand by the other, whilst being misinterpreted by both.

A name made great is a name destroyed, I guess. I'd just like to see the guy receive a fair shake for once and I'd like to see Jews and Christians work together. Taking pot shots and thereby shooting holes in each others respective beliefs hasn't gotten us anywhere in the last 1,900 years. You'd figure by now we'd recognize that and try a different approach.

Hard to do, I know.... I'm aware of your familial situation and you more than others have had to deal with this "conflict" up close and personal.

I just think there's gotta be a better way to dialogue here....
That's all.... I'll shut up now and resume my seat in the Peanut Gallery.


[edit on 7-6-2005 by smadewell]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Daniel 9 starts off giving us the time frame when it was written



In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;


The first verse is interesting in that it set the time-frame of this passage to about 538 B.C. We go on to read that Daniel is studying Jeremiah 25 and understands that the 70 years spoke of by Jeremiah is almost up. So Daniel decides to start praying and fasting for this prophecy to be fulfilled. Without going in to great detail about his prayer, let's skip to verse 20 where the Gabriel appears to Daniel to speak with him while he is praying.


Daniel recognizes Gabriel as the same person he had seen before while praying (Read Daniel 8). Why did Gabriel come? According to his own words it was to give Daniel skill in understanding.


Verse 24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Gabriel tells Daniel that seventy weeks was determined for the Jews and Jerusalem. The seventy weeks mentioned are actually 70 weeks of years as in 70 sets of 7 years, or 490 years. Sounds odd but we do the same sort of thing when we speak of periods of 10 years (decades) or periods of 100 years (centuries). How can I be sure of this? Well first of all we haven't seen the end of sin or everlasting righteousness yet. More information is given on this in the next verse.

Secondly we can look at other passages such as Genesis 29 where Jacob is tricked into marrying Leah instead of Rachel. In this passage Rachel's father Laban tells him to work another week and he can marry Rachel. Then it says he worked for 7 more years and married Rachel. It was common to refrence things in groups of 7.


verse 25
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two (62) weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Before we get into all the math in this verse, let's remember that the original Hebrew calendar had 360 days in a year. So now Gabriel gives Daniel a numeric prophecy that tells us when the Messiah the King (mashiyach nagiyd) would come. Once the decree to rebuild Jerusalem is given it will be 483 years (remember the weeks are weeks of years) until the Messiah came. The decree to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem can be found in Ezra. Now as we move on later to read Nehemiah, we find in chapter 2 of Nehemiah that the king Artaxerxes gives him permission to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, walls and all. This decree happened on March 14 of 445 BC.

Given the prophecy that Gabriel gave to Daniel, all we have to do is add the number of years that were mentioned to get the Messiah's arrival date. Let's use Jesus' entry into Jerusalem 4 days before passover(Luke 19) in 32 AD as the hit date.

445 BC to 32 AD is 476 years. There is no year 0 when when go from BC to AD. Now multiply that number by the number of days on our calendar (365) you get 173,740 days. Let's not forget to add 24 days to account for the time from March 14 to April 6 (4 days before passover in 32 AD). Now we also have to account for leap years on our calendar. Add in the extra day for every 4 years except for once every century which is a total of 116 days. 173,880 days in all. If we divide this number by 360 (Hebrew Calendar) you get exactly 483 years on the Hebrew calendar. An exact prediction down to the very day.

Sadly, as we read in Luke 19:41 Jesus weeps over Jerusalem and mentions that since they didn't recognize "thy day", that these things would be hidden from their eyes. He then goes on to predict the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple which comes "because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. " Even given the key to knowing his appearance to the very day, they missed it.



verse 26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


As we know Jesus was crucified in 32 AD. The Messiah was "cut off". The Hebrew word used in this case is karath which means execution. Then as prophesied in verse 26, the Romans came and destroyed the Jerusalem and the temple. Now the temple is gone. If Jesus was not the Messiah, then who was? That time frame has come and gone. The temple is no longer there to be destroyed and even if it was the number of years that Gabriel gave to Daniel have come and gone.

One of two conclusion can be made from this. Either Jesus is the Messiah, or Daniel was a false prophet. Interesting that the part about Jersualem and the sancturary being destroyed came to pass. It looks to me like Daniel knew what he was talking about.


Refrences:
Chuck Missler - Dan 9 commentary. Real Audio
Artaxerxes I of Persia - Wikipedia
Great Jewish Revolt (Jerusalem Destroyed) - Wikipedia

[edit on 7-6-2005 by dbates]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Okay, Shonet.... Since I sort of lectured Jake about RCC bashing - in all fairness - I'm going to have to address your comments.


Nice. Like shonet said. There is no war and no need for peace where it exists already.

Son of gods would work for nebby. He wasnt a believer yet and still followed 'gods'.

Shonet, Im sure you can understand that the ideas and thoughts of a son of abraham who does not hold to the beliefs of abraham (as stated by jesus) and the beliefs of the pharisees (as seen in the gospels) cannot be taken at any value.

This is biblical ...

If your scripture reading/teaching skill cannot get you to recognize God or Jesus, then why would a christian give ear to you?



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 11:41 PM
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I have a few,
Born in Bethlahem
Micah 5:2
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Isreal;whose goings forth have been from of old,from everlasting.

Gifts
Psalms 72:10
The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Isaiah 60:6
The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.

Called Immanuel
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

A messanger will come before him.
Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Psalms 78:2-3
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.

Sold for 30 pieces of silver and money went for potters field
Zechariah 11:12-13
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Clothes ripped and lots cast
Psalms 22:18
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

There are plenty more Old Testament prophecies that point to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah.



posted on Jun, 10 2005 @ 01:38 PM
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Noah's ark pointed to Christ. Noah was safe in the ark, believers are safe in Christ. The ark had one way in. Christ is the only way to the Father. There is also something with the pitch that was used on the ark. If I remember right the same word used for pitch was the same word used for atonement when dealing with sin. There are other things about the ark and Christ but I can't remember them.


We Jews know that the story of the flood is not unique to us yet you as a Christian don't so therefore, you shove Jesus right on in. Too funny.


Boaz in the book of Ruth is also a picture of Christ.
Joseph(son of Abraham) is also a picture of Christ.


Both of those people are specifically shown who they are.


Melchizedek is also a picture of Christ or was the preincarnate Christ. I've heard some say that Jews believe Melchizedek was Shem.


Donmeh West - The Christian Myth of Melchizedek & Hereditary Jewish Priesthood


When the Bible talks about "The Angel of the Lord" that is speaking of Christ. The Angel of the Lord that met with Daniels parents before he was born was a preincarnate Jesus.


What about the angel of the L-rd who hindered Balaam? Here's a secret. That's HaSatan.


Issac had some picturing of Christ.
there are others, and I will have to look for them.
Issac was a picture of Christ.


Ugh...sorry. No.


The Bible OT and NT point to Christ.


Like I said once before, Trying to put Jesus in the Old Testament is like trying to stuff a fat man into a Speedo. Eventually, it falls apart at the seams.


Christ is the focus of mankind's redemption.


Good thing we Jews are taught how to redeem ourselves! Whew!


I watched a program that told of every OT book and how it pointed to Christ. The point of Christ being the focal point is very important. If attention is drawn off of Christ you need discernment in that occasion. Ex. apparitions of "Mary" draw attention to herself, and not Christ. It's plain and simple, if you are not being sent to Christ it is of satan.


Hmm that show wasn't biased now was it? Nah, never. And we Jews have horns anyhow. I'd take HaSatan any day over Jesus. At least hanging out with HaSatan, I know he's an angel of G-d who does G-d's will. I'd be worried that Jesus just might be that prophet in Deut. 13 who is sent to test my love and steer me wrong!



posted on Jun, 10 2005 @ 01:45 PM
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Doesn't have to be a war, let alone a blow struck, for one to seek peace. Hillel said, "Be disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving people and drawing them near the Torah." Pursue.... Catch my drift? The Shammaite approach of using a measuring rod to correct people didn't work very well in his day and it ain't winning anyone over these days either. Just a thought....


Good thing I'm not here to win people over! We are taught not to proselytize.


I don't know.... Guess I'm just a little touchy and had a knee-jerk reaction to the perceived tone of your "corrections."


You'll learn my style if you haven't already. I'm blunt, to the point, and a no frills kind of gal.


I just hate to see the historical man misrepresented by one group, dismissed out of hand by the other, whilst being misinterpreted by both.


I would have problem interpreting anything of him so long as A. His existence was truly established and B. People quit twisting the Tanakh.


A name made great is a name destroyed, I guess. I'd just like to see the guy receive a fair shake for once and I'd like to see Jews and Christians work together.


Until there is common ground and Christians aren't damning us to hell for killing their master, it just won't happen.


Taking pot shots and thereby shooting holes in each others respective beliefs hasn't gotten us anywhere in the last 1,900 years. You'd figure by now we'd recognize that and try a different approach.


I don't do pot shots. I tell my opinion and back it up. If I can't, I won't say it. Wait, I can't back that up. Never mind, I didn't say it.



Hard to do, I know.... I'm aware of your familial situation and you more than others have had to deal with this "conflict" up close and personal.


And what a wonderful situation it is!!! @@


I just think there's gotta be a better way to dialogue here.... That's all.... I'll shut up now and resume my seat in the Peanut Gallery.


Well looking back at what I said, I see nothing wrong with my corrections. First I said Jesus is not in the Tanakh. I suggest a concordance search so one could see that. I gave fact with a way to show that. Second I said bad translation, gave a new one and the correct interpretation with cross references. Again, opinion on the translation though also a fact with a ways to show what I was saying. Third, I corrected wording from direct to indirect. Those make a difference for what he was saying. Fourth, I said no son of G-d and pointed to verse 28. I then just sort of typed my thoughts out loud as to why it was originally twisted is beyond me. Then last, I said but wrong about. Fact according to the teachings of Judaism and MO and I gave a smiley face which showed I was being lighthearted.



posted on Jun, 10 2005 @ 01:46 PM
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Shonet, Im sure you can understand that the ideas and thoughts of a son of abraham who does not hold to the beliefs of abraham (as stated by jesus) and the beliefs of the pharisees (as seen in the gospels) cannot be taken at any value.


Jesus was a Pharisee.


This is biblical ...
If your scripture reading/teaching skill cannot get you to recognize God or Jesus, then why would a christian give ear to you?


My scripture does not tell me about Jesus therefore I cannot recognize what is not there. That's Tanakhical. I know G-d. I have a relationship with G-d. In my eyes, you follow a different god, so why would a Jew give ear to you? You religion is generated from mine. You stand to learn if nothing else. Also, to answer your question. G-d blesses those that bless Israel. There is nothing about G-d blessing people who bless Christians. Don't blame me. I didn't write the Bible!



posted on Jun, 10 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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Micah 5:2

About David.


Psalms 72:10

First verse...of Solomon. Try getting a Bible that's not hiding.


Isaiah 60:6

About Israel and Jerusalem. Verse 14, "City of the L-rd." Is Jesus a city?


Isaiah 7:14

Could you show me in the NT where Mary called Jesus Immanuel? Thanks.


Isaiah 40:3

LOL I couldn't help myself. This couldn't possibly be about an exile now can it? Or can it? It can! It can! The presence of G-d left the land along with the people being exiled. See Ezekiel.


Malachi 3:1

Hmm Malachi couldn't be talking about himself? Malakhi means messenger. Or maybe even Elijah?


Psalms 78:2-3

Your Bible is hiding again. "A maskil of Asaph."


Zechariah 11:12-13

You've resorted your Jesus to being a "worthless shepherd who abandoned his flock?" LOL


Psalms 22:18

Oy, get a new Bible. "For the leader; on ayyeleth ha-shahar. A psalm of David."


There are plenty more Old Testament prophecies that point to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah.


There are plenty that point to Jesus not filling the role of the moshiach.



posted on Jun, 10 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

When the Bible talks about "The Angel of the Lord" that is speaking of Christ. The Angel of the Lord that met with Daniels parents before he was born was a preincarnate Jesus.



I said Daniel and I meant Samson.



posted on Jun, 10 2005 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430
There are plenty that point to Jesus not filling the role of the moshiach.


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