Televangelists, knowingly lying?

I cant find in me the will to believe that teleevangelist do not know they are lying...
I BELIVE they know they are lying, and they do so becasue it brings them TONS of money and social status... and also they beleive in Once Saved Always Saved, so according to that false doctrine no matter what you do you cant loose you salvation, basically you will lie your way into Heaven and become a Heavenly liar...

Once you accept OSAS as Biblcal truth anything can be expected from you...

O.K. there is one, who died a year or two ago, who in over 3 years has sent me well over $4000 worth of tapes and printed material (going by the market price of all the others) without once asking for money!
He was also the only one who read the bible as I did, and all his material quoted from the bible including that no one should believe any man but search the scriptures themselves. This search included looking up the Hebrew and Greek.
I have no doubt that very few take to his message as i still don't know anyone else who reads the bible this way ( there are a couple of things I don't agree with him on but I have never been made to feel, "be gone you evil con man!") but I also have no doubt that he was the closest to the truth.
He also didn't claim to have all the answers and constantly reminded folk that as to the second coming only God knows when that will actually be and all the players in the event but that every one should 'watch' for the signs.
Do you get what I'm saying? Well over $4000 worth of good reading and listening without once asking for a cent! Stuff arrived within days or a week from making a promptly answered phone call. I at first expected the quilt trips and begging, like all the others I enquired with as to studying theology but he was the only one to send study material and NEVER ask for a cent. None of the others answered my enquirery but all begged or accused you of being undeserving of God's blessings if you didn't pay them cash.
Thankfully in Australia we don't get as many T.V. holy Joe shows. The few we do have are too much to bear as it is, other than this one guy who asked for nothing but gave, freely ,so much.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
I cant find in me the will to believe that teleevangelist do not know they are lying...
I BELIVE they know they are lying, and they do so becasue it brings them TONS of money and social status... and also they beleive in Once Saved Always Saved, so according to that false doctrine no matter what you do you cant loose you salvation, basically you will lie your way into Heaven and become a Heavenly liar...

Once you accept OSAS as Biblcal truth anything can be expected from you...

But how did they get to that position? Like I said, you don't start in the ministry intending to make butt-loads of money.

Also, what are these lies we're all talking about so vaguely (is that a word?)? Is it a difference in interpretation of the Bible, is it saying Jesus Christ is God, or is it saying, pay me and you'll be saved? Or is there something in between I'm not seeing?

Originally posted by junglejake
But how did they get to that position? Like I said, you don't start in the ministry intending to make butt-loads of money.

Also, what are these lies we're all talking about so vaguely (is that a word?)? Is it a difference in interpretation of the Bible, is it saying Jesus Christ is God, or is it saying, pay me and you'll be saved? Or is there something in between I'm not seeing?

well that got to that position because sadly people obviously dont read the Bible as they should or they would fall for their balloney...

The lies include:
>>Promisse people Guaranteed Heaven/Salvation
>> Annoynted prayer napkins that will heal you of everything
>> Name it Claim it Doctrines ( Wish-Craft)
>> Telling people that Jesus is God, when Jesus himself said " Paray to my father in Heaven in MY name"...he didnt say "pray to me in Hevane in my name"
>> Telling people " Open your wallets to the Lord, because when your down to nothing the Lord is up to something" (TBN)
>> Telling people they are building Hospitals in Africa and than noone knows where those Hospitals are ???


Jake, between Doctrinal Lies, and Oil Snake/Bible Pimp stunts and sale pits ...the list could go on forever..

and those examples above, i heard myself its not hear say...

But you asked a good question..."How did they get there "

Peopl put them there... Jesus said "call no man good"... and these peopel not only call them good, they call them " GREAT MAN OF GOD" as they empty their walltes at their feet...

It takes two for the lies to kepp growin...
It takes two...The Pulpit and the Pew...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
'Course he has 'em pass the plate around after service, I'm sure. What church doesn't do that?

Exactly.

And when is the last time you heard someone praise a local church for giving them a hand-up from poverty with that which is collected in God's name?

What is the first application of the offering and tithes in just about every church in the US?

Salaries and overhead/upkeep of the church premises.

Then what's next?

Usually things within the church which are designed for the edification and fellowship of the members (activities and fun stuff, trips and special events).

Then what?

A special collection for the express purpose of saving for that new building-- or bus, or organ, or choir robes--etc...

And on and on.

Then, when all that is said and done--let's have a rummage sale or bake sale and give the proceeds to those in need. While you're at it--bring all those 10 year old cans of lima beans that you'll never eat down to the pantry and we'll bless a family in the community with food for their table.

No one please take offense, I know that there are churches out there that are not completely aligned with that description. But far more are than are not.

Bottom line about salaries. A minister of the LORD as a salaried employee of the congregation is a conflict of interests.

When a person depends upon a certain allotment for doing a certain thing for a specific group of people, in order to feed and clothe the family--how willing are they going to be to spread some of the unpopular truths which are found in the bible but not heard in the sermons?

A preacher who is a strict adherent to the gospel truths as given through the Holy Spirit is an unemployed preacher in this present world. All the rest, no matter how good their intentions, are not motivated by truth but by (not necessarily wealth or greed but) survival and ultimately, the rat-race!

I've never seen a preacher in a ford escort! Usually their cars are less than 5 years old!

Take that back, growing up, our preacher, Jerry Jenkins (he was rare, at least back then, haven't seen him in years) drove a 69 Camaro that he had owned since it was new. His wife had a van, but it wasn't nice or shiny--they had twin boys and a little girl. I babysitted for them, and I can testify they were barely surviving.

But that was in the 80's. Now that same church, different leader, requires $5000 each month to maintain it's structure and weekly attendance is maybe 75? In the 80's it was around 75. The 'church' is barely surviving!!!

Thank the LORD the Church of Christ (which is His body) has no overhead!!!
Or salaries!

Originally posted by suzy ryan
O.K. there is one, who died a year or two ago, who in over 3 years has sent me well over $4000 worth of tapes and printed material (going by the market price of all the others) without once asking for money!

What was his name?

Originally posted by queenannie38

Thank the LORD the Church of Christ (which is His body) has no overhead!!!
Or salaries!

Im sure someone will come up with "Heavenly Salaries"...and the more you give to our church the better your Heavenly salary will be...

Good thing I've made a decision to invest directly at the 'Corporate office'.

queenannie38, what would you request as a compromise, then? These are people who have chosen for their lives to serve God, and do so by working for a church. Would you rather no one who works for a church be paid? They just do what they do at the church, then go out to their field with the other church workers to get their nights rest, and heaven forbid any repairs or anything needs to be done for the church. Asking a repair company for charity would be along the same lines as asking for money, so they just have to sit there and hope nothing like the environment affects their church?

I have been to churches where they don't pass the plate, there is an area to give when you come in or leave, but it is not expected. I have never been to a church that has not said that they wouldn't like you to give if you're only visiting, and only give with prayer and if you support the message being delivered. The church I go to, as well, itemizes their monthly expenses and puts it on the program once a month. People know exactly where their money is going, and you can write on the check in the memo field "missionary services" or something like that and the money goes towards that ministry.

I was also involved for a little while with a church that had run into financial hardship. The first thing they did to try to fix costs was to cut all of the senior staff's salary. That doesn't really sound like the minister was only out for money. They did what people wish some CEOs would do -- if the money is drying up, the head of the organization doesn't give themselves a raise, they cut the costs starting with themselves.

Originally posted by junglejake
queenannie38, what would you request as a compromise, then?

I request no compromise. It's not me anyone is answerable to. I'm not even really criticizing, even though it might seem so. I'm just trying to demonstrate something that can benefit all of us to realize.

It's not me who can judge, and the one who judges will not compromise.

These are people who have chosen for their lives to serve God, and do so by working for a church.

How can one serve God by working for a church? If I work at Walmart, who am I serving? If I say I must have a paycheck or I will starve, what am I serving? How can I serve today if I'm worrying about tomorrow?

so they just have to sit there and hope nothing like the environment affects their church?

That statement says a lot. Hope? In what? Or whom?

They did what people wish some CEOs would do -- if the money is drying up, the head of the organization doesn't give themselves a raise, they cut the costs starting with themselves.

That is truly a good example that their heart is in the right place--and while I didn't know that for a fact, it is not a surprise to me to imagine that such a compromise is the norm, rather than the exception in such a situation.

But yet, is all that according to God--or the world? Spirit or flesh--which footprints leave the trail?
1 Thessalonians 2:9-12

Our thoughts about money as pertaining to God's work seem backwards these days:
Matthew 19:21
Mark 12:43-44
Luke 4:18, 14:13-14
Romans 15:26
2 Corinthians 6:10, 09:5-15
Galatians 2:10

The basket you believe in and trust the most is the one you put your eggs in for safekeeping.
Matthew 6:24-34

How can these church organizations be a true light of Christ in the community when the light they shine is not lit by Him? They don't trust in Him to sustain them in all things--how can they be guaranteed He is truly their employer? They don't even trust Him for their pay!

If that seems a little drastic, probably it is. But it is still exactly what Christ and His apostles taught without variation--and they probably had a reputation for being rather drastic,themselves! It is called faith. And that which is not of faith is of sin. The modern day churches neither walk by faith or show the example of actual faith in God--no matter what they might say and profess, the example is set by actions.

He didnt take a dime from them.

2Co 11:7 Have I committed an offense in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
2Co 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
2Co 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2Co 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.


Consider Paul to be one of those famous evangelists or whatever. He knew how these people were talking and came in prepared. The entire time he was there, he didnt take a thing from them. Not food, drink, room....

In verse 11- 13 he makes sure they know why. Its not because I dont love you. Its because... if I do...someone is going to come along and accuse me of serving myself...getting fat off of you..



2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

There were plenty of folks doing just that.
You cant lump them together.
Not by a long shot.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by suzy ryan
O.K. there is one, who died a year or two ago, who in over 3 years has sent me well over $4000 worth of tapes and printed material (going by the market price of all the others) without once asking for money!

What was his name?

Garner Ted Armstrong.

Originally posted by jake1997

There were plenty of folks doing just that.
You cant lump them together.
Not by a long shot.

There still are. If I don't lump them together---because of one certain shared trait, then am I not then being a 'respecter of persons'?

What's the difference? What's the justification. There is none. Those who do not trust in God are a dangerous place for one to get their teaching from, especially when it is not the only source available.

What about Matthew chapter 19? or 6:24-34?

As far as Paul--did he just do as was needed to keep reproach far from him? Or did he sincerely seek to set an example that was as blameless as possible, in all things, to all people?

The verse in 1 Thessalonians and many more, just in Paul's letters, gives us a glimpse of the men these first disciples were--in all ways they were faithful to His work, and pretty near above reproach--and definitely those they led had living examples of the LORD's footsteps. Are we to somehow believe that standards are somewhat lower these days, and just accept the standards the world now holds, even the 'christian' world? Is the Holy Spirit becoming lax and apathetic in regard to the standards set by Christ?

There is a major discrepancy evident--do you really not see what's wrong?

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
I cant find in me the will to believe that teleevangelist do not know they are lying...
I BELIVE they know they are lying, and they do so becasue it brings them TONS of money and social status... and also they beleive in Once Saved Always Saved, so according to that false doctrine no matter what you do you cant loose you salvation, basically you will lie your way into Heaven and become a Heavenly liar...

Once you accept OSAS as Biblcal truth anything can be expected from you...

There is one unpardonable sin. The sin of rejection. Rejecting Christ as Lord.

People who choose to serve the Lord take a vow of poverty. The church provides for them. There's nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is when men grow corrupt and skim off the church. It shows you where their heart really is. Not in that structure so many people seem to worship. It's in their vanity. There's nothing worse than a corrupted man of God. Nothing. If you can't trust a preacher, who can you trust?

It's not wise to trust a 'man of God'--but it is prudent and right to trust in the Son of Man.

Even if He's not televised.

I, personally trust few people. I can probly count those I do on one hand. And even then you can't be sure.

I trust a preacher as far as I see him and hear him. Knowing the scriptures, what's more to it than that?

I just skimmed this thread so if this has been posted already, please forgive.

Hank Hannegraf, aka "The Bible Answer Man", host of a radio show of the same name, has a book titled Christianity in Crisis that addresses a lot of false Christian teaching & false teachers. He really goes after the "name it - claim it" televangelists that have been touched on in this thread. Another book of Hank's in this same vein is Counterfeit Revival(though I haven't read this one).

While one should probably beware of someone with the temerity to call themself "The Bible Answer Man", Christianity in Crisis is informative & an interesting read. It is available on his website (www.equip.org) for ~$13. I imagine if you send them a nice email or letter, you might get it for free.

Originally posted by ChemicalLaser
While one should probably beware of someone with the temerity to call themself "The Bible Answer Man", Christianity in Crisis is informative & an interesting read. It is available on his website (www.equip.org) for ~$13. I imagine if you send them a nice email or letter, you might get it for free.

Thanx for the tip.

He sounds awright.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Once you accept OSAS as Biblcal truth anything can be expected from you...

I agree with ya' BaastetNoir ... OSAS is a VERY bad and dangerous doctrine.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
There is one unpardonable sin. The sin of rejection. Rejecting Christ as Lord.

Matthew 12:31-32 - Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be
forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit wil not be forgiven.
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but
whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this
age or in the age to come.

In this scripture we find that you CAN reject Christ. What else is speaking
against Christ but rejection? hmmmmmm

Elsewhere Christ says that whoever denys Him, He will deny to His Father.

Again ... hmmmmmmm.

Side note - VOW OF POVERTY that EastCoastKid brought up. I know that
in the Catholic Church the priests who are Religious as opposed to Parish
take vows of poverty (Religious is the NOUN term for Friars, Monks, and
those in orders like Franciscan, Dominican, Carmelite). They are not
allowed to own anything, not to have bank accounts, nothing. The order
is supposed to take care of them. Parish priests are paid a certain salary
and given housing. Not a house like you and I have, but a (usually)
modest house next to the church that he shares with other priests.
It isn't his to keep, but it's his to room in.

I would expect that a priest, minister, rabbi, or imam who works with
people in a parish, church, synagoge or whatever would NEED to have
an income. They have to pay for food and other things. A Catholic
priest doesn't have a wife and kids to support. However Ministers do.
The wife needs a hair cut, clothes; the kids need new shoes, money
for swim lessons, COLLEGE. This adds up.

I don't have a problem at all with paying a stipend to a minister who
runs a church. I understand the need. How else could he eat
and where would he sleep? It takes $$. He's gotta' live. AND if
he has a family?? That's more $$ (gee ... non-married priests are
starting to look like a great cheap deal, eh? )

But, I'm not protestant so I guess it's none of my business ...
I'm on the outside looking in.

[edit on 7/26/2005 by FlyersFan]