I get a kick out of these dorks who jump up and down over the Atomic bombings of Japan.

If you are against all war and all killing - fine. I can respect that. It is a perfectly logical and normal feeling.

But - if you wanna stand there and try to debate the morality of the US using atomics during WWII against Japan while ignoring or justifying other equally violent acts, you are a fool. Lets set a few facts straight about Japan in the late 1930's and early 1940's:

- In an unprovoke manner, Japan attacked and invaded the sovereign territory of at least 1/2 dozen nations. Whereever they went they terrorized, raped and killed the non-Japanese "gaigins" the had just subjugated.

- It is estimated that the Japanese, during the course of their invasion and occupation of China, the Japanese killed approximately 500K - 700K civilians. CIVILIANS. During the Rape of Nanking, some Chinese historians claim the it is not unreasonable to say 300K people were killed in a 2 week period by the Japanese Army alone.

- Also during the Japanese attack on China, they were the first country during WWII to use WMDs. Japanese planes bombed Chinese cities with biological weapons using anthrax and plague.

- Tens of thousands of innocent Korean women were kidnapped at gunpoint and forced to join military units at the front as sex-slaves. Most never returned to their homes.

- Japanese consistently did not fight war by established international war rules (Geneva Convention). Prisoners were routinely executed on the spot, made sport of, and used as slave labor. The Japanese, cold as they were, often photographed these events and sent them home as "souvenier postcards" to their wives, children and parents. Let us not forget the Bataan Death march where over 10K American and Filipino soldiers were marched abyoneted to death will marching off the POW camps.

IMHO, the Japanese regime GOT EXACTLY WHAT IT DESERVED. I have been alive long enough to learn a few facts of life, and there are certain things that are truisms. One of those things is "what goes around, comes around" and "you reap what you sow".

Plainly, if there was another way to defeat Japan without Allied loss of life AND the taking of so many Japanese live, I would choose it.

HOWEVER, since the Japanese themselves so often showed us that THEY THEMSELVES had no serious regard for innocent lives, civilian or otherwise, I will NEVER feel guilty about blasting them back into the stone age. As far as I am concerned they ought to feel LUCKY that we didnt nuke the Emperor's Palace as an example.

Now the Japanese are all a bunch of "peaceniks" and moan and groan about the "inhumanity" of atomic warfare, so on and so forth. Good for them. Talk to the hand, cause Pyros don't give a rats a$$ about how indignat you feel, cause you Japanese are STILL DENYING your atrocities in the war. Fess up, say you are sorry, and make good where you can. Then maybe we can talk about the morality of atomic weapons.

Otherwise, shut your cake-holes.

IMHO, the Japanese regime GOT EXACTLY WHAT IT DESERVED.

The imperial japanese regime got what it deserved, it was overthrown, a democracy established. But who were the real victims ? Not the japanese regime generals and officials, but the innocent japanese civilians martyred by the USAF. The nuclear Holocaust against the innocent japanese civilians was as immoral as the terror and genocide against jewish civilians, the bombing of german cities to dust, bombing japanese cities to dust, bulldozing palestinians, or sacking Nanking. It didnt achieve any military objective, it was solely intended as hateful terror against the civilian population, and these are the greatest crimes ever commited. There is no point in arguing the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were anything other than these other crimes. These are all the facets of human bestiality.



[Edited on 8-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Pyros: HOWEVER, since the Japanese themselves so often showed us that THEY THEMSELVES had no serious regard for innocent lives, civilian or otherwise, I will NEVER feel guilty about blasting them back into the stone age. As far as I am concerned they ought to feel LUCKY that we didnt nuke the Emperor's Palace as an example.

The Japanese had no serious regard for human life? As opposed to the US military? Hahaha.

"Talk to the hand, cause Pyros don't give a rats a$$ about how indignat you feel, cause you Japanese are STILL DENYING your atrocities in the war. Fess up, say you are sorry, and make good where you can. Then maybe we can talk about the morality of atomic weapons."

Who's still denying atrocities of war? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were atrocities. The US should fess up, say they are sorry, and try to make good. Then they can start apologizing for Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iraq, Colombia, the Phillipines, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

The single most destructive force in the world when it comes to killing innocents is the United States Military.

Close to 8,000 Iraqi civilians have died in the Illegal Iraq Invasion. Dead in a war of aggression by the most powerful military in the world against a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY WITHOUT EVEN A SINGLE AIRPLANE. Now that's heroism!

Better make sure you stay on that high horse, it looks like a long drop.

Japan still denies the rape of Nanking. There are videos and photos of it, but they say that the videos/pictures are false. They killed twice as many civillians in the Rape of Nanking, peaceful civillians that surrendered instead of fighting, then the two bombs killed. Of course, the Japanese people who we killed were willing to fight to the death. They were trained/training to kill Ally soilders. So, not really civillians, more like National Guard. They were soilders, just not professional soilders.

Second, not just American lives were saved. Russian, Chinese, English, French, Korean, and couple other countries didn't have to send in their soilders to be killed by the so called "civillians" of Japan.

Third, WE WARNED THEM!!! We told them to surrender or we would force them to. They didn't listen, said no. So we bombed them. They still didn't surrender, so we bombed them again. We were ready to bomb them again if they didn't surrender, but this time they did.

Don't blame the 1/2 dozen countries trying to end a war without losing all their men. Blame the people who started the war.

James the Lesser,

War is one thing. It might be necessary to kill soldiers to preserve the greater good. Mass murder of civilians, or genocide, is a completely different thing. It is not an acceptable means of war, whether it is used by Germans, Americans, Brits or Japanese. You must understand that. Whoever started the war (btw, that is often unclear as we can see in the Iraq case or the six days war case.. ie one could argue Pearl Harbour was a preemptive strike like the late one against Iraq) is, certainly responsible for the atrocities he commits, but the United States remains responsible for the atrocities against millions of japanese civilians. Everyone has his own share of responsibility. There is no way out of that. There is no, and never will be, any justification for genocide.

Originally posted by chebob
Aw, Cmon....No matter what benefits arose out of the bombing of Japan, nothing can make up for the loss of over 200,000 innocent lives. Hiroshima was an evil act no matter how you look at it.

You sir are a moron. if the atom bombs whould of not been dropped millions more cicilians would of taken their own lives. not to mention the soviets, under stalin at the time, probally woulda killed alot of people. not to emntion that alot of our boys woulda been killed invading japan. take omaha beach on d day and multiply it ten or even 50 times that. maybe even 100 times.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan



You sir are a moron. if the atom bombs whould of not been dropped millions more cicilians would of taken their own lives. not to mention the soviets, under stalin at the time, probally woulda killed alot of people. not to emntion that alot of our boys woulda been killed invading japan. take omaha beach on d day and multiply it ten or even 50 times that. maybe even 100 times.

No sir, I am not a moron. Although I assume that you are a moron for making such a statement. Fighting a war against Japanese military would have been a lot more "acceptable" (in terms of war), than just nuking a random 200,000 Japanese civilians to scare the whole country. It was bullying. It was cowardly.

And all that BS about the entire Japanese civilisation being trained, armed and ready to wipe out all the U.S/U.K. soldiers........that's just speculation and propoganda. There were other ways to end the war, even if it did take longer and cost military lives, although "millions" of US soldiers wouldn't have died. But War is Soldier Vs. Soldier, not Soldier Vs. Citizen, the American (and who ever else was in on it) Military should have been prepared to fight on in order to save those hundreds of thousands of innocent lives that were "Nuked".

But the US government was eager to test out their new toy, and they saw an oppurtunity that appealed to their childish, bloodthirsty ways.

Actually you all are morons.

The Japanese SAID, with proof from historical doccuments to back it up.

That they needed to be bombed with Atomics, or they'd never have given up until they were utterly slaughtered.

Anyone against the A-bombings is still a fool.

Even the Japanese agree!

That doesn't mean they think that Atomics or nukes should ever still be used...they of course are very anti-nuclear and have no nuke weapon programs themseleves.

They are also pretty anti-war now...as seen by their Parliments violent climax decision to send anything to Iraq.

But they still understand that to be stopped with as few casualties as possible for themselves, and everyone else, they needed to be nuked.

Originally posted by FreeMason
Actually you all are morons.

The Japanese SAID, with proof from historical doccuments to back it up.

That they needed to be bombed with Atomics, or they'd never have given up until they were utterly slaughtered.

Anyone against the A-bombings is still a fool.

Even the Japanese agree!

That doesn't mean they think that Atomics or nukes should ever still be used...they of course are very anti-nuclear and have no nuke weapon programs themseleves.

They are also pretty anti-war now...as seen by their Parliments violent climax decision to send anything to Iraq.

But they still understand that to be stopped with as few casualties as possible for themselves, and everyone else, they needed to be nuked.

I assume that the women and children who were disintegrated or burnt or radioactively poisoned, and their familys, also agree that they "needed to get Nuked"? I doubt it.....The ones that say they needed it are just the greedy ones who are thankful to have survived it and don't want it to happen again.

And as it has been said so many times, if the shoe was on the other foot, we'd have none of this "we deserved it" crap, no matter what the situation.

Originally posted by ThermoNuke
Kajomo, Pay attention in history. The U.S. had two battle plans at the time. Nuke Japan. Or invasion. Everyone knows that.

Here is my take on this. There was, in fact, two scenarios: continue the horrid carpet-bombing and initiate an invasion, or drop the new toy. Do I think the decision to drop the nuke was the correct one? yes, without a doubt. That applies to the FIRST one.

On the second one, I cannot say the same thing. Let's face it, they had a little one, and a big one, and they wanted their data points. I believe the Japanese government (and people) should have been given more time, and an assurance that a greater one was coming lest they changed their ways, before the second was dropped.

Hears how I see it the Japanese people have been seen in history as villains because of Pearl harbor. The US is said to save millions of lives and ending the war with it atomic bomb.

Let me see how that adds up. The Japanese kill X number of soldiers at Pear harbor and the Americans kill 3X number of civilians! Yes the Japanese were the bad guys in that one.

No matter how you explain it. The dropping of the Atomic bombs on civilian targets is even worse then the 9,11. And no excuse can change that.

According to Jakomo's view. We were very wrong for counter-attacking Japan after Pearl Harbor.

Shame on us.

We should have just slapped em on the wrist and said "that was bad"

Jakomo wrote "The Japanese had no serious regard for human life? As opposed to the US military? Hahaha."

Please, Im not even going to dignify that with thought.


[Edited on 8-8-2003 by ThermoNuke]

[Edited on 8-8-2003 by ThermoNuke]

arcana imperii or whatever your name is...I guess you never heard of a little thing the Japanese did called "The Rape of Nanking".

Because I expect you're pretty opinionated I don't expect you'll look up "The Rape of Nanking" so I'll just tell you.

In Nanking some 20,000+ Chinese civilians were brutally murdered.

Including the attrocious deaths of the Chinese adults, were the even more horrid deaths of the Chinese Children.

Babies suffering nothing less than the contest of Japanese officers to see who could cut off all the limbs of the baby with their sword the fastest.

Yes, the Japanese were bad guys...

Originally posted by FreeMason
arcana imperii or whatever your name is...I guess you never heard of a little thing the Japanese did called "The Rape of Nanking".

Because I expect you're pretty opinionated I don't expect you'll look up "The Rape of Nanking" so I'll just tell you.

In Nanking some 20,000+ Chinese civilians were brutally murdered.

Including the attrocious deaths of the Chinese adults, were the even more horrid deaths of the Chinese Children.

Babies suffering nothing less than the contest of Japanese officers to see who could cut off all the limbs of the baby with their sword the fastest.

Yes, the Japanese were bad guys...

Oh, look, the Japanese military are being evil.....I know, let's microwave 200,000 of their civilians, that'll teach em......

Among other Japanese attrocities, were the practices of rolling tanks over the bodies of tired American Soldiers who surrendered in the "Buhtan Death March".

Soldiers would have to watch a comrade too tired to walk be smashed as flat as a pancake, which frankly is something no one here can imagine.

Also, Japanese officers would cut the heads off of Soldiers at random, just for the hell of it.

The favored torture for the Japanese was to put a log in the pit of your knees, having you kneeling on both knees, with barbed wire wrapped around it, they would tie your hands behind your back, and then leave you in a circle of barbs pointed at your body, for you to eventually fall on when you became too tired to hold yourself up.

Oh yeah...the Japanese were just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO victimized.

F.ucking morons.

Originally posted by FreeMason
Among other Japanese attrocities, were the practices of rolling tanks over the bodies of tired American Soldiers who surrendered in the "Buhtan Death March".

Soldiers would have to watch a comrade too tired to walk be smashed as flat as a pancake, which frankly is something no one here can imagine.

Also, Japanese officers would cut the heads off of Soldiers at random, just for the hell of it.

The favored torture for the Japanese was to put a log in the pit of your knees, having you kneeling on both knees, with barbed wire wrapped around it, they would tie your hands behind your back, and then leave you in a circle of barbs pointed at your body, for you to eventually fall on when you became too tired to hold yourself up.

Oh yeah...the Japanese were just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO victimized.

F.ucking morons.

Oh, look, the Japanese military are being evil.....I know, let's microwave 200,000 of their civilians, that'll teach em......

I hate to have to repeat myself,

Uh they weren't civilians.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were among the last few Cities in Japan that were not struck, even though they were producing weapons and material for the "War effort"...so that the attrocities of their Army could continue.

Chebob, you're no different than any other moron, opinionated, and arrogant, who has no clue what the Japanese were doing through out the war.

If you want to cry for Civilian deaths, go cry about Dresden, the Germans were comparably more civilized than the Japs, and the Nazis were barely more civilized than the Japs.

The only difference between Japs and Nazis, was that the Nazis were only killing Jews and "Undesirables", the Japs just killed everyone that wasn't a Jap.