This argument is based on my history book vs. your history book. Theres going to be bias on both sides. Theres no way anybody is going to win this argument. Wholesale slaughter of innocents is just that, no matter who commits it. And relations between the US and Japan today are quite good. But for some reason, its not so good between the US and our neighbors to the North who in reality rely on us to protect their security as well. What would Canada do if invaded by a nuclear power? Nothing. If the US wasnt right below you, you would be at the mercy of any powerful invader, so continue to enjoy the security we provide while bad mouthing us, whatever, like I said there is no winning this argument.

I had a couple of professors who were at Los Alamos and worked on the Trinity project. They wre all in favor of it, even after the tests. But when it was dropped on Japan and the truth came out about how Japan had been getting ready to talk surrender, they felt pretty bad. Turnes out that the bombs did not change a single mind of the war cabinet in Japan. Would the war have raged on? I personally believe it would, but many who are far smarter than I don't see it that way.

Had the Japanese Prince approached the US or UK for peace talks rather than the Russians, it would have been very different. It's all moot now, but to make a statement like "The best thing.." is based in opinion founded on hatred and ignorance.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by 27jd
Youre right it is a WORLD site, so I have just as much right to defend my contry from rampant anti-Americanism, as others have to attack it.

Hmmm...well I saw no "defending" in the following statement.

I havent seen one of your posts with anything even remotely positive about America.

Then my original questions stands since you really didn't answer it. Does everyone have to love America?

No. Everyone most certainly does not. The problem is that we Americans are a proud and stubborn people. We may not like our current president (that's for sure) yet at the same time, those nations who depend on us for trade, tourism, protection, need to remember where their "bread is buttered."

We pay taxes to the government- we have purchased the right to complain. Others have not.

Fully agree drbil, while we desire the friendship of our former allies, the way we have been badmouthed on this WORLD site has made me, a democrat and stern Kerry supporter, have slight twinges of desire to vote for Bush just because he has no regard for these fair-weather friendships, while I would never personally act on that, Im afraid others will, and this is going to be close election so these foreigners who hate Bush so much are in effect casting their vote for him indirectly, so enjoy another 4 years of Bush, and hopefully your country doesnt fall on his bad side.

Originally posted by Jakomo

The ATOMIC bombing of two civilian population centers is a form of collective punishment on innocents. Whether or not the Japanese Army in WWII committed atrocities (and they most certainly did), it cannot be used as a justification for the purposeful eradication of hundreds of thousands of people at a non-military target.

You hypocritical wanker, how many millions of innocent civilians in Asia did the Japanese kill purposely. You are lucky you were bombed because if not a US invasion would have resulted in million more of your people killed. Japanese atrocities during WWII are on par with the Nazi's or worse. There will be a reckoning for you one day, China will never forget what you did !!

I thought the Japanese were in the middle of a tedious negotiation for surrender when the US decided to burn 200,000 civillans to death, and sentence their children to a few generations of horrible birth defects...regardless, it was a cowardly and lazy act of fear inducing.

Originally posted by electric squid carpet
I thought the Japanese were in the middle of a tedious negotiation for surrender when the US decided to burn 200,000 civillans to death, and sentence their children to a few generations of horrible birth defects...regardless, it was a cowardly and lazy act of fear inducing.

Only an uncunditional surrender was acceptable, the same as with Germany. Therfore there is no negotiation needed - especially with the murder of so many people from '31-'45. Let's face it the Japanese got off very lightly from WWII compared to the Germans. No other country in WWII practiced biological warfare on not just military but civilian targets as well. China today still suffers from these plagues which emerge every couple of years or so.

US will be the one wary of Japan's intention in acquiring nukes. Japanese will never forget the two bombs.

Japan has the many nuclear power plants, and its high tech capability. Given the permission, Japan can produce nukes in a few months. Japan also have a viable satelite lauching capability, which can be easily converted to missile tech.

As for China, currently India, Pakistan, Russia, and possibly NK all have nukes. In fact, I believe there are secret programs to develop nukes in Japan. Japan is just waiting for a good time to assert its power.

Originally posted by zcheng
US will be the one wary of Japan's intention in acquiring nukes. Japanese will never forget the two bombs.

Japan has the many nuclear power plants, and its high tech capability. Given the permission, Japan can produce nukes in a few months. Japan also have a viable satelite lauching capability, which can be easily converted to missile tech.

As for China, currently India, Pakistan, Russia, and possibly NK all have nukes. In fact, I believe there are secret programs to develop nukes in Japan. Japan is just waiting for a good time to assert its power.

Japan ahd the technology to build the bomb back in the 70's. What is worrying about the Japanese are the massive shipments of plutonium sent to their breeder reactors. This essential turns normal plutonium into super grade plutonium.

In July 1995, a Japanese magazine, Hoseki Gem, reported a statement by an unnamed Japanese politician, saying: "Japan can produce atom bomb within 183 days." People's Daily correctly assesses Japan's nuclear know-how by pointing out that it possesses:

"World's first-rate nuclear energy technology";
"Multiplication reactor technology that has all along been the key and [resolves] difficult points in nuclear technology research";
"Super-strong computer simulation nuclear blasting capability";
"Extremely high-level nuclear warhead-carrying technology"; and that Japan;
Is "actively exploring new technology for obtaining nuclear raw materials";
"Stores astonishing nuclear raw materials," and that by 2010, "Japan's gross plutonium reserves will reach 100 tons, thus making it the world's number 1 country with the largest plutonium storage."

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
For anyone who says it was a good idea obviously have no concern for other peoples lives.

Oh brother! 'Obviously'??? From my perspective, you 'obviously' don't
have all the facts.

I was stationed in Japan for three years and I was able to spend
three days in Hiroshima. I went to peace park. I walked 'the bridge'.
I went to the library at Ground Zero, which was left the way it was when
the bomb was dropped. I went over every inch of that museum.
I saw in the museum the steps with the shadows
of where people had been sitting ... and vaporized. I saw the clothng
that people were wearing. I ALSO saw the pamphlets we dropped on
the city that said exactly what we'd do if they didn't surrender.

They would NEVER stop coming. NEVER. The entire
country was in a cult of Emporer worship. He was their God. He said
to fight to the death of every last Japanese person. That's what they
were going to do. They started it. We finished it. By finishing it we
saved American and Japanese lives. It had to be done.
Thankfully we had a president in office who wasn't afraid to do what
had to be done. He didn't go asking other countries if it was okay
to defend America. He made the right decision. Lives were lost, but
MANY more lives were saved. MANY MANY more - on both sides.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
For anyone who says it was a good idea obviously have no concern for other peoples lives.

Oh brother! 'Obviously'??? From my perspective, you 'obviously' don't
have all the facts.

I was stationed in Japan for three years and I was able to spend
three days in Hiroshima. I went to peace park. I walked 'the bridge'.
I went to the library at Ground Zero, which was left the way it was when
the bomb was dropped. I went over every inch of that museum.
I saw in the museum the steps with the shadows
of where people had been sitting ... and vaporized. I saw the clothng
that people were wearing. I ALSO saw the pamphlets we dropped on
the city that said exactly what we'd do if they didn't surrender.

They would NEVER stop coming. NEVER. The entire
country was in a cult of Emporer worship. He was their God. He said
to fight to the death of every last Japanese person. That's what they
were going to do. They started it. We finished it. By finishing it we
saved American and Japanese lives. It had to be done.
Thankfully we had a president in office who wasn't afraid to do what
had to be done. He didn't go asking other countries if it was okay
to defend America. He made the right decision. Lives were lost, but
MANY more lives were saved. MANY MANY more - on both sides.

At the time we did have a president who was willing to do what he felt had to be done. But he also was horrified by the results. "Dear god, what have I done." He was able to temper resolve with humanity, unlike more current leaders.

Japan at the time did some absoutly horrible things to the Chinese no doubt. Nanking was a sight of unspeakable horrors, it should never be forgotten.

However..

To say that the Chinese will never forget what the Japanese did to them will never result in any growth. The majority of Japanese people live today had nothign to do with what happened in WWII... no it should not be forgotten, but neither should anyone be held responcible for the sins of the father.

There is a great deal of annimosity betwen Japan and a number of asain countries, China for Nanking, Korea for the occupation to name a couple. It is sad that so much hatred still exists.

Wraith

(going to hell for this one) But hey.. if we didn't bomb them.. they never woudl have made all teh Godzilla movies!!! The world should thank us for Mothra!!!

Originally posted by Tassadar
Here the Difference:
Atomic Weapons - Atomic Fission created after conventional trigger heats atoms to required temperature and then splits them. Two explosions occur.

Nuclear Weapons - Nuclear Fission is achieved when when a small conventional explosion accelerates a neutron and it bombards an atom of say, uranium-238. The Uranium is broken into two other elements such as Barium and Krypton while at least three more neutrons are ejected from the original uranium atom and impact into more atoms of uranium. Again, two explosions occur.

I hate be critical of your assessments, but the truth is, the atomic bomb was the birth of the nuclear weapons age.

On 16 July 1945, the world's first nuclear weapon was detonated in Alamogordo, New Mexico, just three weeks prior to using the same type weapon on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.

Here is a little infomation on the way it works:
A mass of Uranium Isotope-235 is surrounded by conventional high explosives that is timed to detonate at precisely the same moment. This action compresses the U-235 into a critical mass that initiates the fission process. This happens within a few millionths of a second, releasing a tremendous amount of energy in the form of heat and Gamma rays.

On 1 November 1952, the United States detonated the worlds first thermonuclear weapon at Ewinetok atoll in the South Pacific. This device was 500 times mere powerful than the device tested in New Mexico.

Here is a little information on the way it works:

It is basically an atomic bomb combined together with a calculated amount of hydrogen isotopes in the form of deterium and tritium. When the atomic device is detonated, extremely high temperatures are created in the range of about 100,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit for a split second. This split second is all that is required to the start the fusion of two heavy hydrogen nuclei into a helium nuclei. The left over particles from this process is in the form of heat and the radiation mostly is the product of the fission weapon that is used to initiate the fusion process.

Answering the thread, I think the United States was correct in making the decision to use the newly found weapon to end a war that had been going into it's 5th year. This saved millions of Japanese lives, not to mention the lives of our American soldiers and Marines who had been slated to invade Japan if the nuclear device failed.

Since then, a nuclear device has not been used in an act of war. Let's just pray it continues to be as such.

The next time I reply a post, I'll check the date!

See, I told you I was still learning!



[edit on 7/9/04 by Intelearthling]

Originally posted by Intelearthling

I hate be critical of your assessments, but the truth is, the atomic bomb was the birth of the nuclear weapons age.

On 16 July 1945, the world's first nuclear weapon was detonated in Alamogordo, New Mexico, just three weeks prior to using the same type weapon on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.

Here is a little infomation on the way it works:
A mass of Uranium Isotope-235 is surrounded by conventional high explosives that is timed to detonate at precisely the same moment. This action compresses the U-235 into a critical mass that initiates the fission process. This happens within a few millionths of a second, releasing a tremendous amount of energy in the form of heat and Gamma rays.

U235 has never been used in implosion devices that is plutonium. The 1st device tested was a plutonium implosion device not U235. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a gun U235 weapon not an implosion device. This was because the were positive this type of nuclear weapon wuold work without a test ( mainly because of its massive over engineering ).

The Nagasaki weapon was the same as the New Mexico test.

Originally posted by zcheng
US will be the one wary of Japan's intention in acquiring nukes. Japanese will never forget the two bombs.

Japan has the many nuclear power plants, and its high tech capability. Given the permission, Japan can produce nukes in a few months. Japan also have a viable satelite lauching capability, which can be easily converted to missile tech.

As for China, currently India, Pakistan, Russia, and possibly NK all have nukes. In fact, I believe there are secret programs to develop nukes in Japan. Japan is just waiting for a good time to assert its power.

Japan is now an ally, why would they attack us? We are supplying them with missle defense systems for defense from Crazy Kim.That was back in the past and was the right thing to do at the time. I had a feeling you would rise up and put down the US military action. The bomb saved more lives than it killed.

Originally posted by TACHYON
Japan is now an ally, why would they attack us? We are supplying them with missle defense systems for defense from Crazy Kim.That was back in the past and was the right thing to do at the time. I had a feeling you would rise up and put down the US military action. The bomb saved more lives than it killed.

I do not dispute the righteousness of droping atomic bombs on Japan.
Japan is a country with high ambitions. Seeking nukes and get rid of US presence are goals they can not pursue openly today.

Here the Difference:
Atomic Weapons - Atomic Fission created after conventional trigger heats atoms to required temperature and then splits them. Two explosions occur.

Nuclear Weapons - Nuclear Fission is achieved when when a small conventional explosion accelerates a neutron and it bombards an atom of say, uranium-238. The Uranium is broken into two other elements such as Barium and Krypton while at least three more neutrons are ejected from the original uranium atom and impact into more atoms of uranium. Again, two explosions occur.

Boo.

You're confusing the difference of Atomic weapons and Nuclear weapons with the difference of traditional Nuclear weapons and Thermonuclear weapons.

Atomic and Nuclear weapons are the exact same, so there's no point trying to compare and contrast them. What you were really trying to do up there was to differentiate between Nuclear and Thermonuclear... and you actually ended up repeating the same description for both of them.

Our ordinary nuclear weapon:

Two (or more) pieces of Fissile material, say Uranium-235 are in the bomb, not touching eachother (probably insulated too). The weight of these pieces combined should add up to the critical mass of the fissile fuel in question, in this case U-235, which is about 50 Kg.

Now, to trigger it, we either use a small explosive to break the insulation between the two, or we use an explosive at one end of a tube to ram one of the pieces to the rest of the pieces, achieving critical mass, and thus setting off massive nuclear decay almost instantly. The result is a instant release of energy so destructive that it blows apart the fissile material before it has a chance to reach anywhere near it's maximum potential (the Nagasaki bomb, at 20 Kt, achieved about 1% efficiency, that is to say that only 1% of the Pu-239 decayed before the structure of the pu-239 ball was blown away completely by it's own blast).


A Thermonuclear bomb:
We use our normal nuclear fission bomb, but we add 2 things: Deutrium Hydrogen and Tritium* Hydrogen somewhere near the fission bomb (and sometimes inside of it). When the fission bomb goes off, the extreme amount of energy released has made it hot enough for a fusion reaction to take place between the Deutrium and Tritium. This has a dual effect: Not only does this new fusion reaction produce an immense amount of energy by itself, it also lets the fission bomb to feed off more neutrons that are coming it's way from the fusion part, and thus allowing it to decay faster than it usually would.

Thermonuclear bombs can be many, many times more powerful than regular nuclear weapons. The most powerful one ever constructed and set off was a 50 megaton bomb called the tsar bomba in the Soviet Union.

*Tritium is highly unstable, so they actually use a different compound which decays at the high heat of fission, leaving Tritium as a by-product, but for the purpose of this post lets just assume it's regular Tritium they put in there.

P.S. Contrary to your post, U-238 CANNOT be used as fissile fuel.

[edit on 10-9-2004 by naked_turk]

Maybe it's just me, but killing anyone, no matter the means no matter the reason, is not right. The lesser evil is still evil.

Bombing Japan was wrong.

When will everyone take a step back, look at our little, blue planet and realise we're all just wasting time fighting, when we can enrich our lives with greater human endeavour.

And another thought, isn't it funny how if you take a step down the evolutionary tree, you find creatures that, yes fight, but do not create the same kind devastation and pain as humans?

As I said, maybe it's just me...

CB

What a dickhead! Yeah you got most of it right, but what you failed to mention is that at that time, America was a bankrupt Corporation, so they were not allowed to attack any country, so says the laws of bankruptcy!
What you also failed to mention was the small fact of the Postmaster General placing a $1 stamp on each of the bombs, then signing the "bills of lading" saying the words, "just to make it official". That's the only possible way the bombs could have left the country, Ho! Ho! Ho! Merry Christmas.
When were you gonna tell us about that one?
Maybe at the trial? What trial? 272,000 people are about to launch a mother of a lawsuit for Genocide and each person lokss like receiving about $3 billion each....have a nice day America!
I hope you all get what you deserve, you murderous bastards!

Originally posted by MiStErBeLLaTrIx
Dropping the First Atomic Bomb

At 2:45 A.M. local time, the Enola Gay, a B-29 bomber loaded with an atomic bomb, took off from the US air base on Tinian Island in the western Pacific. Six and a half hours later, at 8:15 A.M. Japan time, the bomb was dropped and it exploded a minute later at an estimated altitude of 580 +- 20 meters over central Hiroshima.

The Hiroshima Bomb
Size: length - 3 meters, diameter - 0.7 meters.
Weight: 4 tons.
Nuclear material: Uranium 235.
Energy released: equivalent to 12.5 kilotons of TNT.
Code name: "Little Boy".

Initial Explosive Conditions
Maximum temperature at burst point: several million degrees centigrade. A fireball of 15-meters radius formed in 0.1 millisecond, with a temperature of 300,000 degrees centigrade, and expanded to its huge maximum size in one second. The top of the atomic cloud reached an altitude of 17,000 meters.

Black Rain
Radioactive debris was deposited by "black rain" that fell heavily for over an hour over a wide area.

Demaging Effects of the Atomic Bomb
Thermal Hear. Intense thermal heat emitted by the fireball caused severe burns and loss of eyesight. Thermal burns of bare skin occurred as far as 3.5 kilometers from ground zero (directly below the burst point). Most people exposed to thermal rays within 1-kilometer radius of ground zero died. Tile and glass melted; all combustible materials were consumed.
Blast. An atomic explosion causes an enormous shock wave followed instanteneously by a rapid expansion of air called the blast; these represent roughtly half the explosion's released energy. Maximum wind pressure of the blast: 35 tons per square meter. Maximum wind velocity: 440 meters per second. Wooden houses within 2.3 kilometers of ground zero collapsed. Concrete buildings near ground zero (thus hit by the blast from above) had ceilings crushed and windows and doors blown off. Many people were trapped under fallen strunctures and burned to death.
Radiation. People exposure within 500 meters of ground zero was fatal. People exposed at distances of 3 to 5 kilometers later showed symptoms of aftereffects, including radiation-induced cancers.

Bodily Injuries
Acute symptoms. Symptoms appearing in the first four months were called acute. Besides burns and wounds, they included: general malaise, fatigue, headaches, loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, fever, abnormally low white blood cell count, bloody discharge, anemia, loss of hair.

Aftereffects. Prolonged injuries were associated with aftereffects. The most serious in this category were: keloids (massive scar tissue on burned areas), cataracts, leukemia and other cancers.

Atomic Demographics
Population. The estimated pre-bomb population was 300,000 to 400,000. Because official documents were burned, the exact population is uncertain.
Deaths. With an uncertain population figure, the death toll could only be estimated. According to data submitted to the United Nations by Hiroshima City in 1976, the death count reached 140,000 (plus or minus 10,000) by the end of December, 1945.

Health Card Holders. Persons qualifying for treatment under the A-bomb Victims Medical Care law of 1957 received Health Cards; holders as of March 31, 1990, numbered 352,550.

Nagasaki. The atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki exploded at 11:02 A.M. on August 9. Using plutonium with an explosive power of 20 kilotons of TNT-equivalent, it left an estimated 70,000 dead by the end of 1945, although both population and the deaths are uncertain.


If we had not dropped the bomb Americans would be eating fishhead soup if even that.

All's fair in love and war, too bad we didn't drop more!

America drops atom bombs on Japan eh?
Gee whillikers! I must have missed that one! When did that happen?
How come a country in bankruptcy can afford to drop ATOM bombs on another sovereign country without authorization??????
YES!! Bankruptcy!!
You bloody fools...