Nukes best thing that happend to Japan.

Originally posted by nathraq
Fact is, they attacked us first. We were considered a paper tiger We were screaming for revenge. We obliterated two of their cities. Sent a clear message to everyone else in the world: Back off, or else.

Sept 11, 2001: We were attacked again. We were consideredfat and lazy. We were screaming for revenge. We conquered Afganistan. We conquered Iraq. Sent another message to the world: WE are the supreme force on this planet. Back off, or else.

haha...why yes it did..but do you think this is a GOOD message? All it said was that we like to blow shi-t up, and then justify it with the attacks.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Could have put it into a harbor, made them watch teh explosion. Could have jsut blockaded them. Just like German civilians were not cupable for the actions of the SS, these civilians were not at fault for what happened in China.

Weapons of mass destruction are the absolute incarnation of man's capacity to destroy. The person who uses them in the incarnation of all that evil.

DE

exactly...japanese didnt go bombing american cities, they took out a naval base. we dropped the most powerful weapons on earth (at the time) on two of Japans largest cities knowing and hoping to kill millions of people.

Originally posted by Tassadar
Alright FM, one of knowledge,

Those were atomic bombs used in Japan. The first nuclear weapon wasn't invented until 1957, and rigorous testing began in the 1960's. A nuclear weapon has never been used on any country in agression or defense, ever, in history.

Here the Difference:
Atomic Weapons - Atomic Fission created after conventional trigger heats atoms to required temperature and then splits them. Two explosions occur.

Nuclear Weapons - Nuclear Fission is achieved when when a small conventional explosion accelerates a neutron and it bombards an atom of say, uranium-238. The Uranium is broken into two other elements such as Barium and Krypton while at least three more neutrons are ejected from the original uranium atom and impact into more atoms of uranium. Again, two explosions occur.

I also must disagree with the general consensus on this thread. If you say that, you could, in theory, say that America deserved 9/11, which, I know, they didn't.

*booooo-booooo* Osama bad.

Tassadar

I've already been through this argument with someone a long time ago. I was also saying that nukes and atomic bombs are two different things. Well, they're not. They're both considered nukes. The process may be a bit different, but they are still nukes.

Originally posted by Satyr

Originally posted by Tassadar
Alright FM, one of knowledge,

Those were atomic bombs used in Japan. The first nuclear weapon wasn't invented until 1957, and rigorous testing began in the 1960's. A nuclear weapon has never been used on any country in agression or defense, ever, in history.

Here the Difference:
Atomic Weapons - Atomic Fission created after conventional trigger heats atoms to required temperature and then splits them. Two explosions occur.

Nuclear Weapons - Nuclear Fission is achieved when when a small conventional explosion accelerates a neutron and it bombards an atom of say, uranium-238. The Uranium is broken into two other elements such as Barium and Krypton while at least three more neutrons are ejected from the original uranium atom and impact into more atoms of uranium. Again, two explosions occur.

I also must disagree with the general consensus on this thread. If you say that, you could, in theory, say that America deserved 9/11, which, I know, they didn't.

*booooo-booooo* Osama bad.

Tassadar

I've already been through this argument with someone a long time ago. I was also saying that nukes and atomic bombs are two different things. Well, they're not. They're both considered nukes. The process may be a bit different, but they are still nukes.

Yea I always thought of the word "nuke" simply being a slang referring to all types of warheads. I didn't think nuke was in a class of it's own.

Quick question.. What would you rather be speaking? German, Japanese, or English?

I think at the time it was a wise choice and a quick end to the war.

Harsh reality.. but consider the question.

All I can say is if I am attacked I will take your ass out in the most brutal manner I can manage at the time.
Make an example out of you for the next asshole that wants some, and I will not care in the least how badly I hurt you in the process.

Now why would I expect ANY country to be different?

Howdy folks...

exactly...japanese didnt go bombing american cities

Shoktek...

This is not entirly accurate, Japan tried in a rather comical way to do this, which only succed in killing 6 hikers...

Do you remember the balloon bombs ( called Fu-Go ) that were launched from Japan ?

Jap Balloon Blew Up
Near Tacoma Feb. 28;
One Found Near Orting
-----

Japan's weird balloon-bomb attacks on North America, during which at least 228 balloons or bombing devices landed in the United States, Canada and Mexico, dwindled sharply in the three months before Japan surrendered.
Now that censorship has been lifted it can be revealed that on Feb. 27, a balloon exploded in the air near Goldendale, Wash., and the next day another blew up in the air 10 miles northwest of Tacoma.
Another one of the balloons landed on a farm between Puyallup and Orting on March 3. Investigating officers were sworn to secrecy at the time of the discovery and the farmer who notified them of his find did not confirm until Thursday his suspicions of it being a Jap balloon.


Land on Mt. Rainier
It was also reported that five or six of the balloons were found in the Mount Rainier park area, but no damage was done.
Another one of the balloons landed on telephone wires at Keyport, near Bremerton. An FBI demolition squad was called after telephone linemen cut down the missile.
It was learned that one of the balloons hit a military objective but no damage was done. The balloon landed on the runway at Paine field, an army airfield at Everett.
The Tacoma office of the state patrol was the "funneling" point for reports of discovery of the balloons. All reports received were then referred to the army and the FBI.

www.stelzriede.com...

www.seanet.com...






[Edited on 28-1-2004 by Yoda]

hah...yoda I did not know that, thanks for the info...but, little bombs flying around is nowhere near an atomic bomb which our country tested and knew it would obliterate the entire city. We are the only country who has used such a devastating weapon against civilians in order to make a statement...

Originally posted by IgnoranceDenied
Quick question.. What would you rather be speaking? German, Japanese, or English?

Do you *really* think there is difference for me? No one of those is my native tongue.

Conquered by Japanese, Germans, British or former British don't suppose a difference.

About the two nuclear devices used over Japan, you had an alternative: bombing in a not populated zone of Japan. Just the vision of the atomic explosion would have caused them to surrender.

Even the bomber tripulation was in desmay as well: they didn't expect such a huge explosion.

The Atomic bombs on Hiroshiman and Nagasaki were necessary, a lot more people would have died if the war had dragged on. We should have also nuked Germany..heck add afghanistan too, other wise they would not be fighting us today.

About the two nuclear devices used over Japan, you had an alternative: bombing in a not populated zone of Japan. Just the vision of the atomic explosion would have caused them to surrender.

Nonsense. The Japanese made no moves to surrender after the first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. And elements of the military which were running the show in Japan were reluctant concerning unconditional surrender even after the SECOND bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.

Originally posted by Shoktek
hah...yoda I did not know that, thanks for the info...but, little bombs flying around is nowhere near an atomic bomb which our country tested and knew it would obliterate the entire city. We are the only country who has used such a devastating weapon against civilians in order to make a statement...

do you have any idea what would of hapened if we didnt use those weapons?

the allies would invade the main islands of japan. thousands of soldiers would of been killed in the initial attack.

then you have hundres of civilians comitting suicide. oh yes the japanese did that when we got colse to their home son other islands. they just threw themslevs off of cliffs. theres this one pice of footage of a mother throwing her baby off a cliff then jumping off her self. now imagin if a whole country did that.


when dealing with fanatics you have to make a choice like this. 100,000 or 1,000,000 or more lives. what would you chose if you had to chose? the lesser of two evils.

do you have any idea what would of hapened if we didnt use those weapons?

the allies would invade the main islands of japan. thousands of soldiers would of been killed in the initial attack.

then you have hundres of civilians comitting suicide. oh yes the japanese did that when we got colse to their home son other islands. they just threw themslevs off of cliffs. theres this one pice of footage of a mother throwing her baby off a cliff then jumping off her self. now imagin if a whole country did that.


when dealing with fanatics you have to make a choice like this. 100,000 or 1,000,000 or more lives. what would you chose if you had to chose? the lesser of two evils.

The differences between D-Day and the planned invasion of Japan were astounding. The Germans anticipated an Allied marine invasion of France at Pas-De-Calais, not Normandy. The planned American invasion of Japan, "Downfall," was to have taken place in two stages, one at Kyushu in November 1945 (Operation Olympic), and the other on Honshu (Operation Coronet) in early 1946. The problem is the Japanese guessed correctly as to the location of the initial invasion, Kyushu. Based on the amount of casualties inflicted on the US by Japanese Kamikaze and suicide warriors at Okinawa, the Japanese planned a similar assault.

At Okinawa the Americans suffered some 12,600 deaths, 65,600 casualties, including the loss of 30 ships and the deaths of 5,000 sailors. Virtually all 70,000 Japanese troops defending Okinawa were killed (Japanese typically refused to surrender), and over 100,000 civilians died during the battle. COnsidering the they knew where the invasion was to have taken place, imagine the losses that would be inflicted on Americans when the Japanese concentrated millions of troops and thousands of kamikazes on defending the homeland.

Originally posted by Tassadar
Alright FM, one of knowledge,

Those were atomic bombs used in Japan. The first nuclear weapon wasn't invented until 1957, and rigorous testing began in the 1960's. A nuclear weapon has never been used on any country in agression or defense, ever, in history.

Here the Difference:
Atomic Weapons - Atomic Fission created after conventional trigger heats atoms to required temperature and then splits them. Two explosions occur.

Nuclear Weapons - Nuclear Fission is achieved when when a small conventional explosion accelerates a neutron and it bombards an atom of say, uranium-238. The Uranium is broken into two other elements such as Barium and Krypton while at least three more neutrons are ejected from the original uranium atom and impact into more atoms of uranium. Again, two explosions occur.

I also must disagree with the general consensus on this thread. If you say that, you could, in theory, say that America deserved 9/11, which, I know, they didn't.

*booooo-booooo* Osama bad.

Tassadar

Very, Very, Good point. I'm surprised FM got away with that stupid statement. Calling them Jap's Show his level of decency

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages."
---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II
www.geocities.com...

Wth this comment, I think he sums it up quite well. It was true...American had beaten down the Japanese and it was clear that t was not going to last too much longer. Especially since the Soviet Union had just gotten ivolved as well.

Now, I wish everyone would get a chance to go to the Atomic Bomb Museum here in Japan. I had tears going through there. It was just horrible. There were literally pictures of kids with their skin peeling off and melted. Pictures of mothers holding their babes and becoming one big glob.

www.boisestate.edu...
The intense heat generated from the bomb ranged from 7200 to 1000 degrees fahrenheit. Thousands were instantly killed, vaporized from the searing heat. Others were terribly disfigured with limbs melted from their bodies and skin peeling off in large strips. The intense heat melted the eyeballs of some who had stared in wonder at the blast. "Big black flies appeared and tried to lay eggs on human flesh. The injured were so weak that they could not brush away the flies that nestled in their hands and necks." (Doomsday) said survivor Michiko Watanabe. Throughout the city, parents and children were discovering one another wounded or dead. "A mother, driven half-mad while looking for her child, was calling his name. At last she found him. His head looked like a boiled octopus. His eyes were half-closed, and his mouth was white, pursed, and swollen."

Here is a realistic debate about the bombing. Was it right or wrong?
shs.westport.k12.ct.us...

Eye Witness accounts: (this is something everyone should ready)
www3.telus.net...
www.atomicarchive.com...

People, please read these... It seems many are non-chalant about the dropping of the bomb... these are just a few sites.. There are tons.
The main thing that the bomb taught us was that we will certainly destroy ourselves with our own technology.

This sums up quite well what many think, although it is rare for Japanese to say it this straight. yumiko57.hp.infoseek.co.jp...

Japanese in general: Japanese do not express themselves the same way as much of the world. They will not usually force their opinion. Even if they disagree, they will usually politely say maybe instead of a direct No. This is curious for us foreigners and something that I have had to come to understand over the years here. Japanese know that this is an atrocity, trust me, there are many still alive living from birth-defects that happened due to the radiation. They would rather come out and say we were bad, lets move on. It is easier than saying who did what to who.

Was it necessary? Who knows.... The only thing that I know is that we are killing each other. I think the lessons of the past have taught us nothing in warfare or how to get along with each other on this planet. The leaders never suffer unless they lose. The main people that suffer are all the innocent people that are killed to make the leaders ends come true. It is still happening today.

.... The innocent are the ones that suffer.....
I hope we can all find peace one day.


[edit on 10-7-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages."
---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II
www.geocities.com...

Wth this comment, I think he sums it up quite well. It was true...American had beaten down the Japanese and it was clear that t was not going to last too much longer.

Based on the actual sequence of events in August 1945, Leahy was wrong. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Japanese planned any surrender even following the dropping of the first bomb. The did nothing following the firebombing of Tokyo in March of 1945, and nothing between August 6th and August 9th but assess casualties in Hiroshima (70-80%). Our "Magic" intelligence allowed us great insight into Japanese policy and action, and none of it pointed to Japanese willingness to surrender.

Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback
The did nothing following the firebombing of Tokyo in March of 1945, and nothing between August 6th and August 9th but assess casualties in Hiroshima (70-80%). Our "Magic" intelligence allowed us great insight into Japanese policy and action, and none of it pointed to Japanese willingness to surrender.

Are you privy to the inner working? Have you heard about the negotiations with the Soviets going bad? It is not working for Japan. It was obvious. But, that s neither here nor there as everything with both governments are kept secret. I also would believe that the Commander has a little more information than you and I have. Think about that.

But, we can argue all we want on what coulda woulda shoulda happened.
I think we need to use it all as a learning experience that obsiously the world has not learned. I think we need to study more to get along. That is my point of the post above.

Please read the debates and the survivors accounts. Probably most will not.

Did someone dig this back up? Because that news is sooo old.

Are you privy to the inner working?

Actually...

Have you heard about the negotiations with the Soviets going bad? It is not working for Japan. It was obvious. But, that s neither here nor there as everything with both governments are kept secret. I also would believe that the Commander has a little more information than you and I have. Think about that.

It's almost 60 years after the fact. The information is widely disseminated now. Japanese deeds were two-faced. On one hand they fought kamikaze warfare in Okinawa and mobilized for an invasion of their homeland while a few agents (possibly only 3) of the Japanese imperial leaderships sued for peace (on their terms). That does not equal surrender. Actions speak louder than words.

How can you call the Japanese war machine innocent and complain we are only killing each other?

I dont really see how you can label someone who disects another being alive a human being.

en.wikipedia.org...

It was reasons like this that we had to drop the bomb on Japan.