The Horten brothers if I recall were not part of operation paperclip. One ended up in Argentina (I think), and the other was a General in the West German A/F.

That being said, I would be surprised if Northrup did not get acces to thier data at the very least or may have compared noted with the brothers post war.

does anyone else seem to think this post has started in the middle and not the start............Im confused

Originally posted by minority2000uk
does anyone else seem to think this post has started in the middle and not the start............Im confused

Huh? now you are confusing me elaborate please

Well no link background info just seems you go straight into your theory before giving background info of any sort......and for a innocent person like me it confusing to me.

First, this "document" if real has at least been retyped since no WW2 documents ever look this neat and clean. But, if that is so, there certainly should be a disclaimer stating that fact to make it legit.

There are some errors, even assuming the document real. There were only two Horton 9 aircraft built. One was not fitted with engines. The other was and it flew. It had no control surfaces and no computer avionics yet it flew very, very well. It crashed on landing when one engine failed but as of March 17, 1945, less than two months before the war ended, the Horton IX v-2 (Versuchs 2) was being flight tested at Oranienberg, not Rechlin although this is a small point. The third "Horton 9" was actually built by Gotha and given the designation Gotha 229. It differed slightly in that the air intakes were less recessed. The Gotha 229 prototype never flew and was never even fully assembled. Its pictures are the ones people see when discussing the Horton 9. It ended up partially assembled in the US museum in Maryland and was the aircraft the Northrop engineers secretly visited when designing the B-2. In fact, the Germans found out accidently of the low radar return of the Horton 9 and plans were made for a radar reflecting paint job which they were already using on U-boats.

One other thing. The Horton 9 flew considerably faster than 950 km/hr but the former Allied Powers never wanted to talk about that. They made up the 1000 km/hr story. It was probably an oversight in the redaction process which allowed the secret to come out. I'd go on but I can't tell everything yet.

One other thing. That name is Prandel not Prandtel. Dr. Prandel's work, if not Dr. Prandel himself, was utilized in three or four designs of German flying discs. They should have asked him.

[edit on 29-5-2005 by Forschung]

Originally posted by Forschung
It ended up partially assembled in the US museum in Maryland and was the aircraft the Northrop engineers secretly visited when designing the B-2. In fact, the Germans found out accidently of the low radar return of the Horton 9 and plans were made for a radar reflecting paint job which they were already using on U-boats.

And you got this information from where exactly ? lol, most of the B-2's shape was designed using complex algorithms, run through the days state of the art computers. lol just beacuase they look kind if the same, doesn't mean they have anything in common.
Besides most aviation authors think that the B-2's stealth comes not from the shape but another system altogether. What that system is, is still speculation, but many talk about some type of ionization of the wing surfaces.

One other thing. The Horton 9 flew considerably faster than 950 km/hr but the former Allied Powers never wanted to talk about that. They made up the 1000 km/hr story. It was probably an oversight in the redaction process which allowed the secret to come out. I'd go on but I can't tell everything yet.

So ummm ... what are you saying that the H-9 was supersonic ? Whilst the Germans did posess the only supersonic wind tunnel, none of their production designs ever broke the sound barrier.
lol you imply that you have some type of secret knowlege of the H-9, what sort of job do you have ?



[edit on 29-5-2005 by rogue1]

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by Forschung
It ended up partially assembled in the US museum in Maryland and was the aircraft the Northrop engineers secretly visited when designing the B-2. In fact, the Germans found out accidently of the low radar return of the Horton 9 and plans were made for a radar reflecting paint job which they were already using on U-boats.

And you got this information from where exactly ? lol, most of the B-2's shape was designed using complex algorithms, run through the days state of the art computers. lol just beacuase they look kind if the same, doesn't mean they have anything in common.
Besides most aviation authors think that the B-2's stealth comes not from the shape but another system altogether. What that system is, is still speculation, but many talk about some type of ionization of the wing surfaces.

One other thing. The Horton 9 flew considerably faster than 950 km/hr but the former Allied Powers never wanted to talk about that. They made up the 1000 km/hr story. It was probably an oversight in the redaction process which allowed the secret to come out. I'd go on but I can't tell everything yet.

So ummm ... what are you saying that the H-9 was supersonic ? Whilst the Germans did posess the only supersonic wind tunnel, none of their production designs ever broke the sound barrier.
lol you imply that you have some type of secret knowlege of the H-9, what sort of job do you have ?



[edit on 29-5-2005 by rogue1]

Well Rogue1, how the worm turns. I'll tell you what you told me on another thread. "You must be really lazy" and I will add to that "ill read" since this information is cited almost everywhere. But just for you: I believe the first time I heard this was circa 1997: Hitlers Geheimobjekte Thuerigen or title very close, contact Heinrich-JungVerlagsgesellschaft mbH, Zelia Mehlis, D-98544, next it was mentioned in Karl-Heinz Zunneck's Geheimtechnologien, Wunderwaffen Und Irdischen Facetten Des UFO-Phaenomens 50 Jahre Desinformation und die Folgen, CTT-Verlag, Suhl, next Klaus-Peter Rothkugel "Geheimnis der deutschen Flugscheiben", next Paul LViolette, Ph.D. in the Thomas Valone edited "Electrogravitic Systems Reports on A New Propulsion Methodology, Integrity Research Inst. Washington, D.C. and I seem to remember Nick Cook telling the tale in his The Hunt For Zero Point. Besides some kook in England or Scotland whose alias is Matthews reported it in his book of afterbirth and it has been discussed widly on video, TV, interview, etc. Are you living under a rock?

Complex computer driven algorithims---as if the Germans didn't know math? Do you know, Rogue1, about the Konrad Zuse computers at Peenemuende and at the Kammler facility--the Z-3 and Z-4? Did you know they invented magnetic tape and computer programs for their computers? Do a google search on "Konrad Zuse".

While you are searching, do one on "Hans Guido Mutke". Mutke put an Me 262 in a power dive right through the sound barrier in 1945. Sorry Chuck! Mutke is now a medical doctor in Germany and, since Unification, can talk about it. But the Horton 9 was even faster than the Me 262. As stated, I have the documentation, taken off microfilm from a FOIA request. It was given to someone and will appear in a book soon.

"what sort of job do you have?" Who the frick cares. The information came from where I said it did--check it. It certainly wasn't handed to me on the internet as I am doing for you. You know Rogue1, rudness will get you intellectually body-slammed by everyone if and when they find the opportunity.

^^^ you haven't answered any of my questions, lol. Quite frankly I don;t know what half your ramble has to to with the H-9 and B2, you seem to be talking about something different. Typical though when someone has been pulled up on their BS.

Konrad Zuse's machine was extremely basic and wasn't multipurpose. If you think that some WW2 calculating machines compare to modern day computers then you are very sadly misinformed.

Hell they need supercomputers to calculate the radar lobes of a given object.

What do elcectrogravitic systems have to do with the H-9 exactly ? Nothng DUH.

You may be able to talk #e to someone who knows nothing about the subject, but not me.


PS. Oh yeah, speaking about Nick Cook, he is one of the avaition authors who believes that the B-2 uses some other stealth technology otheer than shape and paint lol. Maybe you should reread the book. He says nothing about the H-9 influencing the design of the B2.

While you are searching, do one on "Hans Guido Mutke". Mutke put an Me 262 in a power dive right through the sound barrier in 1945. Sorry Chuck! Mutke is now a medical doctor in Germany and, since Unification, can talk about it. But the Horton 9 was even faster than the Me 262. As stated, I have the documentation, taken off microfilm from a FOIA request. It was given to someone and will appear in a book soon.

LOL, what an accomplishment. Hell a British Grandslam bomb achieved the speed of sound just from being dropped out of an aircraft.
It is widely accepted for a plane to be classed as supersonic it has to break the sound barrier in level flight.


[edit on 29-5-2005 by rogue1]

Nice work bios, good to see someone looking at this from a logical perspective. Very refreshing

Originally posted by rogue1
Nice work bios, good to see someone looking at this from a logical perspective. Very refreshing

Is incorrect information logical and refreshing for you? There is nothing about this post which is correct. In fact, it is so bad that it doesn't warrent a response. It is just American aerospace fantasy.

Originally posted by Forschung

Originally posted by rogue1
Nice work bios, good to see someone looking at this from a logical perspective. Very refreshing

Is incorrect information logical and refreshing for you? There is nothing about this post which is correct. In fact, it is so bad that it doesn't warrent a response. It is just American aerospace fantasy.

Prove it wrong with reliable information instead of dismissing this information so quickly. Your dismisal with nothing but insults is no doubt an indication of the lack of substatiated information on your part.

The information I posted is absolutely correct.

Here's a news flash - Even Jack Northrop had no idea the B-2 was going to be a flying wing until the designs were finalized.

Unfortunately you strike me as someone who wouldn't care about that either. Could it be that it is you who lives in the fantasy world of unsubstatiated claims and nationalistic fervor for the fatherland or something equally lacking in honest truthseeking?
blah blah blah.
America sucks.
Blah blah blah.
Americans are liars and scum.
Blah blah blah.
Get a life.



[edit on 5/29/2005 by bios]

I agree about the Me 262. I was going to post myself as I believe that Willy Messerschmitt himself said that the airframe of the 262 was incapable of more than M=0.86 without disentegrating and that this claim was later proved by the RAE at Farnborough.

Well, I don't know where to start. Many Me262s were lost on power dives at top speed because they crashed into the ground. The assumption was made that they had gone supersonic and the control surfaces could not handle that speed. The thing about Mutke is that he knew about the earlier crashes yet put his aircraft into a power dive to assist a fellow pilot being attacked regardless of the danger. The fact is that he was not the first person to break the sound barrier but for whatever reason, he was the first person to survive breaking the sound barrier and that is what is so interesting about his story. One article I read said that a professor somewere in Germany was working on the physics behind survivability of a Me 262 in a +mach1 setting.

Jack Northrup was long retired when the B-2 was built. I really don't know what all the fuss is about here, the facts are so well documented. Northrup built a fighter version of a flying wing which was finished during or just after WW2. It had no connection whatsoever with Horton. During the 1950s and 1960s Northrup built two models of flying wing bombers. One with propellors and one refitted with jets. The interest in flying wings at the time was for long distance bombing and the greater flying efficiency of a flying wing to do that. Every German aircraft manufacturer recognized this during the war and almost all had designs for big flying wing bombers. If Northrup used or needed any of this information, it was available through governmet sources to Northrup. Northrup would have been neglegent if they had not checked there is no record of any connection that I know of. Then, we move to the B-2 era. If you take a look at the Horton9 you can see with your own eyes that it has resemblence to the B-2, the air intakes are recessed as are the exhausts in exactly the same manner as on the B-2. The Horton 9 was a stealth aircraft and was to have had radar-reflecting paint applied to its already low radar return. The engineers at Northrup knew about the Horton 9 and there had been numerous government reports on the Horton 9 as will as other Horton flying wings and flying wings designed by all the other big wartime German aeonautical firms. The Northrup engineers wanted to see a "living" example so they traveled from California to, I believe it was the National Aeronautical and Space Museum in Maryland (near D.C.) where the third-ever Horton 9 was located. This was actually a Gotha 229, slightly different from the Horton 9 but Kammler had decided to build the Horton 9 at Gotha, near the Jonas Valley where other high-value items where being produced (including the ant-hill assembly line for the Me262). The Northrup engineers came, saw and left. That is the story pure and simple.

Originally posted by Forschung
That is the story pure and simple.

You see, by this point, you should have just deleted your entire post and admitted defeat.

Yea, you have not provided a single link or source for your information, you have only stated titles of things we can't even understand. Does this make you feel good that you can just slap on a bunch of titles together?

Look, just walk away before 3 quaters of the board proves you severly wrong and embarrasses you, because believe me, it has happened to me.

As stated before, the B-2 has no connection to the Horton flying wings, it wasn't even going to be a bat shaped flying wing, more like a flying diamond, but it was revised as stated above.

As for Northrop and horton being connection, I really don't know, I haven't read up on it or anything.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by Forschung

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by Forschung
It ended up partially assembled in the US museum in Maryland and was the aircraft the Northrop engineers secretly visited when designing the B-2. In fact, the Germans found out accidently of the low radar return of the Horton 9 and plans were made for a radar reflecting paint job which they were already using on U-boats.

And you got this information from where exactly ? lol, most of the B-2's shape was designed using complex algorithms, run through the days state of the art computers. lol just beacuase they look kind if the same, doesn't mean they have anything in common.
Besides most aviation authors think that the B-2's stealth comes not from the shape but another system altogether. What that system is, is still speculation, but many talk about some type of ionization of the wing surfaces.

One other thing. The Horton 9 flew considerably faster than 950 km/hr but the former Allied Powers never wanted to talk about that. They made up the 1000 km/hr story. It was probably an oversight in the redaction process which allowed the secret to come out. I'd go on but I can't tell everything yet.

So ummm ... what are you saying that the H-9 was supersonic ? Whilst the Germans did posess the only supersonic wind tunnel, none of their production designs ever broke the sound barrier.
lol you imply that you have some type of secret knowlege of the H-9, what sort of job do you have ?



[edit on 29-5-2005 by rogue1]

Well Rogue1, how the worm turns. I'll tell you what you told me on another thread. "You must be really lazy" and I will add to that "ill read" since this information is cited almost everywhere. But just for you: I believe the first time I heard this was circa 1997: Hitlers Geheimobjekte Thuerigen or title very close, contact Heinrich-JungVerlagsgesellschaft mbH, Zelia Mehlis, D-98544, next it was mentioned in Karl-Heinz Zunneck's Geheimtechnologien, Wunderwaffen Und Irdischen Facetten Des UFO-Phaenomens 50 Jahre Desinformation und die Folgen, CTT-Verlag, Suhl, next Klaus-Peter Rothkugel "Geheimnis der deutschen Flugscheiben", next Paul LViolette, Ph.D. in the Thomas Valone edited "Electrogravitic Systems Reports on A New Propulsion Methodology, Integrity Research Inst. Washington, D.C. and I seem to remember Nick Cook telling the tale in his The Hunt For Zero Point. Besides some kook in England or Scotland whose alias is Matthews reported it in his book of afterbirth and it has been discussed widly on video, TV, interview, etc. Are you living under a rock?

Complex computer driven algorithims---as if the Germans didn't know math? Do you know, Rogue1, about the Konrad Zuse computers at Peenemuende and at the Kammler facility--the Z-3 and Z-4? Did you know they invented magnetic tape and computer programs for their computers? Do a google search on "Konrad Zuse".

While you are searching, do one on "Hans Guido Mutke". Mutke put an Me 262 in a power dive right through the sound barrier in 1945. Sorry Chuck! Mutke is now a medical doctor in Germany and, since Unification, can talk about it. But the Horton 9 was even faster than the Me 262. As stated, I have the documentation, taken off microfilm from a FOIA request. It was given to someone and will appear in a book soon.

"what sort of job do you have?" Who the frick cares. The information came from where I said it did--check it. It certainly wasn't handed to me on the internet as I am doing for you. You know Rogue1, rudness will get you intellectually body-slammed by everyone if and when they find the opportunity.

Here Shattered Skys, since you don't read very well, I posted the references again for you. Read them and weep--if you can read at all. I am not saying the Northrup engineers visited the Horton 9, all these other people are saying it and plenty more. But these are enough references for you and Rogue 1 to start with. Is there anything you don't understand about these references?

Originally posted by Forschung
Here Shattered Skys, since you don't read very well, I posted the references again for you. Read them and weep--if you can read at all. I am not saying the Northrup engineers visited the Horton 9, all these other people are saying it and plenty more. But these are enough references for you and Rogue 1 to start with. Is there anything you don't understand about these references?

Hmmm, this board is in English - so post some English references if you want to hvae any credibilty. Quite frankly most of your claims about German superscience are completely outlandish.
Gee, if someones written a book about it it must be true LOL.
Look Forschung, the Germans lost the war 60 years ago, simple as that.

Forschung, re your claim about Mutke (Sp?) being the first man to survive exceeding M=1.0. I say again, not in an Me 262 he didn't. the planes DESIGNER knew it was not capable of more than M=0.86 and post war research at Farnborough PROVED it. I dare say that the effect of diving the 262 at or near to this limit would have been very much like what we know know the 'sound barrier' to have felt like but he was approaching the limit of the airframe not the speed of sound, this has been scientifically proven while Mutke merely 'believes' he went supersonic, do you see the difference?.

Now moving onto the flying wing debate. Northrop was working on flying wings before the war and before anyhting was know about the Hortens work. It has happened quite a few times that entirely independant research has come up with the same solutions to a problem (the design of the Bell X-1 and Miles M.52 is a case in point). If Northrop did have contact with the Hortens it would have been by way of 'mutual interest' rather than gaining tech.

Also I find the talk (elsewhere on this board) that the B-2 is based upon the B-49 just a laughable as the talk that it owes anything to the Horten.

Just why would a state of the art stealth bomber be based upon an airframe designed in the 1940's? It is no more credible than saying the B-1 was based upon the company's 1940's B-45 Jet bomber. The B-2 and the YB-49 share a wingspan, a leading edge sweep angle and an overall aerodynamic philosophy, however these three elements are but the tip of the iceberg in the overall design of these two aircraft.