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Freedom Of Speech, Yeah Boy, Just Watch What You Say

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posted on May, 27 2005 @ 11:32 AM
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I hope someone notices the incredible irony of my subject vs the song written about below


On May 10th, an 8 year old girl wanted to sing a song for the school's talent show. The song she chose is one of my favorites, Rich Mullen's Awesome God. It contains lyrics such as "Our God is an awesome God He reigns from Heaven above with wisdom, power and love, our God is an awesome God."

In the case Tinker vs. Des Moines, the courts said students did not hang up their first ammendment rights upon entering the school house. Yet, that's exactly what this New Jersey school is doing to this 8 year old. The school, Frenchtown (
) Elementary School, said it was inappropriate in school. Say what, now?

The girl's mother, Maryanne Turton, went to the school board meeting that night and complained. She was told three days later by Joyce Brennan, the school superintendent and principal, that the religious content made it inappropriate at school. At the same time, a scene from MacBeth which depicted boiling animals and witchcraft was deemed appropriate.

She attempted to sue the school to allow her daughter to have her constitutional rights, but the judge rejected the emergency attempt at compelling the school to allow her to perform, but is allowing the lawsuit to continue.




posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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New Jersey is ultra liberal and blows which ever way the liberal wind blows.. They're all over the map there.
Hell, it's even illegal to pump your own gas in that state.. I got in trouble because I didn't know when I got out of my truck that that was a big no no... Also driving while on a phone call is also illegal... Whatever happened to the hands free headsets or ear pieces?

Isn't that funny, it's inappropriate to sing about god, but it's not inappropriate to teach kids about magic and withcraft which is another form of religion...nj is screwed up..



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 02:14 PM
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JJ, How many times do we have to go over this?

I don't want my kids hearing racist, hate rap lyrics in school!
I don't want them to hear some wiccan chants!
I don't want them to hear calls to Allah.
I don't want them to hear Santeria invocations to spirits!
I don't want them to hear praises to YOUR God.

There are many religions represented in Public school.
If people want their kids to be able to be able to express their religious beliefs in school; there are plenty of parochial schools. Am I being PC when I send my kids to parochial schools.

You can try and present this as a liberal/conservative issue if you want; I'm not buyin it.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa
JJ, How many times do we have to go over this?

I don't want my kids hearing racist, hate rap lyrics in school!
I don't want them to hear some wiccan chants!
I don't want them to hear calls to Allah.
I don't want them to hear Santeria invocations to spirits!
I don't want them to hear praises to YOUR God.

There are many religions represented in Public school.
If people want their kids to be able to be able to express their religious beliefs in school; there are plenty of parochial schools. Am I being PC when I send my kids to parochial schools.

You can try and present this as a liberal/conservative issue if you want; I'm not buyin it.


Well, first off, TrueLies resurrected this guy from the dead; I posted it in May. Second, I reread the post just to be sure, and I never said anything about something being conservative or liberal in this thread. Third, this was not the school saying the song had to be sung. This was a little girl who wanted to sing a song she loves just like the other kids got to. However, because her song wasn't about how to go down on someone, how to be easy, or loaded with some other sexual innuendo, but instead went into the offensive, namely addressing God, she was denied her first amendment rights. Fourth, The school doesn't have a problem with school-supported education on pagan rituals, but mention Christianity, and you get silenced.

So, to recap, I was talking about the hypocrisy, how some religions get to be represented and others don't, and I was addressing the annulment of this child's first amendment rights to both free speech and freedom of religion. The girl is not allowed to have a faith, to express her religion as the Constitution of the United States stipulates because some school superintendent deemed the first amendment null and void?

It's one thing to say that the school shouldn't have teachers talking about their religion and supporting whatever. It is a whole different matter when the schools censor students from practicing or talking about their religion. And you know what? The law agrees with me.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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JJ, If Ms. Turton wins the lawsuit then you will be correct in that the law agrees with you.

It takes all kinds to make a world son, why do you seem to get so defensive when others express a different opinion. Calm down!

[edit on 24-10-2005 by whaaa]



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Fourth, The school doesn't have a problem with school-supported education on pagan rituals, but mention Christianity, and you get silenced.


If I'm not mistaken, the main reason most schools teach Shakespeare has nothing to do with supporting pagan rituals. I was always under the impression it was promoting one of the more capable writers in history.

In that vein, when I was in choir in high school, we sang quite a large volume of religious works which were not about promoting Christianity. They were either written by an extremely capable composer (such as Bach--lots of good choral pieces there) or were arrangements of Christmas music. Even then, that's primarily because there aren't many Kwanza or Hannukah "carols" in the public domain. About the only exceptions to either of those I can think of are the songs we sang for competitions, where the singing ability and difficulty of the music was of much more concern than the content.

I make that point because most popular Christian music has as much artistic value as other forms of popular music which, barring jazz, are very rarely found in school curriculum--jazz is an entirely different beast all together. The reason we sang those songs had nothing to do with preaching the glory of one religion over another, but everything to do with both learning music and the availability of the music.

Likewise, a school play performing MacBeth with it's demonstrations of pagan rituals is more focusing on learning acting and the literature of one of history's greatest writers than on teaching people the values of witchcraft. I wouldn't even have made the connection between the two if you hadn't pointed it out.



The girl is not allowed to have a faith, to express her religion as the Constitution of the United States stipulates because some school superintendent deemed the first amendment null and void?


It should be reasonable to assume consitutional rights in schools are limited when they affect the students' ability to learn and the educational environment the school portrays. The school probably thinks that song would be much to overtly religious and not have enough artistic merit to want to associate itself with it.

What would you think if the student were wanting to sing a Marilyn Manson song, such as The Reflecting God? (I'd post a link to the lyrics here, but they might be considered offensive to some.) It would be expressing a religious/sociological belief; should they have that right as well? What would you think if they wanted to get up and sing about how evil they thought Jesus Christ was? Should that be allowed at the show as well? If you want to go the first amendment, then they should be allowed to sing songs of any level of profanity or immoral behavior, and I guarantee that the minute an 8 year old girl wants to start throwing around songs explicitly about going down on someone the school is going to stop the show. If you have a counter example to that, I'd love to hear it.



It's one thing to say that the school shouldn't have teachers talking about their religion and supporting whatever. It is a whole different matter when the schools censor students from practicing or talking about their religion. And you know what? The law agrees with me.


I'd honestly like to see a link to proof on the law agreeing with you with this matter--I don't mean that to be flaming you, I'm just curious.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 03:35 PM
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Sorry JJ but the Law doesn't apply at school. WHy I can't wear my "Save A Tree, Blow Up A School" t-shirt. WHy I can't stand up in the middle of lunch and start preaching Hitler or Republican or Mao. I can't walk around with a gun, I can't take my shotgun to school, so I can sue because they violate my 2nd Amendment right?

Also, if you really want to make a point, go to the school with the song like Bang Bang Lulu or My B@**$, they won't let you sing it.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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If the girl wants to express her faith and praise the lord, church is the place for her to be.


The audience will be very willing to take her in and give her the attention she deserve for her efforts.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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I cannot agree with you more Marg, I mean she should go to a church to do that. But to put it in front of other peoples beliefs is just wrong.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by gimmefootball400
I cannot agree with you more Marg, I mean she should go to a church to do that. But to put it in front of other peoples beliefs is just wrong.


That's right. You should only be able to express your belief in atheism in public. All other beliefs belong on private property, under the bed, with the blankets pulled over, a stereo blaring, and a pillow covering your mouth as you speak. After all, we wouldn't want to force any beliefs (other than atheism) on people!

As to the case law, Full Metal, I'm looking into citing the exact cases and the opinions given...Takes a wee bit of time



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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Fine JJ, tomorrow I will go to school with a shotgun then sue the school for violating my 2nd Amendment rights. Just imagine the outrage across the country as cute little boy is not allowed to take his best friend to school because the school thinks it is wrong to bring a 4/10 shotgun to school.

If you wanna preach God, go to church, if you wanna preach Hitler, go on Fox News, if you wanna preach Mao go to China, if you wanna preach gun rights go to a NRA meeting, if you wanna preach whatever, go to the appropriate place to do it.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:03 PM
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I have to say, as much as I dislike the whole religious right crowd, I think this decision was totally wrong.

The injunctions against religious indoctrination in schools are there to prevent the official endorsement and promotion of religion in public schools. Personal expressions of religious faith by individual students are a different thing entirely, and schools ought not to interfere with what is clearly protected speech.

Unfortunately we have allowed a situation where students' speech is not protected and public schools are somehow exempt from recognizing students' First Amendment rights...

The Second Amendment comparison is out of place, as the Second protects your right to posess firearms, not your right to bring them anywhere you want. Although when my dad was a kid, I believe he brought his rifle to school regularly, for JROTC marksmanship training.

[edit on 10/25/05 by xmotex]



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
After all, we wouldn't want to force any beliefs (other than atheism) on people!


I don't see anyone forcing atheism on anyone. In fact, I hear more Christian beliefs publicized than anything else, and I never hear anyone preaching in public how there is no God. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of an atheist radio or TV station--plenty of secular media, but not explicitly atheist, and there is a difference. About the only time I've ever heard someone sing about atheism has been in music that's never played on the radio, when to counter that the area I live in has two Christian radio stations.

What I don't understand is why Christians seem to be constantly complaining about getting their rights blocked for trying to promote their religion, when their religion is the only one--in the US at least--that is publicized to any degree. When was the last time you saw a Buddhist televangelist? Heard a song on the radio praising Allah? Back to the anecdote I gave earlier, we sang Christian music all the time in high school choir; never once did we ever sing something about Hinduism.

Isn't a monopoly compared to other religions enough, or does everything need to be Christian before your happy?



As to the case law, Full Metal, I'm looking into citing the exact cases and the opinions given...Takes a wee bit of time


I look forward to that as well



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Full Metal
if you wanna preach Hitler, go on Fox News,




I find it interesting that you equate a shotgun with speaking the Word of God. Is it really so dangerous? Does Christianity really have to be censored so much? If so, why? Why would people just talking about it have such an impact on others? A message of love and hope actually has to be restricted by the government? Why? A student speaking about it isn't government endorsement of the belief; it's government endorsement of that student's freedom of religion. They're not being disruptive by speaking it. In the case mentioned in the original post, it was simply a song about God that a girl wanted to sing in a format where other kids were choosing and singing songs of their own. So what is so scary about this subject that a child isn't even allowed to speak about it in the proper manner (meaning not disrupting class)? Why are you so afraid of people talking about God?



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 11:02 PM
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It is only dangerous in certain people's hands, namely Christian fundamentalists and so on. Christianity is only censored because the average Joe Blow out on the street complains about it when they hear it. There are people out there that think they don't need to hear the word of God, which God has set for us to be followed. This government, especially our President, does not know what it is like to be a REAL Christian at heart. There are some people out there that want to hear The Word, but there are some people out there that do not want to hear it because they think that it does not apply to them. If they don't want their "virgin" ears to get burned, then they can exercise the right to take a hike. People are so afraid about someone talking about God or Jesus because they realize how much Sin there is in their life. Most people probably don't even care whether or not they go to either Heaven or the darkest pits of Hell.



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 12:08 AM
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OK JJ you've convinced me:

If a kid wants to praise God in public school, great!
If another kid wants to hail satan with his dark clothes on, great!
if a kid wants to sing rap to kill the pigs, great!
If a kid wants to invoke the voodoo spirits with dancin and bongo drums, great!
Wiccan kids should be free to practice their religion in the halls!
If the Jews want to wear their beenies and hold hands and chant around in circles, wonderful.
If the rock and roll addicts want to glorify ozzy, rock on!
If the Arab kids want to bow to Mecca five times a day, stop and show respect!
If the athiest kids want time to tell you how stupid you are for believing in a myth based on sumerian myths, give em some time!
If the pot heads and drunks want try and sway some loosers into their way of life; give em an hour a day!

If the Hispanic kids want to glorify the the Virgin of Guadalupe, to show their cultural heritage: great.
How bout those Goths: give em their time right!
Why dont we get the marching band out so they can inspire the faculity.
Let's not forget the Native American kids with their stuff!
Some kids I know wear Tinfoil hats and have rituals to the Uranus guys. Praise be Uranus.
Some young females have a different take on things; let it all hang out!
video gamers need to be able to relate their obsession just like the sunday school crowd. They have a culture that needs to be expressed!

See its not just Christians that are being discriminated against.


Some kids just come to school to get an education. That means readin writin and rithmetic. Lets leave religious indroctrination of all types in the churches and in the homes. It's hard enough for some kids to even show up at school with out some other kid condeming them to hell for their different beliefs. It happens! Just try being a Jew in a predominatly Christian school.



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa
See its not just Christians that are being discriminated against.



Oh phew, I guess that makes it right? I'm allowed to hate humanity, as long as I hate everyone. Then it's acceptable hatrid. I'm allowed to kill people, as long as I kill indiscriminately. No favoritism, not picking and choosing, everyone. Because I don't pick a certain group, it makes it acceptable?

Gonna have to continue to disagree with ya on this one.



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 01:12 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by whaaa
See its not just Christians that are being discriminated against.



Oh phew, I guess that makes it right? I'm allowed to hate humanity, as long as I hate everyone. Then it's acceptable hatrid. I'm allowed to kill people, as long as I kill indiscriminately. No favoritism, not picking and choosing, everyone. Because I don't pick a certain group, it makes it acceptable?

Gonna have to continue to disagree with ya on this one.



Whoa Dude, Did I say that?



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa
Whoa Dude, Did I say that?


It could be extrapolated from your comments. Your justification for this is that every belief is discriminated against, therefore, it is acceptable. I simply made the same extreme rather exagerated. Murder, like censorship of ideas, is against the law in the US. Yet, you're saying it is acceptable for one, but are bothered by the other. How do you make the distinction? Which laws can be ignored, and which cannot, as long as you're not biggoted when you break them?



posted on Oct, 26 2005 @ 01:26 AM
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Jungle. were talkin public school here not some grandiose philosophical BS. Quit with the rhetoric and address the concept you started in the first place.







 
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