Military opinions and war experience

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posted on May, 27 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street


Kidfinger, I do not understand your point. A large number of people who do not support the war in Iraq and the global policies of Bush have also not served during war time.

Are you saying that any opinion on the war is somehow less relevant if the person holding it is not a veteran?




No, you misunderstand my original post. I am simply attempting to understand why members of ATS who have seen war mostly do not support the war, while those ATS members who have served in the military but have not seen action continue to support the war. Call this a psychological profile of both sides of the debate if you will.




posted on May, 27 2005 @ 05:24 PM
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Do you think that maybe they feel like they are still bound to the UCMJ even though they are not in service now?

No. At least they should'nt feel that way. If they do something is wrong on there end. I mean, who would wanna be subect to laws when they dont have to be.

But.......

Note: when I say soldiers Im also including airmen, sailors and Marines.

I think allot of former military use and act on the "sterotypical" soldier roll to help get them by after thier military life. Civilians have a picture of Soldiers and Marines portrayed by hollywood and the media. Some former soldiers use this and try to incorporate it into thier lifetsyle. They try to be the big bad "Sarge" or "Gunny" after they get out. They use this so much that it becomes part of them....not just lingo, but attitide and thier thoughts. We see this on ATS....people feel that since they have served they have some kind of obligation (bad choice of words but I could'nt think of another) to keep that stereotypical mentality after they get out and portray it to others

There are some people out there who are straight up hard corps, hi-n-tite, motto all over....im not talking about them. Im talking about the "talkers" not the "walkers". Ofcourse we have no way to really prove this...just my thoughts.

And that is the way I see some people on ATS. I hope I broke that down.....If someone can break it down better than me, go ahead...im not exactly the best person with words.


For Kidfinger, ECK and curme.
Assuming that you all were once the "idea soldier", was there an actual turning point for you? When did you start to think the way you do. Was in while you were in the Army and that's why you got out? Or was it after you got out?

Just trying to see if my age theory has holds any water.


[edit on 27/5/2005 by SportyMB]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by SportyMB


For Kidfinger, ECK and curme.
Assuming that you all were once the "idea soldier", was there an actual turning point for you? When did you start to think the way you do. Was in while you were in the Army and that's why you got out? Or was it after you got out?

Just trying to see if my age theory has holds any water.


[edit on 27/5/2005 by SportyMB]


For me, I never really 'turned' per say, but I just couldnt bring myself to agree with the republican way of thinking in 1994. When you are in the military, no matter what branch, the devotion to country and state is high. It becomes almost cult like. I still maintain the same personal beliefs I have always had, but it seems that this war doesnt fit in with those beliefs. It is not that I am Anti-war, but I dont support this war because I believe it to be an invalid one.

As I stated earlier, if this were a legitamite war and America was threatened I would be making bag lunches for the people in congress making the decesions that affect the lives of our soldiers. My support would be there for the government in a war with a clear goal and a clear threat to this country.

[edit on 5/27/05 by Kidfinger]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 05:56 PM
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Kidfinger, are you Korean?

Back on topic. There are many out there that like to herald soldiers as something larger than life. Warriors, so to speak. Majestic angels of freedom, sent by God, which is the image Bush likes to create.

However, I feel like this is more of a disservice to soldiers than it is a compliment. I have met many soldiers throughout my short lifetime and it would surprise some how down-to-Earth they really are. How they are really no different from any other human being. And to me, the biggest injustice we can do is to not recognize their equality to us, how they are as fragile as any other human being. The only thing that really separates them from us is that they chose to do what they did. Otherwise, they have many of the same feelings, same tribulations as any of us do.

America is not a militaristic country, although it tries to be sometimes. It is also not a warrior society. Unless there is a revolution of some sort, expect none of the above to take place. Therefore, I think the attitudes of Americans towards soldiers need to change. Putting them below (putting any human being below, for that matter) is not cool, but putting them above others doesn't help matters either. To truly support the soldiers, we have to imagine that we are soldiers ourselves. When we see just how alike they can be, it's a totally different picture.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
. I have met many soldiers throughout my short lifetime and it would surprise some how down-to-Earth they really are. How they are really no different from any other human being.


You are absolutly right about that. There are fathers and mothers, heck even grand fathers and grandmothers serving in our military now. What most people dont realize is that unless it is war time, being in the military is like having a job that likes to run a lot of fire drills. It is every day people who serve and protect this country.



of topic abit but.....How about that U2U telling me who this Monica is?


[edit on 5/27/05 by Kidfinger]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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For Kidfinger, ECK and curme.
Assuming that you all were once the "idea soldier", was there an actual turning point for you? When did you start to think the way you do. Was in while you were in the Army and that's why you got out? Or was it after you got out?

Just trying to see if my age theory has holds any water.


[edit on 27/5/2005 by SportyMB]


I was in Korea when 9/11 happened and volunteered to go to Afghanistan. I didn't get a chance to. I don't there was a turning point per se about Iraq. I just agreed with Afghanistan, but felt we rushed into Iraq. There wasn't a lightbulb that went off. It's just to me, one seemed right, the other seemed wrong, based on the facts. Maybe because I was older? Around 30? I don't know. Some of my fellow NCO's were in their 30's, and still thought Saddam was involved in 9/11.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:06 PM
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sweatmonicaIdo, good point!
Really, they spend eight hours (give or take) a day doing thier jobs. Communication, Admin, supply, Infantry, whatever (unless they're deployed). And just like everyone else they cant wait for 430pm to come around so they can go home, play playstation and go catch a movie.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:12 PM
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people feel that since they have served they have some kind of obligation (bad choice of words but I could'nt think of another) to keep that stereotypical mentality after they get out and portray it to others


Would this be mainly the people that have served and not seen action?

I'll assume for a moment that that is what you mean and add this:

Could it be that soldiers that have served and not been involved in action are in some way envious, or maybe even ashamed that they didn't? And because of this shame or envy (these words are probably a bit too strong but still) they feel that they can make up for what they think they 'missed' by living the actions vicariously through younger soldiers who are now being sent to war?

Any military people I have met (not very many, I might add) who have seen action don't comeover as military types as you describe them there SportyMB, however the opposite is true, ex-soldiers that have not seen action are overbearing and, as you say SportyMB, keeping up the stereotypical image of a soldier.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by cmdrpaddy


Any military people I have met (not very many, I might add) who have seen action don't comeover as military types as you describe them there SportyMB, however the opposite is true, ex-soldiers that have not seen action are overbearing and, as you say SportyMB, keeping up the stereotypical image of a soldier.



Hmmm... Interesting analysis. This could account for some of what we are witnessing, but I think there may be more to it than just the feeling of envy. It cant be that simple, can it? Human nature is a tricky subject. This is really where we need someone with some psychiatric experience to delve into this mind set. Any psych majors out there care to take a stab and elaborate some?

[edit on 5/27/05 by Kidfinger]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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I did first year of a psych degree. I phoned up my teacher and spoke to here, there is no study that either of us could find on it but it does sound likethis:

" inferiority complex is a feeling that one is inferior to others in some way. It is often unconscious, and is thought to drive afflicted individuals to overcompensate, resulting either in spectacular achievement or extreme antisocial behaviour."

But it would be hard to do a study on this sort of area. I guess person could sign up to the Army, never got service and feel jealous of those who do or force there dream/wish to be a Veteren onto another.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by SportyMB
For Kidfinger, ECK and curme.
Assuming that you all were once the "idea soldier", was there an actual turning point for you? When did you start to think the way you do. Was in while you were in the Army and that's why you got out? Or was it after you got out?

Just trying to see if my age theory has holds any water.


Excellent questions, Sporty. Perhaps you should become a journalist?


First off, let me say, when I joined at 19, I was as gung ho & "patriotic" as a kid can get. Think: Born on the Fourth of July. I developed my political opinions at a very early age. And no one told me which way to lean. I was 1000% Republican. Reagan is still one of my few heroes (please indulge me, left-leaning friends). To this day I am still a card-carrying Republican.

The reasons I was so Republican so early have to do with several factors. My Christian faith. My desire for a STRONG national defense and a robust foreign policy. (Those of you old enuff to remember Prez. Carter also probly remember his completely ANEMIC foreign policy.
) Economic reasons. Support for the 2nd Ammendment. Limited government. on and on. All in all, I felt the Republican party was the party of sanity, family values, strength and fiscal responsibility.

To this day, the only time I have ever voted NOT for a Republican was in the 2004 election (state and local). In that election, I voted for as many Libertarians as I could and for Kerry/Edwards. That's how extreme I feel.

I have not left my party, b/c I feel it has been taken over by zealots and warmongers - and the only way it will revert back to its rightful place is if we, the true and moderate Republicans drive those bastards out of the GOP. They don't belong in any American party, in my opinion. They should be shunned by all.

Thankfully, as street smart and experienced as I was when I was in the Army, I was still YOUNG AND DUMB. Exactly the way they want 'em. Pliable. Trusting. And also thankfully, I had outstanding leaders. And I mean all the way up to President Bush (THE FIRST). I would have followed my leaders through hell and back, as if what we went through wasn't something akin to it. Wherever and whatever. That's how much I (still) respect them. They were beyond battle-tested, some having served three tours of duty in the 'Nam. They were grade A, man.


While I served, I was not this politcal animal you now know me as. My world-view was still forming. Sporty, your age theory, I believe, holds a tremendous amount of weight. When folks get older and experience more of life, their views morph through the years; that is, unless they are braindead and happy with that.

One quick example of how I was back then: When we went to Saudi Arabia to prepare to liberate Kuwait in the summer of '90, we were so indoctrinated already (which is needed like a weapon) and they had filled our heads so full of BU# propaganda, combined, we were the equivalent of a nuclear weapon. I personally went over there ready to take out as many Iraqis as I possibly could. I was enraged that this pissant dictator actually had the audacity to invade a weaker nation and threaten our strategic national interest in the process. I'm not one to pick a fight, but I damn sure will finish it. I was ready to do my job. We all were.

Such hostitlity felt towards someone and many someones I had never met.

All because the media and the government told me to hate them and want to go deliver upon them, more shock and awe than Donald Rumsfeld could ever dream of.

A was a well-meaning pawn.

Here's a little aside I doubt many of you have ever heard of. My commanding officer told me this before we came home. King Fahd, Guardian of the Two Holy Mosques, offered our president, George Herbert Walker Bush, to give each and every man and woman who served in theater a cash award of $1,000 (dollars) a piece. President Bush declined on our behalf. To the president, I suppose, and possibly the Constitution, it was bad form. Instead, we each recieved a gold medal from the King and his kingdom.

President Bush, it must be said, reaped a windfall of profit in future business dealings with Saudi Arabia. Carlyle Group, anyone? But, I digress.

Back to the future: When I got out of military in August 1992, I took some time off and enjoyed the fruits of my labor, so to speak. I enjoyed with vigor a beautiful relationship and visited colleges in Lousiana (LSU), New York City (NYU) and Arizona (NAU). I eventually settled on Northern Arizona University, 9,000 feet up in Flagstaff. (Coolest bars in the world. Dogs and bull#ters allowed.) I majored in Political Science and studied history (with a concentration on Civil-War to WW2).

I had great professors. And most of them were LIBERAL. It didn't matter though. I was so confident of my conservative beliefs and bolstered by the fact that I just walked through fire and made it out even better. I was strong. The professors knew that. Sitting in an auditorium full of annoyed, bored, ignorant kids, the prof would call on me. He/she'd ask me what I thought about this happening in whatever country (at that time we labored and argued over our involvement in Bosnia. I was dead against it. My reasoning being, it's in Europe, let the bloody Europeans deal with it! With our (NATO)'s support, of course. They valued my opinion. And I learned a lot from them. Namely: Be civil to one another in debate (give respect to get) and to QUESTION EVERYTHING.

Think independently. Gather as much info as you can from each end of the spectrum and everywhere in between. Then make up your own mind. # the talking points and party loyalty. Lives are on the line!

I learned alot in the '90's being a student, being politically active, financially independent, working various jobs in the civilian world. I saw life from a lot of angles. I've been rich and I've been poor. I've been near suicidal and I've lived decadently. At this point, and I will be 36 years-old in a hand-full of days, I know who I am. I know what I've studied and investigated. I know what I've seen. I've loved and been loved like a MOFO
- Thank God. I have also carried weapons into someone else's country with a force that would boggle the historians in all of man's history. At the tender and volatile age of 21, I, and my brothers and sisters went into the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and up into Iraq, with orders to kill. There is no feeling in the world like that of being licensed to kill. And of feeling a multitude of people draw back, maybe even cower in fear as you walk by with your powerful, well-fed entourage.

Nothing like the feeling of staring a terrorist (literally) in the eyes, promising if he breathes wrong you will blow his brains out all over his companion next to him. And promising that shotgun passenger would most definitely be a swift next.

Nothing like the feeling of knowing you probably just saved your remaining remnant of soldiers from something ungodly.

At this point in my life, I am progressive. And still a (hopeful) Republican.
I am still a Christian, albeit not one you would probably choose to emulate.
(Iss all good) I am so much more tolerant now. In order to convert someone, you cannot throw judgement at them. Only calm and logic prevail. I will support any leader who leads by example and follows the path of common sense, mutual respect, decency and the rule of law. I don't give a damn what party they're a member of. I've seen too much evil activity on both sides to play favorites. Maybe that's just back to the old military position of a-politix? My concern is what is best for the whole. The difference is now, I am also concerned for the minority opinion. Because minorities are also people, who feel and suffer. The difference is, back in my younger days, I had it made. Always. Nice home, new clothes , ATARI
cars from when I was 15, scholarships to college, great duty station, money.... fame..... Good lovin' All the things the little guy doesn't have & enjoy. My compassion index was out of wack. The difference now is, I've been to their depths. I do feel their pain.

I now feel true pain for the people of Iraq. For what they have had to endure at the hands of Saddam, at the hands of sanctions and now at the hands of our unprovoked and unasked for invasion and brutal occupation.

That is how I changed and that is why I am who I am today. That is how - studying the middle east and its history at least 150 years back, fighting in the middle east and knowing middle easterners and this administration, I came to oppose the Iraq War.

I support the soldiers, sailors, Airmen and Marines with every fiber of my being.

Peace Out and HooWah!



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by cmdrpaddy
Any military people I have met (not very many, I might add) who have seen action don't comeover as military types as you describe them there SportyMB, however the opposite is true, ex-soldiers that have not seen action are overbearing and, as you say SportyMB, keeping up the stereotypical image of a soldier.


Excellent points cmdrpaddy.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 08:37 PM
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Being active duty military, and having served in Iraq I can't say that I've seen any evidence of soldiers changing their opinions of the war due to being involved in combat. The military as a whole is overwhelmingly conservative and so most service members support Bush and the war, regardless of whether they have "seen action". Those who are opposed to the war generally do not make it known publicly for fear of repercussion.

Members of the SOF community are even more supportive of the war than conventional forces even though they see more action than anyone else, although this is probably more due to the fact that the people in SOF units are just more dedicated by nature. (not to detract from the patriotism of other units)

I see what I do as the job I chose. It is NOT my job to decide where and when I do it or who I do it to. I do have my opinions, but I acknowledge the fact that I do not see the big picture and I trust the judgement of those who do hold that position.

I am just as annoyed with civilians who are very pro-war, as I am with those who protest incessantly against it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their right to express it, I just wish that people would try to inform themselves more before deciding that they know enough to come to a conclusion and enforce it on others.

There has been so little intelligent debate between the two sides that it depresses me to think what this means for our country.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
America is not a militaristic country, although it tries to be sometimes. It is also not a warrior society.

I think you really should re-think this statement .... I don't agree at all!
You see, the American defence budget was a 300 billion $/year just prior to 9/11 and back then it was already more than the rest of the world combined.
Today this war budget has gne up to a 500 billion $/year and I really expect it to become 600 billion per year by the end of the year.

Wouldn't that be more than twice the combined total of the rest of the world now?

America is in the war business, in fact ciorporate America needs war to keep business going.

Haven't you every heard of the term "corporate military industrial complex"?
That expression is very specific to us, Americans ... you won't see an other country referring to the war business in this manner simply because no other country is involved in war as much as we are.
Food for thoughts!
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posted on May, 27 2005 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Telly

There has been so little intelligent debate between the two sides that it depresses me to think what this means for our country.


And that my friend is exactly what we are trying to accomplish on this thread.
I think we have actually come a long way here and we have been pretty civil to one another.

ECK,

Wow, talk about a personal history lesson
I had no idea about your educational journys. Furthering ones education is a sure fire way to open up ones eyes.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 09:06 PM
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Well I also thank everyone for keeping it civil.

Well I joined when I was 17, I knew the Navy was were I wanted to be, and I went in the Nuclear Navy as that had the biggest bonus and it was my chance to 'see' an aircraft carrier, I knew them all by name already. I could not go sub as I was too tall and the waiver was not worth the hassle. I always wanted to be a pilot but my poor eyesight ruled that out....so off to Orlando I went, right out of high school.

Now some of my very close friends in high school went in the Army and one in the Air Force. Well ALL joined. We felt it was a duty and also a stepping stone to a great career as the ex-military are always in demand.

At this time, the height of the Cold War was on, Reagan (the man by the way) had rebuilt not only the hardware, but the moral after the extremely difficult Carter years. the pride was back and if money could buy it, we had it.

The Europeans at this time were protesting the deployment of the cruise missiles and the Pershing II's, there were demonstrations all the time, and yet the West, against a good portion of the population, continued to re-arm at mostly US taxpayer expense. It forced the Soviets hand but we really did not know to what extent they were hurting. The last I remember was we increased our defense budget to 4% of GDP while the USSR to remain in the game so to speak went from 17% to somewhere near 28%. It broke them and yet we are fighting the war today with many of the 'hardware' items that were purchased in the 1980's.

The true breaking point was the announcement of Star Wars. It scared the living # out of the Soviets cause they knew they could not match our technology (as recent conflicts have so decisively shown) and that it was a matter of time.

This was a different age than what the troops are in today. In some ways you can say it was gravy compared to now being that you are almost guaranteed combat duty today and not so then. But it was no cakewalk either. You thought of your life expectancy in hours or days if lucky, if conflict came. You trained hard and became certified killing machines so that you never had to use it. Our troops today are not in fear of nucs for the most part but in my day it was a given. When the 100 divisions of the USSR poured through the Fulda Gap, an attempt would be made to keep it 'limited' and we all know the chances of that actually happening.

It was scary indeed, and here is one of the main differences, then you knew if conflict came, your family was probably going to die along with you, whereas today it is most likely just yourself.

Now some comments were made in my direction in another thread and I would like to answer them as calmly as I can. I would love to rejoin the Navy now and although the Army has allowed ex-servicemen to rejoin at age 39, the Navy does not. My 'skill set' would not be in as great a demand in the Army or Air Force near as much as the Navy. I have already checked into this.

As for me being a coward, I tried to go to Iraq as a civilian and I still might in a very short time, but, I would have to have the insurance to protect my family if I were to die as they depend on the knowledge that in in my brain matter as my wife and I have a lot invested in that knowledge. I am not afraid of death, the Lord shall choose that time, not me, not some piss ant terrorist.

I can not go into to much detail, but I am involved in supporting the troops in an indirect fashion, I am proud to do so but that is not why I support the war. Although WMD were never found, the risk that he did have the programs and his history of lies and deceit warranted it in my opinion.

Why? Well actually my opinion was formed long before 911, The USS Cole was the trigger for me. Did Saddam have anything to do with it? Hell I don't know but it is moot whether he did or not. Why? Well Saddam was paying Palestinian families $25k for every suicide bomber and at some point the Israelis would have had enough and then all hell would have broke loose. The Iranians were rattling the swords so to speak, Saddam was sticking his finger to the whole world and just what was being done? Was there an Iraqi connection to Oklahoma City? I dunno but I can see that it is at least possible. What did Clinton do about the Cole? Nothing. What did he do about anything other than launch cruise missiles at camps and some chemical plant in the Sudan. He emboldened the 'Islamic Radical' movement to hit harder.

I firmly believed that if Gore were in office, 911 would have still happened. Where things change is that be it Bush or his cronies, someone with balls said enough is enough. The Middle East is where the powder keg is, and where the stand must be made. We either do it now from a position of strength, or later when the costs are much higher (on both sides) .

War is hell, have I ever been in combat? No. Have I even been at General Quarters and think it was real? Yes....it is stressful in both camps.

The thing that gets me more pissed off than anything is not that some are against the war, that doesn't bother me at all. Hell you have that right, I helped protect that right to disagree.

BUT - when the press and the 'left' does nothing but show one side of the war, he aids and comforts the enemy. They love to see the American people speak ills against the Government and to see a divided nation. They learned from Vietnam well.

What what happened in that prison is Iraq the right thing to do? Hell no it was not ok (If what I know about it is correct. But is it ok to use it to sell magazines to make a profit at the cost of American lives? No.

This war is not a pretty one, but as far as wars go, the deaths on both sides have been minimum in the grand scheme of things, 2 years and most of the deaths are by cowards. Most of the deaths are against civilians to scare them into whatever polluted ideals these scum want.

What sealed it for me, and why I can say that I am for this Iraqi freedom operation is threefold.

(1) When I saw the Iraqi's brave the polls as they did, then I knew that DID want freedom. Sure not all, but a higher percentage of them voted than did America under pretty damn bad conditions I might add. They tasted it, and in the long run I feel they will be thankful. Sure just as Europe has forgot, so will Iraq. But in the mean time, lets hope the fire of freedom can spread, I support that effort as it is the only way to avoid a much bigger confrontation later.

(2) It put the battle back in 'their' corner. They can no longer say that the American people have no stomach for a fight and therefore will capitulate. They know that we now mean what we say and we will back it up. The Battle for Iraq is not a battle for Mesopotamia, its a battle for either the peaceful merging of the Islamic world into the World community or its an all out war between the World and Islam.

(3) It allows a chance for the China's of the world to see that war with the United States is NOT an option. I do not fear China and my hopes that a new cold war can be avoided. Believe me, if China could have taken Taiwan they already would have. That may change in 10-15 years. If so, we can't have the Middle East sprouting wars all the damn time. In the Next 25 years as the Chinese economy surpasses the US's in size, we the US will be in a quandary that we had better prepare for. Oil and energy will be a big part of the Chinese growth, and as the need for oil increases, so does the trigger finger.

So while we sit here, some pro- some con , some vets, some not, remember when you criticize the Administration, understand that they do have access to information that could very well change your mind.

I can give an example, I was AGAINST going into Bosnia, and no matter my dislike for Clinton, I thought he had made a mistake. Let the Europeans handle it as it is in their backyard. That is until I found out later why he had to, the US HAD to....(to protect Muslims, how Ironic now huh?)Even a anti-Clinton person as I, knows that the CIC will do what is best and necessary for the protection of the American people.

If you choose to believe that Bush went into Iraq for oil, then that is your right and even if that is correct, then you must also concede that in doing so , stability to some degree has come back to a wrecked economy and the well being of the World economy by proxy.

Did Clinton wreck it? No Did Bush? No, its a cycle.. maybe the NWO did who knows.

In closing.

To all the Veterans here, I salute you no MATTER your political leanings. To those they have not served, I offer this. Please the next time you see a service-person, thank them. You don't have to like the reasons they are there, but remember they have done their duty when their nation called and deserve that respect.


GOD BLESS AMERICA

[edit on 27-5-2005 by edsinger]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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"They have always taught and trained you to believe it to be your patriotic duty to go to war and to have yourselves slaughtered at their command. But in all the history of the world you, the people, have never had a voice in declaring war, and strange as it certainly appears, no war by any nation in any age has ever been declared by the people"
~ Eugene Debs

"The dangerous patriot: The one who drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions. He is a defender of militarism and its ideals of war and glory. Chauvinism is a proud and bellicose form of patriotism . . . which identifies numerous enemies who can only be dealt with through military power and which equates the national honor with military victory."
~ Marine Corps, Colonel James A. Donovan

"COWARDICE, n. A charge often levelled by all-American types against those who stand up for their beliefs by refusing to fight in wars they find unconscionable, and who willingly go to prison or into exile in order to avoid violating their own consciences. These 'cowards' are to be contrasted with red-blooded, 'patriotic' youths who literally bend over, grab their ankles, submit to the government, fight in wars they do not understand (or disapprove of), and blindly obey orders to maim and to kill simply because they are ordered to do so-all to the howling approval of the all-American mob. This type of behavior is commonly termed 'courageous.'"
~ Chaz Bufe


[edit on 093131p://u08. by PepeLapiu1]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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I just found this thread and plan on contributing my experiences once I get caught up on all the replies. That should be tomorrow sometime.


[edit on 5/27/2005 by shots]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 11:24 PM
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Well I guess my statement about troops not under nuke threat would be moot if Iran already has nukes, crap now these guys not only have to worry about roadside bombs and snipers, but now instant death in mass.

This sucks. If true, the world just got a bit more dangerous.





Intel: Iran equipped for atomic weapon by North Korea!



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 07:03 AM
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Question ed:

Why are you so disrespectful of anti-Iraq War forum members who not only served you and your country but did so in a combat zone...an actual war...under actual threat?

Their experiences may have helped form their opinions about why this war is wrong, yet you are so damning of those opinions. Having never seen actual combat yourself, you should be willing to acknowledge the sacrifice made by walking into a combat zone and respect their views about this current war. But no. You label them Tulipwalkers who hate their country. Hate their country? I dare say they have done more for you by risking their lives to defend you than you did for them. I think you know this too, and I would hope that you felt some shame about using the words against them that you do.

They are not anti-war. They are anti-Iraq War. Hell, a lot of us you label as Tulipwalkers are not even "Liberals". I am not anti-war. What makes you so right and them so wrong? What have you experienced that could make your stance any more righteous than theirs?

[edit on 28-5-2005 by cargo]





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