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The Ultimate Sacrifice...

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posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:35 AM
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Is anyone familiar with the theory the Jesus didnt die on the cross but had someone take his place...One of the faithfull willing to die to protect the true king perhaps..
As late as the seventh century the Koran maintained the argument that a substitute, namely Simon Of Cyrene, took his place on the cross.

The Nag Hamadi scrolls are invaluable, writen for an Eygyptian and not Roman market, they bare no bias and were not put through the rigoruos censorship of the romans. They may well be the product of first hand witness reports..

In one codex, udated, the "SECOND TREATISE OF GREAT SETH" jesus is depicted as escaping the cross by way of an ingenous substituion plan, speaking in first person Jesus says -

"I did not succumb to them as palnned...And i did not die in reality but in appearance, lest i be put to shame by them...For my death wich they think happened (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death....it was another, their father, who drank the gall and te vinegar; It was not I. They struck me with the reed; Itwas another Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon whom they placed their crown of thorns....And I was laughing at their ignorance."

This would explain nicely the resurection...Joseph o Aremithea, maybe, paying a bribe to take the body down from the cross and bury it in a private tomb before anyone recognises that really it ISNT Jesus up there!!!

Yes the sciptures say that Longinas pierced his side with the lance but why not break his kneecaps, which was more a custom, to speed up death...

Why, beacuse the scriptures state that in the prophecy he shall have no bones broken..
.
John 19.33-36..."But when they came to Jesus and saw that he is dead already thay break not his legs...for these things be done that the scriptures should be fullfilled. A bone of him shall not be broken."

Psalm 34.20 "He keepeth all his bones. Not one of them is broken"

This and many other things were all done trying to fullfill the Messianic Prohecies such as -

John 19:37 "They will look upon him whom they have pierced"
Zecarhia 12.10"I wil pour out on the House Of David and on the inhabitants of Jersulaem a spirit of grace and petition. And they shall lok upon him whom they have thrust through and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, they shall grieve for him as one grieves for a firstborn."

This verse states that they(the jews)will mourn for him after being thrust through by the enemy....But it was the jews in the form of the senadrin that was plotting to kill him!!!!
Nobody mourns him.

Psalm 22 -16.18 "for dogs have compassed me. The assembly of wicked have inclosed me...they pierced my hands and feet..they part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture"
This is the christian interpretation of the pslam...but in no time does it mention the act of crucifixion..which isnt a suprise as it wasnt known in the time of David..
The nearest it gets is the reference to "they pierced my hands and feet" but as before they mention that hes surround by animals, they refer to animal bites..

Another strange thing is that the evangelists never mention this verse as being fulfilled by Jesus.

John quotes verse 18 when refering to the clothes and zacariah 12.10 when refering to the lance in the side, but never quoted is Psalm 22.16.with regards to the crucifixion..its never used in any other of the gospels either..it would appear that the old testament version used by the evangelists doesnt have this rendering...

Its clear that the Old Testament was clearly abused by the New Testament writers.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by andy1972]




posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:52 AM
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As late as the 21st century and as early as the 7th, islam declared that.

If islam did not declare that, then there would be no islam as it exists today because Christ would be the son of God.

The conspiracy in this is muhammeds attempt to hijack christianity.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by andy1972
Is anyone familiar with the theory the Jesus didnt die on the cross but had someone take his place...One of the faithfull willing to die to protect the true king perhaps..


It's a very old idea, and relies on ignoring the data sources we have for Jesus. Once you do that, what do you certainly know about this Jesus?



As late as the seventh century the Koran maintained the argument that a substitute, namely Simon Of Cyrene, took his place on the cross.


It's a simple enough argument to invent, after all.



The Nag Hamadi scrolls are invaluable, writen for an Eygyptian and not Roman market, they bare no bias and were not put through the rigoruos censorship of the romans. They may well be the product of first hand witness reports..


The books are in book form, not scrolls. They are entirely shot through with various biases and mutually contradictory statements, which indicate that one and all were forged much later than the events.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:11 PM
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The books are in book form, not scrolls.


Main Entry: [1]book
1 a : a set of written sheets of skin or paper or tablets of wood or ivory b : a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume c : a long written or printed literary composition d : a major division of a treatise or literary work

Main Entry: [1]scroll
1b : archaic : a written message

Looks to me like scrolls can be bound into a book.


They are entirely shot through with various biases and mutually contradictory statements, which indicate that one and all were forged much later than the events.


Kind-of like that happened to the story of Lazarus? Those books have no more bias or contradictory statements than the NT currently has. The NT books were chosen by the one and only Holy Roman empire. For whatever reason, the bishops couldn't even put together the Tanakh in the proper order. But think about this, if the Gnostics had been chosen, the form of Christianity would be very different. People should probably take the time to ask themselves if they are practicing Christianity or Constantinity.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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because Christ would be the son of God.


If Jesus existed and he was Jewish, then he along with all of the other males were sons of G-d.


The conspiracy in this is muhammeds attempt to hijack christianity.


How did he do that? By using parts of Christianity?



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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Religion is a pack of junk food for spiritual appetites.

For REAL food for spiritual hunger, I seriously advise the reader to read books by Alvin B. Kuhn, Ph.D.

The first 2 books read should be: The Lost Light and Shadow of the Third Century

These and his other books will clear up all of the confusion and misdirection found in so-called "religion."



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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People should probably take the time to ask themselves if they are practicing Christianity or Constantinity.



or Paulism - that's my take.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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or Paulism - that's my take.


Yes definitely that too.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Psalm 34.20 "He keepeth all his bones. Not one of them is broken"


In the Hebrew, the lines above are actually verse 21. Verse 20 is "Though the misfortunes of the righteous be many, the Lord will save him from them all." 21 is "Keeping all his bones in tact, not one of them being broken." The Jewish Publication Society has their 1917 version online and you can see that here. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
Why is the line numbering off? Oh because Psalm 34 is about David. Verse 1 says, "Of David "when he feigned madness in the presence of Abimelech, who turned him out, and he left."

KJV "I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth."

RSV A Psalm of David, when he feigned madness before Abimelech, so that he drove him out, and he went away. I will bless the LORD at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth.

The Revised Standard Version combines verses one and two.


This and many other things were all done trying to fullfill the Messianic Prohecies such as -


And sadly for them, they didn't do it and yet people still believe so. See below for the messianic prophecies.


John 19:37 "They will look upon him whom they have pierced"
Zecarhia 12.10"I wil pour out on the House Of David and on the inhabitants of Jersulaem a spirit of grace and petition. And they shall lok upon him whom they have thrust through and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, they shall grieve for him as one grieves for a firstborn."


Zechariah 12.10 is commonly used as a return prophecy and John uses it as a first coming prophecy. Not surprising to me since John was a Jew and he would know how many times the mosiach was supposed to come. But the passage in Zechariah is about the general who will lead the war of Gog and Magog.


This verse states that they(the jews)will mourn for him after being thrust through by the enemy....But it was the jews in the form of the senadrin that was plotting to kill him!!!!
Nobody mourns him.


The Jews didn't mourn for him for one of two reasons...A. He didn't exist. B. He was just another messiah coming along as many other had before and have after him. To say that the Sanhedrin were plotting to kill him, his existence would first have to be established. Second, if the Jews were going to kill him, Christians wouldn't be wearing crosses around their necks. But those look better than a stone. Now going with the idea that he did in fact exist, Jesus did nothing that the mosiach was supposed to do.

=========================================
PREREQUISITES TO RECOGNIZE THE MESSIAH
=========================================

INTRODUCTION

The Bible is transparent on the subject of the role of the messiah. It should be noted that, although there are many sections throughout the Jewish scriptures that vividly describe how the world will be forever transformed with the arrival of the messiah, very few are about the messiah personally. The vast quantity of messianic scripture in Tanakh depicts the state of perfection that the world will achieve at the end of days. It is quite clear from the vantage point of Tanakh that the significance of the messiah himself pales in comparison to the utopian age that his arrival will usher in.

The reason Judaism does not accept the Christian messiah is because Jesus fulfilled none of the messianic prophecies clearly foretold in the Jewish scriptures. The following is an overview of the most distinct messianic prophecies as outlined in the Jewish scriptures -- which both Christians and Jews agree are messianic:

World Peace

"And he [Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." -- Isaiah 2:4

"He [Messiah] will destroy death forever." -- Isaiah 25:8

"Then the inhabitants of the cities of Israel will go out and make fire and feed them with the weapons -- shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, clubs and spears; they shall use them as fuel for seven years." -- Ezekiel 39:9

Universal Knowledge of G-d

"For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. -- Isaiah 11:9

"And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or shall one teach his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from their smallest to their greatest," says the Lord" -- Jeremiah 31:33

"All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King Lord of Hosts and to observe the feasts." -- Zechariah 14:16

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." -- Zechariah 14:9

"Thus said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold -- they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you."
-- Zachariah 8.23

Building of the Third Temple

"...and I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. -- Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

Death Will Cease

"He will swallow up death forever...." -- Isaiah 25:8

Resurrection of the Dead

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust, for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." -- Isaiah 26:19

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Daniel 12:2

"Therefore, prophesy and say to them, "So says the Lord G-d: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and lead you up out of your graves as My people."
-- Ezekiel 37:12-13

Ingathering of Israel

"I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, ''Give up,'' and to the south, "Keep not back, bring My sons from far, and My daughter from the ends of the earth. -- Isaiah 43:5-6. (See also Jeremiah 16:15; 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22)

(And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. -- Isaiah 11:12

But, As the L-rd lives, who brought the people of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands where he had driven them; and I will bring them back to their land that I gave to their fathers. -- Jeremiah 16:15

And I will gather the remnant of my flock from all countries where I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. -- Jeremiah 23:3

21. And say to them, Thus says the Lord G-d: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land;
22. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; -- Ezekiel 37: 21-22)

The Nations Will Help the Jews Materially

"Then you shall see and be radiant, and your heart shall fear and expand; because the abundance of the sea shall be overturned upon you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you." -- Isaiah 60:5

"Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you. Men shall bring you the wealth of the nations with their kings led in procession. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste." -- Isaiah 60:10--12

"But you shall be called “priests of the L-rd,” men shall say of you, “ministers of our G-d;” you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory." -- Isaiah 61:6

Eternal Joy and Gladness Will Characterize the Jewish Nation

"And the redeemed of the L-rd shall return, and come to Zion in song; everlasting joy shall be upon their head; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee. -- Isaiah 51:11

The Jews Will Be Sought For Spiritual Guidance

Thus says the L--rd of hosts: “In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations shall take hold and seize the robe of a Jew, saying: `Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.' ” -- Zechariah 8:23

All Weapons Of War Will Be Destroyed

"Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go forth and set fire to the weapons and burn them, shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, handspikes and spears, and they will make fires of them for seven years...."
-- Ezekiel 39:9

The Enemy Dead Will Be Buried

For seven months the House of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. -- Ezekiel 39:12

The Egyptian River Will Run Dry

"And the L-rd will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt and wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind, and smite it into seven channels, and make men cross dryshod." -- Isaiah 11:15

Trees Will Yield New Fruit Monthly in Israel

And on both sides of the bank of the stream, all trees for food will grow; their leaves will not wither nor will their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because their waters flow from the Sanctuary; their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine. -- Ezekiel 47:12

Each Tribe of Israel Will Receive It's Inheritance

"Thus says the L-rd, G-d: “These are the boundaries by which you shall divide the land for inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. And you shall divide equally that which I swore to give your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.” -- Ezekiel 47:13--14

All Warfare Will Cease

"And He shall judge among the nations and decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." -- Isaiah 2:4

CONCLUSION

It is interesting to note that these Messianic prophecies foretell the nations' subjugation to Israel. If Jesus was really the Messiah and the Jews persecuted and killed him, why is G-d going to reward them so greatly? Partly for not yielding to centuries of Christian persecution.

Moreover, when looking back at all of these prophecies, we can clearly see Jesus is not the Messiah. Jesus fell short of fulfilling any of the major messianic prophecies; he was never anointed as King, he never ruled Israel, and the world was certainly not perfected in his time. In addition, he was not preceded by the return of the prophet Elijah. To suggest Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is, in effect, saying that G-d was lying to the Jewish people when he promised a Messiah from the house of David who would fulfill all of the prophecies.

===========================================


Psalm 22 -16.18 "for dogs have compassed me. The assembly of wicked have inclosed me...they pierced my hands and feet..they part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture"
This is the christian interpretation of the pslam...but in no time does it mention the act of crucifixion..which isnt a suprise as it wasnt known in the time of David..


Outside of the bad translation, the Psalm is "For the leader; on ayyeleth ha-shahar. A psalm of David." v1 This translates to Deer of the Dawn which indicates the tune to sing to.

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? KJV-again, not shown.

To the choirmaster: according to The Hind of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? RSV


Another strange thing is that the evangelists never mention this verse as being fulfilled by Jesus.


Maybe because it's not a messianic prophecy.


it would appear that the old testament version used by the evangelists doesnt have this rendering...


They couldn't even put it in the proper order as the actual Hebrew is in.


Its clear that the Old Testament was clearly abused by the New Testament writers.


More than you probably can imagine!!!!

EDITED-I forgot to add the Tanakh link.

[edit on 5/27/2005 by Shonet1430]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
As late as the 21st century and as early as the 7th, islam declared that.

If islam did not declare that, then there would be no islam as it exists today because Christ would be the son of God.

The conspiracy in this is muhammeds attempt to hijack christianity.


This is exactly right. If christ did not die on the cross than he could not cleanse sins of mankind. It's islamic propaganda.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 03:21 PM
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This is exactly right. If christ did not die on the cross than he could not cleanse sins of mankind. It's islamic propaganda.


Christian propaganda is that G-d had to send himself to fix his own mistake and to fix it, he had to kill himself. That makes a WHOLE lot of sense. G-d said in the Tanakh what was necessary to cleanse one's self. He also gave guidelines for all of humanity to follow. Death of himself is not necessary as G-d does not have to answer to anyone else nor is he man. His words...via the Torah, the only words directly given by G-d.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 11:20 AM
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i think i heard somewhere that someone offered to take his place on the cross but Jesus refused.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 01:12 PM
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Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. (Eph. 5:19)

By far the largest single element in the Church's Divine services is the Psalms of David. Of them St. John Chrysostom has said: "If we keep vigil in church, David comes first, last and central.
If early in the morning we want songs and hymns, first, last and central is David again. If we are occupied with the funeral solemnities of those who have fallen asleep, or if virgins sit at home and spin, David is first, last and central.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.'
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter." Acts 17:30-31

"we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness..." 1 Corinthians 1:23


The scribes immediately pointed out to him Micah’s well-known prophecy (5:2), not citing it literally but its meaning,
that the Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem. Bethlehem means — “house of bread” and Euphratus — “fertile field”; a name that characterises the exceptional fertility of the soil.
In Micah’s veritable prophecy there is a remarkable indication that the Messiah will only “come” from Bethlehem,
but will not live there, and that His true origin “are from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2).

According to Saint Luke, this was followed by the Lord crying out: “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit” (Luke 23:46), “and bowing His head, He gave up His spirit” (John 19:30). All first three Evangelists narrate, that at that moment of Christ’s death, “the veil in the temple was torn in two from top to bottom,” i.e. the curtain that separated the Sanctuary from the Holiest of Holy, tore in half by itself. As it was that time for the offering of the evening sacrifice — nearly 3 o’clock in the afternoon (by our time) — there apparently was a rostered priest, who witnessed this miraculous tearing of the curtain.

This symbolized the discontinuance of the Old Testament and the beginning of the New Testament, which opened the Kingdom of Heaven to humans that was previously closed to them.
“The earth quaked” — as a sign of God’s wrath at those who put to death His Beloved Son, a strong earthquake occurred. From this earthquake “rocks were split” i.e. rocky hills split, revealing caves used for burials.
As a sign of the Lord’s triumph over death — “many bodies of the Saints who had fallen asleep were raised” — on the third day when the Lord resurrected, these bodies that came to life in those caves, appeared in Jerusalem to people that knew them.(here the spiritual death of Adam and Eve is conquered by Christ's Crucifiction)

www.intratext.com...

Which symbolized the end of sacrificial lambs...
Quote/////Jewish hands and be crucified), so that the Sacrifice on the Cross — symbolized by the Paschal lambs — would be brought the same day and hour when the Passover lambs were slain.
www.intratext.com...

Only Saint John narrates on events following the death of Jesus, and as usual, complements the first three Evangelists, and as he confirms in his narrative, he was a witness to all of them.
Because it was Friday — in Greek “paraskevi” meaning “preparation,” i.e. “day before Saturday,” and that Saturday was “a great day” as it coincided with the first day of Passover, so as not to leave the crucified bodies on the crosses on such a “great day,” the Jews (enemies of Christ or members of the Sanhedrin) asked Pilate
“that their legs may be broken.”
Having killed them this way, “they might be taken away” i.e. taken down and buried before the onset of night, when it would be time to partake of Passover.
In order to quicken their demise, the cruel Roman custom had the legs of the crucified broken i.e. shattered. Having received Pilate’s permission, the soldiers broke the legs of the two robbers crucified with Christ, who were still alive.
“But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with his spear, and immediately blood and water came out” (John 19:33-34; 1 John 5:8).


“For these things were done,” i.e. not only the piercing of the side,
but also that the Lord’s legs were not broken, “that the Scripture should be fulfilled.”
This was foretold in the Book of Exodus 12:46: the Paschal lamb, transfiguration of the Lord Jesus Christ,
had to be eaten without any bones being broken and what remained,
had to be burned.
There is another section of the Bible that prophesies: “they shall look unto me whom they have pierced” (Zach. 12:10).
In this segment,
Jehovah is depicted as the Messiah that had been pierced by His people,
and having looked upon the wounded Messiah,
the same people are presented as bringing penitence with weeping and sobbing before Him.
These words are slowly being fulfilled with the Jews that condemned Christ to death — and will continue to be fulfilled to the end of the world, when there will be a universal conversion of Jews to Christ, as foretold by Saint Apostle Paul in his Epistle to the Romans 11:25-26.

www.intratext.com...


All of the Old Testament Prophecies have been fullfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ our God...

IX
helen....

and there's much more !

Glory be to God



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

The books are in book form, not scrolls.


Main Entry: [1]book
1 a : a set of written sheets of skin or paper or tablets of wood or ivory b : a set of written, printed, or blank sheets bound together into a volume c : a long written or printed literary composition d : a major division of a treatise or literary work

Main Entry: [1]scroll
1b : archaic : a written message

Looks to me like scrolls can be bound into a book.


Were you trying to be clever here? If so, your reward is to get it all hopelessly wrong, I'm afraid.

There are two types of book-form in antiquity; the roll and the codex. Each contained texts. The Nag Hammadi texts were in codex form.




They are entirely shot through with various biases and mutually contradictory statements, which indicate that one and all were forged much later than the events.


Kind-of like that ...


A tu quoque isn't a very useful comment as a rule. It does display an unwillingness to listen, but nothing more.



Those books have no more bias or contradictory statements than the NT currently has.


It's usually best to read texts before commenting on them.



The NT books were chosen by the one and only Holy Roman empire.


I'm afraid you are mistaken. There is no one point at which the canon evolved. Don't take my word for it -- do a bit of research.



But think about this, if the Gnostics had been chosen, the form of Christianity would be very different. People should probably take the time to ask themselves if they are practicing Christianity or Constantinity.


This is all based on a series of factual errors, tho. It's usually best to get the facts straight before jumping to such conclusions.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[edit on 7/6/2005 by roger_pearse]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Originally posted by jake1997
As late as the 21st century and as early as the 7th, islam declared that.

If islam did not declare that, then there would be no islam as it exists today because Christ would be the son of God.

The conspiracy in this is muhammeds attempt to hijack christianity.


This is exactly right. If christ did not die on the cross than he could not cleanse sins of mankind. It's islamic propaganda.


Islam is not propaganda but it completes the other two relgion Christianity and Judiasm

There is a couple of thing i would like to piont out , The bible and Torah had been change it writing several times.
Example in christianty jesus is the son of God , But God does not have a son or daughter or husband or wife because he is the creator he is complete and perfect

Jesus and the Cross, its true in islam jesus was not been put on the cross but one of his student who he betryed him. Jesus was send to the God and wont come out til its near judment day to fight the anit-christ.

As for taking thing from the bible and torah, the prophet Mohummed was not former christian or jew . The time period is different with different people . Prophet Muhammed was send down by God like the other Prophet before him



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 03:58 AM
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If the God of any religion..in this case islam...could not keep his original works complete but instead had to get a new prophet to write a new book, because bad men ruined all his other books.. then he is not worthy of worship.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
If the God of any religion..in this case islam...could not keep his original works complete but instead had to get a new prophet to write a new book, because bad men ruined all his other books.. then he is not worthy of worship.


?explain more i didnt understand you?


The Quran, Bible and Torah ffirst came is not someone wrote it but it came from God. but the Bible and Torah is altered by people due there selfish needs and political power



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by eazy_mas
The Quran, Bible and Torah ffirst came is not someone wrote it but it came from God.

Supposedly! It was still a human interpretation which turned into a book.

but the Bible and Torah is altered by people due there selfish needs and political power

Yea thats right Quran is never altered because we can all relate to the ubiqitous preachings of violence in any era.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by eazy_mas

Originally posted by jake1997
If the God of any religion..in this case islam...could not keep his original works complete but instead had to get a new prophet to write a new book, because bad men ruined all his other books.. then he is not worthy of worship.


?explain more i didnt understand you?


The Quran, Bible and Torah ffirst came is not someone wrote it but it came from God. but the Bible and Torah is altered by people due there selfish needs and political power


Im saying this. If what you say is true... then that god who wrote the bible, torah, quran is a wimp. A wuss. He cant stop man.

If I see him I do this on him



posted on Jun, 10 2005 @ 03:50 AM
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Shonet1430, you seem to be well versed in Judaism. I only know general things about it, so I would appreciate if you would shed some light on a question I have:
Is the Messiah supposed to be the one who will establish the state of Israel again? I've heard this a few times and some verses you posted regarding Ingathering of Israel suggest this.
Now the thing is, Israel already exists and the Messiah never showed up.
How do you explain this?





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