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Originally posted by centurion1211
Why do you keep defending what any reader with an ounce (a couple grams) of brains can tell is indefensible? Did you help write it, or something?
Regarding your '50 years of rationalization" comment, reminds me of that old saying about a camel being a horse that was designed by a committee (after making all their rationalizations).
Any reader with an ounce (a couple grams) of brains can also see that while you could certainly do worse than using the U.S. Constitution as a model, it would be hard to find a better model.
And can you imagine if the U.S. Constitution started out with "The Governor of Alabama, the Governor of Arkansas, ..., instead of "We the People"? Those two different opening sentences really do create a different sense of what the documents are about and who they are really for./quote]
- Yeah, very interesting.
Anyhoo, like I said we have a union of nations (several centuries old), not an undefined single country.
Your insistance that the US constitution is what is required and superior to the proposed EU 'constitution' merely indicates you haven't the first idea about the EU's document and it's purpose.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by StarBreather
Actually, they are.
- No they are not.
An overlong text that gives free rein to bureaucrats is reason for suspicion, even on formal grounds. Even without reading 400 pages, something that starts with "His majesty XYZ" must be crap.
- This is ridiculous.
The document is a rationalisation of 50 or so years worth of treaties and agreements between sovereign nation states.
It is a highly legal and complex document.
- This so-called 'constitution' is a hugely complex document and to pretend it might have an easy populist appeal is just ludicrous.
Originally posted by StarBreather
Yes, they are!
You YES supporters are shamelessly promoting the notion that the YES is because of the constitution, but the NO is not because of the constitution. According to you, the NO is because of primal feelings, like fear.
One just has to read the constitution to see that it is bureaucratic glop that will increase the overclass of self-appointed officials in Brussels.
It is the result of 50 years of good life at the public expense.
Ask the French and the Germans: they pay the taxes. These funds are siphoned off to other countries so that their economies can "converge", but usually end up in the pockets of local politicians and well-connected "capitalists". Their economies would have converged anyway, with no friendly help from Europe, the funds only distort the market.
Ok, this constitution doesn't have the easy populist appeal. But it has the difficult populist appeal.
There is a class of people that is irresistibly attracted to that style of writing.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I'm looking forward to the international document (never mind one appropriate to 25+ countries) you can produce that is not full of highly precise 'legal-ese' and "glop".
The idea is pretty detached from reality IMO.
You'll also find that these so-called "self appointed officials in Brussels" are nothing of the sort. Those with any actual clout are either appointed by the national governments or are delegates from the national governments or are the Ministers or Prime Ministers/Presidents of the national governments.
It is the result of 50 years of good life at the public expense.
- Oh dear.
Yet another broad brush swipe at this document which manages to utterly avoid the real point.
Tell me how would you rationalise, update and integrate the Treaty of Paris, the Treaty of Rome, the single Market Act etc etc?
(By the way, where are you guys getting this ridiculous nonsense that the EU is setting taxation rates in the nation states?)
- It's called law.
It's not easy, it is very precise (and rightly so) and hence lengthy and many people find it hard to see the point of (until they need it or are subject to or of it themselves of course).
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
We don't call the French people exercising the democratic right to disagree a "stab in the back" or any such childishly melodramatic nonsense.
They are a free people and if they reject the 'constitution' (as it is their right to do) then we will all have to re-examine the thing.
You are however speaking volumes about you own (American) mentality.
Originally posted by StarBreather
The need to make the document very lengthy and precise arises from the ambition to set up anchors for future control of every facet of the citizens' lives.
Were the European construction not in the hands of fanatics, we would have a more sensible text, grounded on generally accepted principles and consonant with the lessons of history.
As it is, the constitution is a manifestation of euro-radicalism.
This is exactly what I meant. The appointments are a closed system.
After putting your vote in the ballot, there is no democratic control, and no balance of powers.
There may be balance of powers horizontally (like, between the parliament and the comission), but there is no balance vertically (politicians are appointed by their peers within the professional political elite).
In France, they even have a special university to produce politicians (the École Nationale d' Administration).
The real point, being that there is this militant duty to build the great Europe!
At the very beginning, Robert Schuman said: "France accomplishes the first decisive act of the European construction". To me, this irrational belief borders on cultism.
A big ambition of some European states is to have no fiscal competition from the new entrants.
The present constitution gives the EU the powers to harmonise the tax rates of member states (only by unanimous vote, for now).
But do you think they will stop here? There are already calls for new EU-wide taxes.
The drive and the tendency is to create an autonomous entity with its own taxation base, not one that depends from the member states, but one who only commands.
Witness the coldness, the cynicism, the contempt of the people that is patent in these words.
Napoleon said "la France, c'est moi". He had the arrogance of thinking that he was an equal to millions of people, just because he was able to hide behind laws of his own authorship.
[ Europe must be rescued from these luminaries, before it is too late.
Originally posted by Bulldog 52
Don't take any notice of these people , the French never followed any European Union rules they just looked after their own people
they break the rules all the time.
I hope that the EU disintegrates
as its political corrupt and a waste of money.
Originally posted by StarBreather
Result:
"With about 83 percent of the votes counted, the referendum was rejected by 57.26 percent of voters, the Interior Ministry said. The treaty was supported by 42.74 percent, the ministry said."
What this means: no more monkeying around, solve the problems at home before venturing on large-scale socialist projects.
Sminkeypinkey, have anything to say?
Originally posted by vengalen
I dont suppose there is any chance that the French just plain did not want to sign up to a constitution that would lead them into being part of a Federal Europe?
Almost 55% of people voted "No", with 45% in favour. Turnout was high, at about 70%.
Wonder what reason the Euro luvies
will give if the Neterlands reject it
or even (perish the thoughtg) the Brits:
Originally posted by djohnsto77
It appears that France and the U.S. might not be that different after all:
Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
For years our gov't didn't inform us on what the EU is all about, only in the last couple of weeks they gave us leaflets, which a normal person just cant understand, vaguely discribing what the constitution is all about.
Last week, we have been bombarded with propaganda, pure propaganda!
Our minister of internal affairs told us that we should vote Yes, otherwise there will be a war in Europe again.
Only the burocrats in Brussels benefit from this.
Individual countries will lose many of their veto's, lose the control of their own country.
NON, NEIN, NO, NEE !!!
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- No one ever talked about the EU in Holland before this proposed Treaty?!
Pull the other one.
How old are you?
- That'll be from both sides, right?
- I think you'll find he was comparing and contrasting the track record and possibilities of a fragmented Europe of competing nation states and that of our cooperative united Europe.
Given our history that is a perfectly reasonable thing to point out.
- You seriously think the tracj record of the EU is one that has not benefitted the general public in the European countries?!
- So the anti side are desparate for everyone to believe.
It's a nonsense (as their claims have always been a nonsense).
The truth is the national Parliaments are actually strengthened by this Treaty.
- It hardly matters now France has said "no".
Originally posted by Zion Mainframe
No, not in the media
My age has nothing to do with this.
Both the YES, and the NO camp admit the government didn't inform the people of Holland enough, last couple of years.
No my friend, not from both sides. Both the YES and NO camp were given an equal ammount of money to inform us what to vote.
So there wasn't/isn't and equal ammount propaganda from both sides.
does a constitution prevent war in Europe?
Is it necessary to have such a constitution, which nobody really understands, because it is over 400 pages long.
To my opinion a stronger EU parlement, will only increase the frustration of the people. More and more silly, irrelevent rules are layed upon us by the EU.
The individual countries will have less to say about their own country, rules and laws.
THe EU is so devided, so different in so many ways, creating a United States of Europe (which is probably inevitable) musn't be created too fast. It will take decades, if not centuries before the people of Europe will feel European, instead of Dutch, German or French.
The necessity of a EU constitution just isn't there.
How is it possible that almost the entire Dutch and French government (excluding a few parties) support the constitution, while more than half the people do not?
Do you know how many people in Germany and Sweden are relieved that the French vote against it?
This is absolutely NOT true, losing the veto's (almost all of them) will give the national parlements less power.
Also, even after that, the EU parlement can still ignore than and pass the law (or whatever they came up with).
Yup, but when the Dutch also vote against it, it shows the people of Europe just don't want it (yet).
We now have the oppertunity to say something about Europe and the constitution, hopefully they will listen now.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I'm sorry but I find this difficult to believe to the point where I just cannot believe this.
You are seriously trying to say that with enlargement having just happened and in the run-up to this referendum vote no-one in the Netherlands in the media or government was talking about the EU?!
(maybe you don't follow the political goings on as much as you think?)
It could be that you are too young to have engaged much in adult debate about it all.
Don't Dutch people talk about the Common Fisheries Policy and conservation (you do still have Dutch fishermen, hmm?)
I find this very hard to believe......and how come I'm aware of this stuff when I'm in the UK; probably the least pro-EU country in all of the EU!.
- There is a world of difference to say the gov did not do enough and claiming they did nothing.
So, it was both sides afterall then.
- I didn't say it was either. 3.5 million Euro is hardly a huge fortune though......and I'd lay money that this idea (that the gov was adding to "yes" funds) is very much disputed.
Could it be that the gov information was denounced as "yes campaign propaganda" when all it was was additional information, hmmm?
- Not in itself, no.
But then I doubt it would have been put so crudely.
A united and cooperative Europe prevents us warring and the development of Europe is a necessary part of that.
- That is what we are supposed to have specialists and full time gov for.
- ....and yet the EU Parliament has blocked and stopped more than a few of these "silly and irrelvant" rules, has it not, hmmm?
Anyway, how come at one moment you want to complain about an unresponsive EU and the next you want to rid it of it's directly elected component?
- I simply do not believe this to be true.
Quite how anyone can try to to paint the EU as some sort of dictatorial force attempting to force anything on the peoples of Europe after this exercise is beyond me.
This is just another proof of what a nonsense all that anti-EU propaganda is IMO.
- I do not believe we are going for that kind of idea.
I do not believe the peoples of Europe will ever feel 'European' (which they are anyway) without also feeling French, Dutch, German etc etc.
- I don't doubt there is an 'anti-EU' element in Germany & Sweden.
- Actually the opposite is true.
With a veto system the smallest country can impose it's will on all the others whereas with qualified majority voting a colleagiate system of agreement must be sought.
- The EU Parliament has been vital in stopping daft law and forcing revison (witness the software copyright saga).
- Not necessarily.
It could just as much be telling everyone that the people of Holland are, like the French, very unhappy with their government, the current rate of unemployment etc etc.
- Well besides saying "no" what is it you want them to do?
I'm all ears for some constructive ideas besides saying the word "no".