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Following the Underground Stream

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posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Egg Mundane
... ANd what would be the reasons of it.

Take it easy

i hope this little side-bar doesn't disrupt the exchange between M&C

lead in:
from earlier post by M, ...

"geometry underlying the composition of The Shepherds of Arcadia"

consider Salvador Dali composition The Last Supper [take note of the caption under the image of painting]
[edit: the site worked before, but it dosen't seem to work in this hyperlink....sorry 'The Last Supper, Salvador Dali' and maybey the ellenspace site will link up]

"a search for complexities will serve to generate complexities"


in each artwork, 1 being sublime, 1 being obvious, the work intends
to be contemplative.


i myself, 'see' the work The Shepherds of Arcadia as having a
3 dimensional, projection, of a Dali like pentagon...
in which a viewer finds oneself standing in the midst of
if they achieve a proper 'contemplative state' & are able to
dissassociate from their temporal body....truly transcendental works.


[edit on 8-11-2005 by St Udio]

posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 11:44 AM
The pentagram geometry done on the PoS paintings site (which has a woefully low amount of information on it) does say that it uses Christopher Cornford's geometry presented in Henry Lincoln's work. If you look close at the (really crummy) image you'll notice the overlaying lines are strings and that they do extend beyond the confines of the painting's edges. This is the only image I'm able to find of this. Is the geometry on the web site different from what is in Lincoln's book? Obviously the pentagram pattern is important in relation to the treasure hunting aspect of this image, like a kind of coded treasure map. It's a fascinating aspect for sure and one I'd like to hear more about. Not having read the Lincoln work in question, it would seem at least a part of the puzzle is missing or something would have been found by now. Or has what was hidden already been moved to another location?

One thing that should be noted about the search for the ultimate secret treasure is that it represents an initiation process and is an ancient parcel of the rites of mystery cults. That the quest for the lost bloodline of Christ is made to emulate romantic accounts of the quest for the Holy Grail is a play of the punning argot demonstrated in the word play of San Graal/Sang Real. We can not be sure which aspects of all of this are allegorical.

St Udio's point about the geometric composition and the comparison to the Dali "Last Supper" raises an interesting point. There are indeed formulated, mathematical, geometric compositions employed by scenic painters, largely developed during the Renaissance. It serves as another level/aspect of symbolic interaction between the image and the viewer. A Baroque era symbolist is going to make every effort to make as much of their composition symbolically significant as possible. The interactions of levels of symbolism interact and generate new connotations.

posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 02:50 PM
Thanks for trying to clear this up, Cicada. If I'm wrong, I need to be told or I'll never make progress in this mystery...

Originally posted by Cicada
Is the geometry on the web site different from what is in Lincoln's book?

In a number of ways, yes...there is a distinct difference. In The Hole Place, Lincoln has it much more simply put. The overall construction in the PoS site is accurate, however, they continue to place smaller pentacles in the places where they consider would focus the viewer on the pointing finger and away from the face of the upright figure. I don't disagree with what they've done, but it does take away a lot in respect to finding a true center in the painting. With their added pentacles they again zero in on the area of the pointing hands and away from the face of the lady.

When Cornford made his diagram of the pentacle, he enclosed it with the pentagon. From the middle of each side of the pentagon he drew a line to the opposite point of the pentacle. The one which is signifigant to me is the perpendicular line as it runs through the face of the lady. Looking at it this way makes one aware that the painting is 'off to the left' and that the central point really is the feminine face of the upright figure. It also seems to cut a Golden Section into the entire painting.

If you were to do away with everything but the over-large pentacle in the PoS diagram, enclose it entirely with a pentagon and draw those 5 lines through the face to the middle of the pentagon sides, you will have Lincolns diagram.

Henry Lincolns book deals heavily with the placement of structures on the French landscape according to Golden Section, pentagons, hexagons and even a ten pointed star. It all becomes a bit much unless you have accurate detailed maps upon a wall and pins and strings to connect it all (which he does give instructions on in an appendix, even suggesting what maps to buy).

The upshot of the book is this presumption he has made on his analysis;

There can be no doubt that churches, calvaires, castles and obscure ruins-almost every structure of note upon the map- form an intricate web of alignments which intersect with perfect regularity on the zero meridian.

He goes on to say though;

Most interesting was the reaction of a Cambridge lecturer in Pre-History. While unable to dismiss the facts which he could see before him, he was nevertheless constrained to sum up the findings as presenting only three alternative explanations.
1) 'Outer Space'-which both he and I find nonsensical.
2) "Conspiracy'-i.e. the map-makersof the French Geographical Institute are continuing (presumably to order) to perpetuate a body of secret knowledge. Again we both agree that this is an extremely unlikely possibility.
3) My methology is wrong

And his final speculation, which fills me with wonder;

It is my suspicion that the builders of the Temple of Rennes-le-Chateau will indeed prove to be part of that culture which produced Stonehenge and Carnac, and to date from approximately the same period, i.e. c1500BC; far enough in the past for their activities to be, if not completely forgotten, then only dim folk memories by the time the Romans came to this part of the world.

[edit on 8-11-2005 by masqua]

posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 03:05 PM

Originally posted by St Udio
consider Salvador Dali composition The Last Supper

Your input is hardly disruptive, St Udio and any leads are good leads. I have a full sized poster of 'The Sacrament of the Last Supper' 1955, in my collection, but am unwilling to start measuring and drafting symbols upon it without asking if this was the same painting you meant?

Your link wouldn't work for me and he was soooo prolific.

[edit on 8-11-2005 by masqua]

posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 04:05 PM
Pardon me if this has been addressed, but I really don't feel like going into research right now looking for this.

This is a good topic, I like analyzing paintings and their meanings. I was looking in the clouds in this painting, and saw an odd shaped cloud in the upper right hand portion. Upon further observation, I saw a face within the clouds, maybe I'm seeing things, not sure, but this face seems to be pretty detailed on close examination, and the painter obviously had a purpose for the design of everything in this painting, with no exception to the detail of the clouds.

Take a look at my crude outline of the face:

Then take a look at the original painting, and concentrate on the area that I have previously outlined and you will see it. There is without a doubt a face there, take a look at both eyes, the outline of the nose, and the mouth:

Now the question is, is this intentional, and if so, what does this mean and how does it coincide with the painting?

[edit on 8-11-2005 by GaMbLeR]

[edit on 8-11-2005 by GaMbLeR]

posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 03:40 PM
I would definately agree on the shadow. To me it seems to imply something. I'm not sure if it is demonic. What is this underground stream that you speak of? Sorry if that is a stupid question, but I am new to this topic.

posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 04:09 PM
There are, more than likely, a thousand interpretations of the Underground Stream and this web page even details a specific place for it:
The lost Roman city of Glanum...

IMO and in a nutshell, if you consider the major religions of the western world (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and also enduring pagan religions) as having a common root from which they all sprang, then that is the 'underground stream' from which they issue, like springs upon the surface.

I believe that there are those connections between all religions...and it is those commonalities which point the way to understanding the whole of religious experience.

posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 06:05 PM
Masqua, are you referring to things like the flood being universal? I have heard this being called universal subconscious, but never an underground stream. Or is it more esoteric than that? Are you talking more about invisible connections between, say Judaism and Shinto beyond seemingly similar mythology?

posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 06:13 PM
Nice thread.

Looks like I'll have to take a closer look at Cicada's posts when I get a chance.

These paintings seem to be about the sexual Work related to converting the Rough Ashlar of Yesod, into the Perfect Ashlar of Yesod.

The Brute Stone into the Perfected Stone.

And of course, the Work with the Divine Mother Kundalini(Amma(Parvati-Shakti) of Binah).

For a break-down, see this thread:

Shepherds of Arcadia

Meshach, Shadrack, and Abednego contemplating Yesod:

Meshach: "We have been working with this stone for many years and now it is finally cubic."

Shadrack: "Yes. it is cubic, but it is not yet polished, I can see many gaps in it!"

Abednego: "Mother of mine, what do you think, does it needs more polishing?

Divine Mother: "Yes, my son, it needs to be perfectly polished, you must work harder to refine the sacrament of the Church of ROMAE (AMORE).

[edit on 14-11-2005 by Tamahu]

posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 07:05 PM

Originally posted by ApolloSinclair
Masqua, are you referring to things like the flood being universal? I have heard this being called universal subconscious, but never an underground stream. Or is it more esoteric than that? Are you talking more about invisible connections between, say Judaism and Shinto beyond seemingly similar mythology?

Although there are numerous legends around the world which have a great flood as a part of their traditional religious systems, (like the Maya do), I'm more of the opinion that these were localized events, like the flooding of the Mediteranian basin as written about in Frazers The Golden Bough. There are many such examples throughout the world.

But more so, I'm talking about the commonalities in underlying myth. For instance, the death and rebirth of Attis, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra and Zoroaster. There are many other relationships besides this common mythical theme, but investigating just this alone can be enlightening.

Here is a handy site where you can make this connection. is a more detailed look

If we consider these common features, it isn't difficult to think they originated from a central 'original' religion

[edit on 14-11-2005 by masqua]

posted on Nov, 18 2005 @ 12:18 PM
The underground stream is a poetic way to refer to the transmission of knowledge through encrypted means over long periods of time. It's intimately entwined with alchemical symbolism/hermeticism, et al. It's a big, complex subject. The material of Weirdner and Bridges linked to by masqua is a good place to start. Manly P. Hall also has interesting things to say on the subject in "The Secret Teachings of All Ages".

The Cryptogram as a factor in Symbolic Philosophy

It relates to concepts of the Rosicrucian Invisible College. Much of this material was/is utilized in an initiatory manner and relates to the concept of degrees within mystery cults/secret societies.

What masqua is stating about the commonalties within mythological systems is a part of it. Comparative mythology is a tool utilized to make layered allegories and interassociated symbol systems. There are parallels that run through certainly Western theologies, as they are all part of the Indo-European line of languages and cultures. India is also the starting point of much of the eastern philosophical systems and their interaction with the advanced and ancient Chinese is apparent. These very real correspondences between major features and characters of mythological systems are not the secret information being transmitted through the underground stream but more a medium for the communication.

It must be understood that at times, such as during the 17th century when Poussin was working, there were serious consequences for expressing concepts considered heretical. For a philosophical concept to survive through periods of time of persecution and attack it must be hidden in such a way as to be invisible or under the attention of almost everyone who perceives it but at least partially apparent to someone with the right knowledge, information or perception. The deciphering of the code then serves as an initiation process in its own right. The image of a stream emerging or returning underground, a spring or fountain, etc. are all basic images that suggest an image could have a buried, esoteric significance.

As stated, the Cabala and the Sephirothic tree are integral components in these systems of symbolism. The flash of lightning pattern described above is a pattern utilized to communicate a concept essentially similar to that of the underground stream. Note that there is the mirror image version of this painting and the fact that I felt there was something backward in the apparent pattern of the composition. In the Tree can be found the cross, the grail, the pentagram, the hexagram, the Ankh, the rose cross, the square and compass, the pyramid, the all-seeing eye, the speaking or severed head, the pillar(s), the tower(s), the grail, the stone, the sword in the stone, etc., etc. It is as Tamahu points out phallic but it is likewise yonic. It is the male and female, positive and negative, yin and yang. It is a tool for mapping the cosmos and the human body, as above so below, the macrocosm and the microcosm.

Tamahu thank you for your post, intriguing as always. The linked discussion was interesting as well. The fact that there is so much apparent confusion regarding the identity and even gender of the right-hand figure is interesting and doubtless Poussin intentionally performed this ambiguity. The symbolic connotation of a hermaphroditic or androgynous being is major in alchemical systems. Artists of a symbolic-leaning nature throughout art history perform this gender play; most famously in the Da Vinci veiled self-portrait Mona Lisa and the St.John/Mary Magdalene interassociations in images including Da Vinci's "Last Supper". This androgynous characteristic is a frequent feature of solar characters like Jesus/Mythras/Attys/Serapis/Krishna/Buddha. Yes Jesus is included in that list. Think of how Jesus is usually depicted in art and you will see that this is the case. Underneath the beard are decidedly feminine features.

posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 06:21 AM
are any of you familiar with the writings of Churchward ca. the 30s?
He had some interesting theories on the idea that all religions have a single root.

posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 09:41 AM

I'm not familiar with Churchward but I found this easily enough:

Sacred Symbols of Mu

which looks like an interesting read that I'll try to get to soon.

posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 09:33 PM
that is one of his. there are 3 that I know of. I have only rear 2 of them
the third is out of print . I need to try and find it again as well as the second one. I let a friend borrow it and never got it back.

posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 02:40 PM
I just came across your posts on this subject, and though I am pretty ignorant of the details of it all, I just wanted to add this from my perspective.

Without knowing anything about this picture, the shadow struck me immediately as looking like the shadow of a Satyr. Then in reading this post and reading through the painters history page I found out that the god of these Shepard’s was in fact supposed to be Pan, who I am pretty darn sure is a Satyr.

[edit on 12/22/2005 by defcon5]

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