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WAR: Koran Flushing & Abuse - Newsweek Retracts, Washington Post Digs Deeper
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Prison abuse scandals involving U.S. personnel and foreign detainees continue beyond the retraction of the recent Newsweek story. Digging a little
deeper, the Washington Post reports on what FBI investigators found out on the "korans flushed down the toilet" allegations and other forms of
anti-Islamic cultural abuse. Maybe the smell of upline policy directives will never go away.
www.washingtonpost.com
Guantanamo Guards Accused of Mistreating Koran
Newly Released FBI Documents Detail Allegations
By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 25, 2005
Nearly a dozen detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran, including one who said in 2002 that guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," according to new FBI documents released today.
The summaries of FBI interviews, obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit, also include allegations that the Koran was kicked, thrown to the floor and withheld as punishment and that guards mocked Muslim prisoners during prayers.
Records released by the government May 19 to the ACLU and made public today summarizing interviews with detainees.
The release of the new FBI documents comes in the wake of an international uproar over a now-retracted story by Newsweek magazine, which reported that an internal military report had confirmed that a Koran was flushed down a toilet. The retracted story has been linked by the Bush administration to deadly riots overseas...
A Defense Department spokesman was not immediately available for comment today. Pentagon officials have said previously that detainee allegations about the Koran have not been considered credible, although authorities have launched an internal review in the wake of the Newsweek controversy.
"The failure to address these allegations in a timely manner raises grave questions regarding the extent to which such desecration was authorized by high-ranking U.S. officials in the first place."...
The new documents include other allegations of questionable treatment at Guantanamo, including two reports of beatings by guards and a report that a female guard told a prisoner she was menstruating and then "wiped blood from her body on his face and head..."
Following the reports of Koran mistreatment by the Red Cross and others, the Pentagon issued rules in January 2003 governing the handling of the book and forbidding its placement on the floor, near a toilet or in other "dirty/wet areas."
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
I read an ATS post recently that compared the Newsweek allegations of "koran flushing" and subsequent retraction with what happened on CNN concerning George W Bush's military service record and his unexplained AWOL periods.
The story behind the story can be true, whether it's retracted by the original presenter or not.
These are the days of leaks and propaganda covering who-knows-what evil and muck! It pays to not close your eyes to the possibility that what you are told is true then what you are told is untrue, may be true. This is proven here, the facts are more substantial than the furore around the retraction.
In any event, the kind of abuses listed in the WP article are culturally extremely offensive. I would hope that there are not too many readers here that would view them as being appropriate treatment of detainees. But this is a diverse readership with broad ranging intellect or lack of, and ethics or lack of.
Vive le difference.
[edit on 28-5-2005 by ZeddicusZulZorander]
www.washingtonpost.com
Guantanamo Guards Accused of Mistreating Koran
Newly Released FBI Documents Detail Allegations
By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 25, 2005
Nearly a dozen detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran, including one who said in 2002 that guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," according to new FBI documents released today.
The summaries of FBI interviews, obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit, also include allegations that the Koran was kicked, thrown to the floor and withheld as punishment and that guards mocked Muslim prisoners during prayers.
Records released by the government May 19 to the ACLU and made public today summarizing interviews with detainees.
The release of the new FBI documents comes in the wake of an international uproar over a now-retracted story by Newsweek magazine, which reported that an internal military report had confirmed that a Koran was flushed down a toilet. The retracted story has been linked by the Bush administration to deadly riots overseas...
A Defense Department spokesman was not immediately available for comment today. Pentagon officials have said previously that detainee allegations about the Koran have not been considered credible, although authorities have launched an internal review in the wake of the Newsweek controversy.
"The failure to address these allegations in a timely manner raises grave questions regarding the extent to which such desecration was authorized by high-ranking U.S. officials in the first place."...
The new documents include other allegations of questionable treatment at Guantanamo, including two reports of beatings by guards and a report that a female guard told a prisoner she was menstruating and then "wiped blood from her body on his face and head..."
Following the reports of Koran mistreatment by the Red Cross and others, the Pentagon issued rules in January 2003 governing the handling of the book and forbidding its placement on the floor, near a toilet or in other "dirty/wet areas."
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
I read an ATS post recently that compared the Newsweek allegations of "koran flushing" and subsequent retraction with what happened on CNN concerning George W Bush's military service record and his unexplained AWOL periods.
The story behind the story can be true, whether it's retracted by the original presenter or not.
These are the days of leaks and propaganda covering who-knows-what evil and muck! It pays to not close your eyes to the possibility that what you are told is true then what you are told is untrue, may be true. This is proven here, the facts are more substantial than the furore around the retraction.
In any event, the kind of abuses listed in the WP article are culturally extremely offensive. I would hope that there are not too many readers here that would view them as being appropriate treatment of detainees. But this is a diverse readership with broad ranging intellect or lack of, and ethics or lack of.
Vive le difference.
[edit on 28-5-2005 by ZeddicusZulZorander]
To the individual who voted "No, this is a repeat" on this news submission fully 20 seconds after it was posted, the following questions:
1. Do you realize this is a new story published today, not covered before.
2. Did you read it?
3. Would you mind linking to where it has been covered before?
This is not about the Newsweek story. It is about FOI requests that have been made public to uncover the truth.
1. Do you realize this is a new story published today, not covered before.
2. Did you read it?
3. Would you mind linking to where it has been covered before?
This is not about the Newsweek story. It is about FOI requests that have been made public to uncover the truth.
Yes the Yahoo story has similar elements to the Washington Post story, well observed. Thanks for the link!
Which goes to show, some of the more significant news about government conspiracy and cover-up methodologies floats right by, never read or upgraded, never registering a blip on the radar screen of more than a few ATS members.
Perhaps the author of this current thread ought to cede to the previous thread, or recognize that people aren't that interested at all in learning how they are being manipulated by the media.
Which goes to show, some of the more significant news about government conspiracy and cover-up methodologies floats right by, never read or upgraded, never registering a blip on the radar screen of more than a few ATS members.
Perhaps the author of this current thread ought to cede to the previous thread, or recognize that people aren't that interested at all in learning how they are being manipulated by the media.
MA, I don't think these allegations are really anything new. The Newsweek article said, for the first time, that the government was confirming them.
That was clearly wrong.
Also, The Washington Post owns Newsweek, so they may have an agenda here.
Also, The Washington Post owns Newsweek, so they may have an agenda here.
I see the Washington Post as being just slightly right of center, while I bet many at ATS sees them as "leftist" in covering Bush-unfriendly
scandals as they ought to be covered.
Washington Post Co. owns a truckload of publications, see here:
www.cjr.org...
Let's see how their "overt" agenda competes with the Bush administration agenda of obfuscation, cover-up, denial and prisoner abuse.
Washington Post Co. owns a truckload of publications, see here:
www.cjr.org...
Let's see how their "overt" agenda competes with the Bush administration agenda of obfuscation, cover-up, denial and prisoner abuse.
Just one question, after knowing that quite a few Muslims have taken rumors like this one a bit too far, including killing people because of this
rumor...why is it that some people want to continue trying to present stories like this one?....
I guess some people don't care that other people could be dying for this...
Ah, the so called peacemongers.....i guess they have a new definition for trying to achieve peace... Perhaps they should be called, "the new warmongers."
[edit on 25-5-2005 by Muaddib]
I guess some people don't care that other people could be dying for this...
Ah, the so called peacemongers.....i guess they have a new definition for trying to achieve peace... Perhaps they should be called, "the new warmongers."
[edit on 25-5-2005 by Muaddib]
The quest for truth is not one that conceals the dirty laundry of corrupt government administrations.
Yep, and meanwhile some people don't care if others die because of this unfounded rumor...again...
I am almost certain there might be some truth in this. As in guards searching cells and dropping korans and such. But what I hate the most, is that even after the Washington Post saw what so many Muslims did around the world because of their story which was founded on rumors, they decided to try to regain their image, even if it costs the lives of other people.
BTW, it is beside the point, things like this could be done by individuals and the government officials could have known nothing about it. The point is once again, that some people don't seem to care if other people die...meanwhile they try to clean up their public image, more violence and death could erupt because of this.
Yep, some people are showing their true self with this.
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Muaddib]
I am almost certain there might be some truth in this. As in guards searching cells and dropping korans and such. But what I hate the most, is that even after the Washington Post saw what so many Muslims did around the world because of their story which was founded on rumors, they decided to try to regain their image, even if it costs the lives of other people.
BTW, it is beside the point, things like this could be done by individuals and the government officials could have known nothing about it. The point is once again, that some people don't seem to care if other people die...meanwhile they try to clean up their public image, more violence and death could erupt because of this.
Yep, some people are showing their true self with this.
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Muaddib]
In the "war on terror" declared by George W Bush, where he made the most statesmanlike pronunciation "You're either with us or against us" - a
most bizarre provocative statement dividing the world in two - people are going to needlessly die for years to come, until a force with a better
collective brain and a sense of diplomacy takes the place of the Bush administration influence.
There is a strong degree of likelihood that the abuse of religious scriptures has been mandated by senior officials in the administration. Whether it stems from Rumsfeld or Gonzales or predecessors or a military think tank is not material. It is highly unlikely to be an experiment or misdirected game on the part of bored imprisoners.
To deny this because of dogmatic faith in an administration or its self-proclaimed mission, and to blame foreign resistance and hatred of the administration behind detention of foreigners on the news coverage of this small new chapter in the sad saga [bearing in mind the baseline of already known abuses at Abu Ghraib etc], is just barking up the wrong tree.
No-one will die because of this post.
There is a strong degree of likelihood that the abuse of religious scriptures has been mandated by senior officials in the administration. Whether it stems from Rumsfeld or Gonzales or predecessors or a military think tank is not material. It is highly unlikely to be an experiment or misdirected game on the part of bored imprisoners.
To deny this because of dogmatic faith in an administration or its self-proclaimed mission, and to blame foreign resistance and hatred of the administration behind detention of foreigners on the news coverage of this small new chapter in the sad saga [bearing in mind the baseline of already known abuses at Abu Ghraib etc], is just barking up the wrong tree.
No-one will die because of this post.
And meanwhile you don't care if such a story would create more violence and death, because the story is backing your agenda against the US
administration.
You are creating violence and death by posting this in here...we even have some members in these same forums which obviously have a more extremist view of Islam... We have had some members even in the past who have posted their own delluded version of Islamic extremism calling for the death of the US, etc, etc...
Are you that different from what you claim from president Bush, when you should know by now that there have been violent revolts and death when the story based on Newsweek was a rumor?......
Excerpted from.
www.timesonline.co.uk...
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Muaddib]
You are creating violence and death by posting this in here...we even have some members in these same forums which obviously have a more extremist view of Islam... We have had some members even in the past who have posted their own delluded version of Islamic extremism calling for the death of the US, etc, etc...
Are you that different from what you claim from president Bush, when you should know by now that there have been violent revolts and death when the story based on Newsweek was a rumor?......
AT LEAST nine people were killed yesterday as a wave of anti-American demonstrations swept the Islamic world from the Gaza Strip to the Java Sea, sparked by a single paragraph in a magazine alleging that US military interrogators had desecrated the Koran.
Excerpted from.
www.timesonline.co.uk...
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Muaddib]
Originally submitted by MaskedAvatar
There is a strong degree of likelihood that the abuse of religious scriptures has been mandated by senior officials in the administration.
That is nothing but an unfounded allegation on your part, which you can't prove, as now you try to take the blame from yourself and put it once more on the US administration.
It was Washington post, Newsweek and yourself who have presented this story once more, even after knowing that the first time this came out from a rumor it caused unnecessary violence and death.
Muadibb, I believe the entire point of this ATSNN article is that while Newsweek retracted the story under pressure, there are FBI reports of such
desecration.
Are we simply to forget the entire point of this story?
Are we simply to forget the truth that there are allegations of such desecration?
Perhaps we are to double-think?
Tell me, what is your view of these recently revealed FBI documents?
Just from a hypothetical standpoint, if someone were to be skeptical of witness acounts and apply this skepticism to every court case in American history, I fear there edit: might be less criminals found in this country.
edited for absolutes
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Jamuhn]
Are we simply to forget the entire point of this story?
Are we simply to forget the truth that there are allegations of such desecration?
Perhaps we are to double-think?
Tell me, what is your view of these recently revealed FBI documents?
Just from a hypothetical standpoint, if someone were to be skeptical of witness acounts and apply this skepticism to every court case in American history, I fear there edit: might be less criminals found in this country.
edited for absolutes
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Jamuhn]
Jamuh, after knowing what the first story, which was founded on a rumor did, this should have been handled differently.
Isn't kind of strange that not so long after it was proclaimed to have been just a rumor, now the Washington Post, the parent of Newsweek is claiming they have evidence that it was true?....
That in itself is suspicious to me, not only that, but this is probably going to create more violence and even death.
Weren't you all against the coalition going to Iraq, even thou all the evidence was clearly saying there were wmd?
Weren't people calling for restrain and asking for more time, after we gave Saddam years to get rid of all his inventory, documents and anything dealing with wmd?....
Isn't this in a way, more or less the same thing?
Were is the call for restrain and caution in here?....
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Muaddib]
Isn't kind of strange that not so long after it was proclaimed to have been just a rumor, now the Washington Post, the parent of Newsweek is claiming they have evidence that it was true?....
That in itself is suspicious to me, not only that, but this is probably going to create more violence and even death.
Weren't you all against the coalition going to Iraq, even thou all the evidence was clearly saying there were wmd?
Weren't people calling for restrain and asking for more time, after we gave Saddam years to get rid of all his inventory, documents and anything dealing with wmd?....
Isn't this in a way, more or less the same thing?
Were is the call for restrain and caution in here?....
[edit on 26-5-2005 by Muaddib]
I don't think it's a matter of anyone claiming it is true. It's a matter of the government denying such allegations and then an FBI report turning
up revealing that there were such allegations.
My lack of support for the invasion of Iraq would not be the same in this case. As there were allegations, I do not deny there were allegations they had WMD. While I remained skeptical of the reports at the start, my skepticism was confirmed when no WMDs turned up.
Which is why I asked you what you thought of these FBI reports. Do you simply think the detainees are lying?
My lack of support for the invasion of Iraq would not be the same in this case. As there were allegations, I do not deny there were allegations they had WMD. While I remained skeptical of the reports at the start, my skepticism was confirmed when no WMDs turned up.
Which is why I asked you what you thought of these FBI reports. Do you simply think the detainees are lying?
The government never denied that such allegations were made, only that they could never be substantiated.
Senior Defense Department officials yesterday said there is no evidence corroborating a news report that interrogators flushed a Koran down a toilet to intimidate Muslim prisoners held at U.S. Naval Base Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
www.washingtontimes.com...
I don't know, that seems to be denying witness reports right there. Perhaps they aren't credible because they are "terrorists."
It does appear though that the reports from Newsweek are not the same as those the Washington Post is reporting.
Perhaps that is what the DoD was actually disputing rather than the FBI reports of such.
Perhaps that is what the DoD was actually disputing rather than the FBI reports of such.
First of all, I find it extremelly strange that such a report would appear so fast.
Second of all, do note that the report seems to "suggest" that guards mishandled the koran, when searching the prisoners cells, it does not mean they were intentionally doing it, and there is supposedly 1 report of a man claiming his Koran was flushed.
BTW, how in the world do you "flush" a Koran? Even the small versions of the holy books provided by the military cannot be flushed down a toilet. They can be thrown in the toilet, or it can fall, as some guards put them in the litrines searching for weapons or anything illegal in the prisoner's cells. But flushing it down a toilet? i don't think so.
BTW, do you actually think this is enough of a reason for the violence and death this newest article will bring?
Second of all, do note that the report seems to "suggest" that guards mishandled the koran, when searching the prisoners cells, it does not mean they were intentionally doing it, and there is supposedly 1 report of a man claiming his Koran was flushed.
BTW, how in the world do you "flush" a Koran? Even the small versions of the holy books provided by the military cannot be flushed down a toilet. They can be thrown in the toilet, or it can fall, as some guards put them in the litrines searching for weapons or anything illegal in the prisoner's cells. But flushing it down a toilet? i don't think so.
BTW, do you actually think this is enough of a reason for the violence and death this newest article will bring?
Haha, yea, I doubt they literally meant flushing it down the toilet, but who knows. Guards may have just immersed it or torn out pages like the
prisoner did.
I don't think a lot of reports are worth the deaths that they cause. I mean, how much bloodshed have we seen throughout history merely because of someone's words. We can't simply not report such things because someone will be offended by it and do something extreme. To do so would take away a lot of our freedoms and a lot of our responsibilities.
I think a more pertinent question would be...Do extremist Muslims really think such reports are enough of a reason to warrant violence? It seems they do, and that's not something we can easily change. The change will ultimately need to come from them.
I don't think a lot of reports are worth the deaths that they cause. I mean, how much bloodshed have we seen throughout history merely because of someone's words. We can't simply not report such things because someone will be offended by it and do something extreme. To do so would take away a lot of our freedoms and a lot of our responsibilities.
I think a more pertinent question would be...Do extremist Muslims really think such reports are enough of a reason to warrant violence? It seems they do, and that's not something we can easily change. The change will ultimately need to come from them.
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