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"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

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posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Now when I took the oath (I feel ) that I (may have) went against my beliefs, when I had to accept the fact that the Masonic belief has made my God the Christian God an equal with other gods, beings or any another idol ?

I am also a little concerned as a Christian about praying to the One and Only True God under the same roof while others are praying to their gods whom may be against my God ?

I took the time to research this in the bible, because this is what God expects out of us as Christians and this is what I have found:

The Lord said : Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?


First off, there is no reason to be concerned about the masonic oath. The oath only states that we will not reveal the modes of recognition of Freemasons, that we will not violate female members of a mason's family and that we will help any brother in need. This oath does not interfere with the duty we owe to God, our Country, our neighbor and ourselves, and this is explicitly stated within the oath.

Now, please understand that Christian masons do not lower our God to an equal status with other mason's Gods. Talk of religion and anything having to do with it does not belong in lodge. Christian masons believe our God is the one TRUE God, and we feel that all other masons are worshipping an incorrect deity, but that is none of our business. Let them worship who they want, they will be judged by God not by us.

Now, if you have a problem with praying to your God while others pray to another God, or if you have a problem calling a man who worships another God "brother", then maybe Freemasonry is not for you. Like I stated before, religion is left completely out of the lodge, and nobody makes mention of their own personal beliefs. This is simply not brought up while in lodge. We masons feel that a man's religious convictions are his own business, and in the end he will or will not realize the error of his ways if he has strayed from the true path.

But different religions within Freemasonry is no different than a workplace with employees of different religions. Your workplace does not discriminate, and sectarian religion is not brought up while in the office. If you cannot be in lodge with men of other religions, then how can you be in the office with employees of other relligions?

Does this help?



Thanks for the reply Seba- I did learn something but am still a little concerned ?

Please help me understand.

Seba- First off, there is no reason to be concerned about the masonic oath. The oath only states that we will not reveal the modes of recognition of Freemasons, that we will not violate female members of a mason's family and that we will help any brother in need. This oath does not interfere with the duty we owe to God, our Country, our neighbor and ourselves, and this is explicitly stated within the oath.

Truth- Ok-Noted !

Seba- Now, please understand that Christian masons do not lower our God to an equal status with other mason's Gods. Talk of religion and anything having to do with it does not belong in lodge. Christian masons believe our God is the one TRUE God, and we feel that all other masons are worshipping an incorrect deity, but that is none of our business. Let them worship who they want, they will be judged by God not by us.

Truth- I am a little confused here. Religion does not belong in the lodge yet you will be taught Symbolism ? Can you please explain the difference ?

God tells us that it is our business and we need to witness to our fellow brothers so that they will know the truth.

Are we not supposed to care about our brothers and sisters lives, here on earth and in heaven ?

This goes against scripture ?

Seba- Now, if you have a problem with praying to your God while others pray to another God, or if you have a problem calling a man who worships another God "brother", then maybe Freemasonry is not for you.

Truth- Understandable, but shouldn’t a Christian be concerned, if God forbids us to do this ?

Seba- Like I stated before, religion is left completely out of the lodge, and nobody makes mention of their own personal beliefs.

Truth- Personal Religion is left at the door but Masonic Symbolism is permitted ? Please explain.

Not only just permitted but necessary for moving up in the ranks of your own spiritual journey through life. Please explain.

Doesn’t this seem a little ironic ?

Seba- This is simply not brought up while in lodge. We masons feel that a man's religious convictions are his own business, and in the end he will or will not realize the error of his ways if he has strayed from the true path.

Truth- Again, This is not a Christian value, letting your brother go to hell if you see error in his way.

Seba- But different religions within Freemasonry is no different than a workplace with employees of different religions.

Truth- Disagree, At work we are not supposed to talk about religion ?

We both agreed on this point !

Truth- Yet at the lodge it is being taught to millions of it’s members of different religions to deny or put aside their beliefs and teachings of their religion or God and accept and follow theirs ?

Teaching of Symbolism-Which go’s against the Christian Gods teachings ?

Please explain the irony between this and a cult ?

Back to the religion vs symbolism thing.

Seba- Your workplace does not discriminate, and sectarian religion is not brought up while in the office.

Truth- Agreed !

Seba- If you cannot be in lodge with men of other religions, then how can you be in the office with employees of other religions?

Truth- Big difference- Not a good comparison. Going to work which is a command from God for a man to provide for his family is different that willingly going into a place of man, worshipping or aknowledging other Gods.

Can you see the difference ?

Truth-God is far from stupid. We shouldn’t degrade his intellect. God new when we went to work we would all be around many different people of all backgrounds and religions. Why ? For one He is all knowing and another He allows a Christians to be on Neutral territory or ground to discuss and hopefully witness for Him.

By the way-Love the dancing fruit !




posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by Golfie

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

*snip some previous quotes*

I have a concern here that is really bothering me and I hope that you can help or give me some advice. I am a fellow Christian like yourself, within the lodge and was babtized in the church with water and therefore I believe that I will go to heaven some day when I die.

Question: While attending my church and reading the faith statement that is in accordance to the bibles teachings, I feel that I might have made a mistake when I took the oath into Masonry ?

Here is a part of my Christian churches faith statement:

I chose some of the most basic faith statements found in many different Christian churches across the nation.

We believe in one God who is eternally existent in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are infinite in glory, wisdom, holiness, justice, power and love.

We believe that the 66 books that comprise the Bible are the plenary, verbally inspired Word of God, inerrant and infallible in the original manuscripts, and the guide and final authority in matters of faith and day to day life, interpreted by the Holy Spirit to each individual believer.

We believe salvation is received by faith alone, apart from all good works and merit. Faith which leads to salvation produces repentance in the life of a believer.

We believe that those who by faith alone and through no merit of their own receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior are miraculously born again of the Holy Spirit and become children of God and partakers of His divine nature and eternal life.

We believe that by His Word and power God has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness, including not only salvation from the penalty of sin but instruction in righteousness for present sanctification and victorious living to the glory of God.

We believe the church, the Body of Christ, is composed of all those who have heard the Gospel of grace through faith and have been regenerated by the Spirit of God.

We believe that those who are following Christ do not walk in darkness. Conversely, if a man is walking in darkness he is not following Christ.



Now when I took the oath (I feel ) that I (may have) went against my beliefs, when I had to accept the fact that the Masonic belief has made my God the Christian God an equal with other gods, beings or any another idol ?

I am also a little concerned as a Christian about praying to the One and Only True God under the same roof while others are praying to their gods whom may be against my God ?

*snip some biblical quotes*

Any advice or help in this matter will be greatly appreciated as I feel that I have disappointed my God and may have gone against him. And I feel terrible about it.

Can you please help ?


Thanks again- Brothers in the Lord
Truth




Ok

First as Sebatwerk said...Christian Masons are not "lowering" their God to the level of "other" gods. Just referring to him with a different title. It is really not unlike the word God itself. If a Christian speaking to another Christian refers to God they both know it is the Christian God that they are talking about. If two Muslim people are talking and they refer to God they too know they are speaking of the Muslim God. Now if a Muslim and a Christian are standing side by side speaking with another person (religion unknown) and they refer to God, the Christian will more than likely think that they are meaning the Christian God, the Muslim their God when in all reality the person could be refering to the Islamic God. So you see not unlike the term GAOTU, the word God itself can have different meanings to different people.

After reading your "church's" faith statement, I personally do not see any conflict between it and Masonry. But, you and I are two different people and we can/will interpret things differently.

I would (if asked) explain my interpretation of it and why I feel that way. Seeing that we may not feel the same way. My advice would be if it bothers you that much, demit.

Masonry is not to come between you and your God. Period. And if you feel that this is the case...demit. No harm, no foul, no questions asked.



Golfie- Relax !

Simmer down ! Seems as if though many people on this site are ready to jump up and down and scream ( CHRISTIAN FUNDEMENTALISM !!! ) LOLOLOL- Too much paranoia on these conspiracy sites ! lolol

Let me rephrase that before you go off writing about fundementalists for the next few pages.

1.) All of the mentioned religions - babtists. lutheran, methodists etc...... are all apart of the Christian faith ! Ok are you happy now !

2.) I was actually trying to show that Masonry even accepts different religions under the broad term of Christianity.

So simmer down and put that gun away.

It's a False Alarm !

Truth



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 03:10 AM
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OOPS ! - MEANT SHADOW TIGER !!!!

SORRY !!

TRUTH



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 03:13 AM
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Originally posted by Golfie

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

*snip some previous quotes*

I have a concern here that is really bothering me and I hope that you can help or give me some advice. I am a fellow Christian like yourself, within the lodge and was babtized in the church with water and therefore I believe that I will go to heaven some day when I die.

Question: While attending my church and reading the faith statement that is in accordance to the bibles teachings, I feel that I might have made a mistake when I took the oath into Masonry ?

Here is a part of my Christian churches faith statement:

I chose some of the most basic faith statements found in many different Christian churches across the nation.

We believe in one God who is eternally existent in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are infinite in glory, wisdom, holiness, justice, power and love.

We believe that the 66 books that comprise the Bible are the plenary, verbally inspired Word of God, inerrant and infallible in the original manuscripts, and the guide and final authority in matters of faith and day to day life, interpreted by the Holy Spirit to each individual believer.

We believe salvation is received by faith alone, apart from all good works and merit. Faith which leads to salvation produces repentance in the life of a believer.

We believe that those who by faith alone and through no merit of their own receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior are miraculously born again of the Holy Spirit and become children of God and partakers of His divine nature and eternal life.

We believe that by His Word and power God has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness, including not only salvation from the penalty of sin but instruction in righteousness for present sanctification and victorious living to the glory of God.

We believe the church, the Body of Christ, is composed of all those who have heard the Gospel of grace through faith and have been regenerated by the Spirit of God.

We believe that those who are following Christ do not walk in darkness. Conversely, if a man is walking in darkness he is not following Christ.



Now when I took the oath (I feel ) that I (may have) went against my beliefs, when I had to accept the fact that the Masonic belief has made my God the Christian God an equal with other gods, beings or any another idol ?

I am also a little concerned as a Christian about praying to the One and Only True God under the same roof while others are praying to their gods whom may be against my God ?

*snip some biblical quotes*

Any advice or help in this matter will be greatly appreciated as I feel that I have disappointed my God and may have gone against him. And I feel terrible about it.

Can you please help ?


Thanks again- Brothers in the Lord
Truth




Ok

First as Sebatwerk said...Christian Masons are not "lowering" their God to the level of "other" gods. Just referring to him with a different title. It is really not unlike the word God itself. If a Christian speaking to another Christian refers to God they both know it is the Christian God that they are talking about. If two Muslim people are talking and they refer to God they too know they are speaking of the Muslim God. Now if a Muslim and a Christian are standing side by side speaking with another person (religion unknown) and they refer to God, the Christian will more than likely think that they are meaning the Christian God, the Muslim their God when in all reality the person could be refering to the Islamic God. So you see not unlike the term GAOTU, the word God itself can have different meanings to different people.

After reading your "church's" faith statement, I personally do not see any conflict between it and Masonry. But, you and I are two different people and we can/will interpret things differently.

I would (if asked) explain my interpretation of it and why I feel that way. Seeing that we may not feel the same way. My advice would be if it bothers you that much, demit.

Masonry is not to come between you and your God. Period. And if you feel that this is the case...demit. No harm, no foul, no questions asked.


Hey Golfie !

Sorry about the confusion ?

I would like to hear your interpretation, If you can take the time ?

Thanks,
Truth



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Thanks for the reply Seba- I did learn something but am still a little concerned ?


Shoot.



Truth- I am a little confused here. Religion does not belong in the lodge yet you will be taught Symbolism ? Can you please explain the difference ?


Masonic symbolism has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with the moral lessons that we were taught during our initiation. These lessons were derived from the lessons taught in the Bible, but the degrees (rituals) and symbols are inn no way religious.



God tells us that it is our business and we need to witness to our fellow brothers so that they will know the truth.

Are we not supposed to care about our brothers and sisters lives, here on earth and in heaven ?


A very specific effort is made within the lodge to keep sectarian religion out of it. Each mason goes to the lodge to participate in his own moral and spiritual development, and discussions arising from sectarian religion do nothing to help each man reach his goal of becoming a better person.




Seba- Now, if you have a problem with praying to your God while others pray to another God, or if you have a problem calling a man who worships another God "brother", then maybe Freemasonry is not for you.

Truth- Understandable, but shouldn’t a Christian be concerned, if God forbids us to do this ?


I don't believe God forbids us to do this.




Seba- Like I stated before, religion is left completely out of the lodge, and nobody makes mention of their own personal beliefs.

Truth- Personal Religion is left at the door but Masonic Symbolism is permitted ? Please explain.

Not only just permitted but necessary for moving up in the ranks of your own spiritual journey through life. Please explain.

Doesn’t this seem a little ironic ?


Again, masonic symbolism has NOTHING to do with religion. I expained this above. There is no irony in this because masonic symbolism is Freemasonry's unnique brand of teaching and reminding a mason of the lessons he has been taught in the lodge. These lessons will encourage a mason to follow his own religion and will teach him the same morals and values found in the Bible, but they are not religious in any sense.

Is there a problem if a man chooses religion as well as Freemasonry to learn to be a better man? To a mason, practice of religion belongs at home and at church (and to some at just about every other place), and the practice of Freemasonry belongs in the lodge. When you enter the lodge, masons know to keep their religious beliefs to themselves, out of respect for the work that all masons are doing in the lodge.


Truth- Again, This is not a Christian value, letting your brother go to hell if you see error in his way.


And outside of the lodge you may do anything you feel necessary to help a person you feel has strayed from the path, but this is not to be done in lodge! All masons are in the lodge for the same purpose of becoming a better man through the lessons Freemasonry teaches us. Sectarian religion has no place within its walls. There is nothing in the bible that states this is wrong, and it is NO different than going to work for money... masons go to the lodge to work for personal development.



Truth- Yet at the lodge it is being taught to millions of it’s members of different religions to deny or put aside their beliefs and teachings of their religion or God and accept and follow theirs ?

Teaching of Symbolism-Which go’s against the Christian Gods teachings ?


This is not being taught in a lodge! Where do you get this idea from? Millions of men of different religions are being taught MORAL lessons, not religious lessons. They are not being asked to put aside their religion, each mason is ENCOURAGED to follow his own.

The moral lessons that Freemasonry teaches can be found in the teachings of EVERY popular religion: truth, charity, faith, hope, honor, integrity, justice, relief, etc. How does symbolism which illustrates these charateristics go against the Christian God's teachings?



Please explain the irony between this and a cult ?


Again, Freemasonry is not a cult because you can quit anytime, it does not want you if you do not want it, everyone is equal, it is a volunnteer organization, it makes no promises of salvation, it has no spiritual leaders, it does not sequester members from the public, it does not forbid its members to speak about freemasonry, etc etc. The reasons that freemasonry is not a cult are numerous. They are all detailed here:

www.masonicinfo.com...



Seba- If you cannot be in lodge with men of other religions, then how can you be in the office with employees of other religions?

Truth- Big difference- Not a good comparison. Going to work which is a command from God for a man to provide for his family is different that willingly going into a place of man, worshipping or aknowledging other Gods.

Can you see the difference ?


It is a perfect comparison. You go to your job to work for money, success or maybe even good deeds. A mason goes to lodge to work also-- masons work for their own self-development. Each mason goes to the lodge for the same reason and, since all masons are there for the same noble purpose, there is every reason to keep religion out of it and allow ALL men to pursue the noble work that masons do.



Truth-God is far from stupid. We shouldn’t degrade his intellect. God new when we went to work we would all be around many different people of all backgrounds and religions. Why ? For one He is all knowing and another He allows a Christians to be on Neutral territory or ground to discuss and hopefully witness for Him.


And I'm sure God knows that many men also want to work for their own personal development, and accepts the fact that we will encounter men of all walks of life in our endeavours! Religion is left out of the lodge in order to accomodate all these men who are working towards the noble goal of becoming a more giving, loving, caring person.

There is no contradiction in the fact that many men are attracted to the personal improvement that Freemasonry offers men from all faiths. If Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Jews all want to become more faithful, caring and giving men, and make the world a better pllace along the way, who are we to stop them?



By the way-Love the dancing fruit !


Isn't it great!?!?


[edit on 16-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 05:27 AM
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OK - I'm back. To the thread that refused to die.

TOIT - just one question for you. It's an easy one, so hopefully I'll get a quick reply


Are there any other gods than the Lord?



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 08:32 AM
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Sebatwerk, I must say your last few posts here in this thread have been most impressive and I don't believe it could have been said or explained any better.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by mrfixit
Sebatwerk, I must say your last few posts here in this thread have been most impressive and I don't believe it could have been said or explained any better.


Thank you! Although I'm sure TruthIsOutThere will come up with something to question... although I am VERY HAPPY to be having an actual discussion with him, with an actual exchange of ideas and q&a that we both pay attention to.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by malice_devious
nevermind everything i said. will it make you feel better if i tell you i just made the whole thing up? you ar a complete waste of time, unless your lodge doesnt give certificates showing what level you are. looking silly, how bout this. meet me one day see if you look even sillier when you leave, lying fool.
good insult exchange for you? goodbye,



I wonder what happened to our little insulting friend? I was expecting an answer to my post, but perhaps I shouldn't? I mean after all, it seems as though we made him eat his words, and Momma always said you shouldn't talk with your mouth full.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
I wonder what happened to our little insulting friend? I was expecting an answer to my post, but perhaps I shouldn't?


He's a very hot-tempered individual, who does not know how to have a discussion. I wouldn't expect anything but petty insults from him, if he dares show himself around here again.

Maybe he belittled himself so much that he got mistaken for a bug and squished...?!?



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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Hey Seba- Thanks for quick the concise reply !!!

Shoot. –OK-Bang !!!

Here we go:

Seba- AS a Christian I am still having a problems with the fact that you mention that Symbolism has nothing to do with religion. Symbolism is in fact religion according to the dictionary: Please see below:

Main Entry: re•li•gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re•li•gion•less adjective


When we look at definitions #2 #3 and #4-The Masonic teachings ( Symbolism ) does fall into the definition of Religion or Religious teachings, system of belief, practices, faith etc….

Seba- Masonic symbolism has nothing to do with religion.

Truth- Masonic Symbolism is religious because you are being taught a lesson in beliefs, principles and morals. As a matter of fact the lessons that are being taught in the lodge are from the bible like you said.

But it seems from the Symbolistic messages that I have looked into myself from the sources of the Masonic lodge, the lessons have been twisted and changed so much that the scripture has no continuity with any other versus or chapters nor does it have any validity ? Please Explain.

If you would like I can show you an example ? Let me know if you would like to see this.

Truth- Also-Doesn’t the bible say that if anyone is to add or take away from the scriptures they would die-parish away from God ? Why does Freemasonry do this ? Please explain.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Tuth- If it is true that the Masonic lodge teaches in this fashion it is HERECY !

Seba- It has to do with the moral lessons that we were taught during our initiation.

Truth- A Mason does not only have symbolistic teachings during initiation ? Isn’t it true that these lessons are being taught to members in the Third Degree as well as others ?

Seba- These lessons were derived from the lessons taught in the Bible, but the degrees (rituals) and symbols are inn no way religious.

Truth-Please explain how Symbolism coming from the root teachings from the bible are not religious ?

Seba- A very specific effort is made within the lodge to keep sectarian religion out of it. Each mason goes to the lodge to participate in his own moral and spiritual development, and discussions arising from sectarian religion do nothing to help each man reach his goal of becoming a better person.

Truth-Well Noted ! The last sentence in the above paragraph is very worrisome from a Christian point of view:

Seba- and discussions arising from sectarian religion do nothing to help each man reach his goal of becoming a better person.

Truth- This is Secular Humanism and has no place in a Christianity.

Truth -Do you actually believe that Masonic teachings help a man become a better person ? vs his/her religion ?

Why and How ?

Truth- What is the Goal of becoming a better person ? What does this actually mean “a better person ?”

Seba- Now, if you have a problem with praying to your God while others pray to another God, or if you have a problem calling a man who worships another God "brother", then maybe Freemasonry is not for you.

Truth- Understandable, but shouldn’t a Christian be concerned, if God forbids us to do this ?

Seba- I don't believe God forbids us to do this.

Truth- I don’t understand ? You say that you are a Christian but you don’t believe that God forbids this ? Please explain ?

Seba- Again, masonic symbolism has NOTHING to do with religion.

Truth- I cannot believe this statement. Why ? Your reply below:

Seba- There is no irony in this because masonic symbolism is Freemasonry's unnique brand of teaching and reminding a mason of the lessons he has been taught in the lodge.

Truth- It is ironic because you are defending the teachings of the Lodge which goes against the teachings of the bible ( Christianity) ? Please explain from a Christian point of view.

Seba- These lessons will encourage a mason to follow his own religion and will teach him the same morals and values found in the Bible, but they are not religious in any sense.

Truth- This is not what I have found when I compare the Masonic symbolism compared to the Holy Scriptures.

Truth- As a matter of fact the teachings take away from a mans religion or faith, due to the fact that the lessons have been changed or twisted.

Let me know if you need a sample to discuss ?

Truth-As far as the statement above is concerned you are right, The members are not being taught the truth (religion-bible) rather twisted scriptures which is called Herecy.

Truth -The result of these twisted scriptures and symbolism is actually teaching secular humanism which is NOT a godly principle ? Please explain.

Truth- If need be we can look at any of the Symbolistic teachings of the Masonic Lodge and I can show you the Herecy.

Seba- Is there a problem if a man chooses religion as well as Freemasonry to learn to be a better man?

Truth -Secular Humanism has no place in any (mainstream) religious mans belief to “become a better man ?”

Truth- I guess it would be no problem if the religion had the same theologies as the Masonry lodge had ? But Christianity and Freemasonry cannot go hand and hand. Due to the fact that they go completely against one another.

Truth- Freemasonry goes against what religion teaches us. It’s not about (us) as a Christian. It’s about others. The better man thing. If you need I can expound.

Seba- To a mason, practice of religion belongs at home and at church (and to some at just about every other place), and the practice of Freemasonry belongs in the lodge. When you enter the lodge, masons know to keep their religious beliefs to themselves, out of respect for the work that all masons are doing in the lodge.

Truth-Noted and understand ! Thanks

Seba- And outside of the lodge you may do anything you feel necessary to help a person you feel has strayed from the path, but this is not to be done in lodge!

Truth- Noted Thanks !!!

Seba- All masons are in the lodge for the same purpose of becoming a better man through the lessons Freemasonry teaches us.

Truth- The better man thing ? I am not sure what this actually means “ A Better Man “ unless this is true that this falls under Secular Humanism ?

Sectarian religion has no place within its walls. There is nothing in the bible that states this is wrong, and it is NO different than going to work for money... masons go to the lodge to work for personal development.

Truth-Noted !!

quote: Truth- Yet at the lodge it is being taught to millions of it’s members of different religions to deny or put aside their beliefs and teachings of their religion or God and accept and follow theirs ?

Truth- Let me rephrase the above quote: The Teaching of Symbolism- Go’s against the Christian Gods teachings ? Therefore you are compromising your belief for another.

Seba- This is not being taught in a lodge! Where do you get this idea from?

Truth- From your own teachings ( Symbolism. ) Like I mentioned we might need to look at one of these Stories, Lessons, Teachings, Parables or what ever you would like to call it ? so That I can prove my point.

Let me know and I will bring one to the table.

Seba- Millions of men of different religions are being taught MORAL lessons, not religious lessons. They are not being asked to put aside their religion, each mason is ENCOURAGED to follow his own.

Truth- Please explain in your own words what the difference is between a moral and a religious lesson.

Truth- Don’t Lessons of Morality come from religious teachings despite the affiliation ?

Seba- The moral lessons that Freemasonry teaches can be found in the teachings of EVERY popular religion: truth, charity, faith, hope, honor, integrity, justice, relief, etc.

Truth-Noted.

Seba- How does symbolism which illustrates these charateristics go against the Christian God's teachings?

Truth- Very Easily. The lessons or Symbolism goes against the Christian Gods teachings due to the simple fact that Freemasonry is adding and leaving out the main message of Christ. And Even Worse !

First off- The Lessons teach a “one world view of God.” Complete Contradiction ! To the bibles teachings. The Bible is very clear and specific about this point. Freemasonry lessons go against the teachings of Christ !

Seba- Again, Freemasonry is not a cult because you can quit anytime

Truth- So you are saying, that if you couldn’t quit Freemasonry it would be a cult ?

Truth- Quitting anytime ? Does not dictate any characteristic as being of a cult ?

Defintion: Cult-By Merriam Webster Online.
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Seba- it does not want you if you do not want it, everyone is equal, it is a volunnteer organization, it makes no promises of salvation.

Truth- Seba ! No promise of Salvation ? From your own teachings nonetheless !

Do I need to show you were this is and from what lesson ? Let me know.

Truth- Do you not remember “THE LAMBSKIN APRON AND THE GREAT WHITE THRONE ? ” when you were an apprentice ?

Please explain ?

Seba- it has no spiritual leaders, it does not sequester members from the public, it does not forbid its members to speak about freemasonry, etc etc. The reasons that freemasonry is not a cult are numerous. They are all detailed here:

www.masonicinfo.com...

Truth- The items or (Propaganda) listed on the site above have deflected the real designations of the definition of the word “cult.”

NEED TO SHOW DEFINITIONS THAT ARE RELEVANT TO DISCUSSION- FORGIVE ME FOR POSTING ! THANKS.

Truth- Again- Definition of a cult.
Secular Reference: education.yahoo.com...
1.
a.A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b.The followers of such a religion or sect.
2.A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3.The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4.A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5. a.Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b.The object of such devotion.
6.An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

Truth-1 More definition:

www.spiritwatch.org...

Christian perspective

Definition - From an orthodox Christian perspective, a cult is a group of people who follow one man or the group's spiritual teachings and practices that, when compared with orthodox Christian doctrine always contradict them, as well as exalt the group's own unique religious perspective as the only way to truly serve God. From a purely Biblical perspective, 2 Corinthians 11:4 gives us the clearest and most concise description of how cults may be discerned. False teachings, the apostle Paul warned here, will introduce three major errors to the unsuspecting in the name of Christianity. First they will preach their own determination of who Jesus Christ is, denying his Biblically revealed identity as God the Son and exchanging it with another. They'll point to "another Jesus." Secondly, cult teachers will proclaim a "gospel message" that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They'll preach "another gospel." Thirdly, the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They'll be empowered by "another spirit." This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.In short, a cult will energetically claim to follow the Bible and be the only group to be found anywhere who really are interpreting it correctly (hence the rationale for some countercult workers calling some groups "Bible based"). Ultimately, once examined, a questionable group's doctrines will always deny orthodox Biblical truth in one way, shape or form.

Thanks Seba for your replies. I think that we have opened up too much ground at one time !!!!

We need to start talking specifics on the above issues. I will bring some up to discuss soon.

Thanks again for your attention and sincere answers.

Everytime I see that dancing banana I just have to laugh !


Truth



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 01:46 AM
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TOIT

There are some fundamental errors in your postings which show to me that you have misunderstood freemasonry at a very basic level. Until these more fundamental issues are resolved you and seb will perpetually go round in circles.

I know you are time-limited, so I think this might be useful information for you.



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
There are some fundamental errors in your postings which show to me that you have misunderstood freemasonry at a very basic level. Until these more fundamental issues are resolved you and seb will perpetually go round in circles.


Truth, trinityman is absolutely right. First off, your post is WAAAAY too long and I do not have the time nor the desire to go through every issue in there, so I will only address the first parts of your post which, like trinityman said, show you have completely misunderstood the very fundamentals of Freemasonry, despite the clear and concise explanations I gave you.



Main Entry: re•li•gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re•li•gion•less adjective

When we look at definitions #2 #3 and #4-The Masonic teachings ( Symbolism ) does fall into the definition of Religion or Religious teachings, system of belief, practices, faith etc….


WHAT!?!?! NOTHING in that definition demonstrates that symbolism is religion, or has anything to do with religion! Besides the flawed error in your argument you made by defining religion and not symbolism, when we look at the definition of symbolism:



sym·bol·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smb-lzm)
n.
The practice of representing things by means of symbols or of attributing symbolic meanings or significance to objects, events, or relationships.
A system of symbols or representations.
A symbolic meaning or representation.


there is nothing that tells us symbolism is religious in nature. Why you would choose to take this direction in your argument is baffling because of the very obvious flaws in any possible argument. Symbolism has nothing to do with religion, unless the symbols are themselves religious.



Seba- Masonic symbolism has nothing to do with religion.

Truth- Masonic Symbolism is religious because you are being taught a lesson in beliefs, principles and morals. As a matter of fact the lessons that are being taught in the lodge are from the bible like you said.


Masonic teachings are NOT religious because they do not teach a plan for salvation, do not define sin an salvation, do not teach theology and do not describe or define a deity! Additional information regarding this can be found here:

www.masonicinfo.com...



Truth-Please explain how Symbolism coming from the root teachings from the bible are not religious ?


Because they are moral in nature. If the Bible tells us that the sky is blue, and science tells us the same thing, does this mean that this is a religious lesson? Absolutely not!

In the same way, Freemasonry's moral lessons are OBVIOUS lessons, derived from the Bible but not religious in nature! They are not religious for the reasons I explained above. Until you understand that, because of those reasons, masonic teaching are not religious, I do not believe we can progress any further in this conversation.

And please, next time make your replies shorter and stick to a few general points.


[edit on 17-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

*snip previous quotes*

Hey Golfie !

Sorry about the confusion ?

I would like to hear your interpretation, If you can take the time ?

Thanks,
Truth


I have presented my interpretation before.

I don't believe I'm lowering my God to the level of other gods. When I hear GAOTU I automatically think of the Christian God, because that's the only God I know personally. Admittedly I know *of* other gods...but I've never "walked or talked" with or worshipped them. Even our own Lord and Saviour recognized that there are "other" gods, just don't put any of them before him. Thou shalt not have any other gods before me....or something along those lines.

I have never felt that my obligations to the Fraternity have interfered with my duty to God, family, country or anything else for that matter...... Others may not feel that way...and they are the ones that have make sure they are comfortable....if not...they will always be suspicious and looking for things that aren't there.....therefore if they cannot be comfortable...they should demit.

No Mason should ever feel that the Fraternity is coming between them and their personal God. Period.



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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Truth you really need to get a handle on the "quote" function on this board. It would really help the coherency of your posts, and allow what you say to be more easily distinguished from what others are saying.

Just a suggestion. Check this out: www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
TOIT

There are some fundamental errors in your postings which show to me that you have misunderstood freemasonry at a very basic level. Until these more fundamental issues are resolved you and seb will perpetually go round in circles.

I know you are time-limited, so I think this might be useful information for you.


Hey Trinity,

Thanks for the note !

Well Noted: I don't believe that there is any misunderstanding here. The more time I take to research Masonry the more clear it becomes that Masonry is a cult and teaches herecy against the teachings of Christ. It goes completely against the teachings of the bible. If you are not a Christian I guess it wouldn't matter ? But if you are truly a christian there is much to be concerned about.

Please realize that we are discussing the conflicts of Christiany and Masonry.

If a mason doesn't give a rip that the lessons, teachings, symbolism etc.... goes against Gods teachings that is his/her poragative. It doesn't make him right because he choses to ignore the facts of scripture ?

Ignorance is no excuse to God. He is very clear on this point.

Truth



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Well Noted: I don't believe that there is any misunderstanding here. The more time I take to research Masonry the more clear it becomes that Masonry is a cult and teaches herecy against the teachings of Christ. It goes completely against the teachings of the bible.


Well, believe what you like. But if this is what you want to think, then our discussion is over, and it is obvious that you never had any intention of DISCUSSING these issues with me, but rather just make your beliefs known. You had no interest in learning anything about Freemasonry from an actual mason. You would rather believe what you read on Jack Chick's website, and the like, instead of hearing it straight from the horse's mouth. This is nothing more than a demonstration of ignorance. You are simply telling us "I want to be ignorant."



If a mason doesn't give a rip that the lessons, teachings, symbolism etc.... goes against Gods teachings that is his/her poragative. It doesn't make him right because he choses to ignore the facts of scripture ?


Scripture contains NO facts whatsoever. Facts can be supported by evidence, scripture can only be supported by faith. And, after everything has been said and done, you still have completely failed to show that Freemasonry's teachings are incompatible with Christianity.

Just answer one thing:
How can Freemasonry's teaching be incompatible with Christianity if they descend straight from the Bible???


[edit on 17-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 08:53 PM
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OK Seba-

Calm Down-Don't get emotional for no reason ? I have not made any conclusions based on fairy tales. It is based on your own materials !

As a matter of fact I am willing to discuss the specifics of the contradictions of your teachings. I said that I was willing to post but didn't want to till I heard back from you. Another words it's out of respect.
I wanted to give you a fair shake and to have you pick out the lesson of discussion instead of me. Sound Fair ?

My whole post was showing you that Masonry contradicts the Christian Teachings and Faith. I think I did very well with my research. So well in fact that you couldn't or wouldn't answer ? I think I checked mated you !

Now who is backing off ?
Truth



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
My whole post was showing you that Masonry contradicts the Christian Teachings and Faith. I think I did very well with my research. So well in fact that you couldn't or wouldn't answer ? I think I checked mated you !

Now who is backing off ?


What the hell are you talking about!?!? You made a post which was EXTREMELY long and EXTREMELY convoluted and jumped to and from 10 different topics. I addressed the first two issues of your post, and told you I would not reply to the rest because I did not have the time nor the interest to have a conversation about 10 different topics. Therefore, please address the issue we are discussing now and you will get a reply for everything you post. Just keep your post clear and concise.

But do not attempt to toot your own horn and think you "check-mated" me. You did no such thing, and you made no valid point either! I have replied to and contradicted every claim you made.

You are VERY confused about Freemasonry, and you have been unable to show that Freemasonry's lessons are incompatible with Freemasonry. If I am mistaken, then please re-post this information.



posted on Jun, 18 2005 @ 06:11 AM
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I wondered how long Truth would appear to be interested in actually learning what Freemasonry was all about before he failed to resist the temptation to toot his own horn. He claims to be a Biblical Scholar but I doubt Truth could name all the Seven Deadly Sins without looking it .....

It's a teetotal waste of time and energy.

That's my 2 pennies .....




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