"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Apples and Oranges still ! Aknowledging someones humerous view of something does not seperate me from God.

But believing and praying to another pagan god does !

OK, let's seperate the produce then. Who do you mean by saying "believing and praying to another pagan god"?

I still don't understand why some are think'n that 'cause I'm a Mason, I'm pray'n to a pagan God? 'N who is this Masonic God I keep hear'n about? I would think, that I would have heard of him before.

Maybe the problem lies in our inability ta express ta ya that "Great Architects of the Universe" isn't a name like "Jesus", "Allah", or "Buda". It's a... well a... I guess I’d call it an adjective? Like "Creator of mankind", "keep’r of the stars", "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name." ( I like that one!) 'Cause we are "speculative" (stone)masons we refer a lot ta building edifices, ‘n the greatest engineer (yet I’m probably the first ta call him an engineer).

I love seeing the occasional roving tours of the Arizona branding iron degree.

Thanks Seba, Cowboy, Axe, Maj12, Interpid, Nygden for your understanding in this delicate matter. I hope that I didn't leave anyone out ? My apologies if I did.

This is a very emotional and delicate topic for both and I understand why. I apologise if my own flesh got in the way of the message at hand.

I know that it's very frustrating to all when trying to prove a point and the others cannot see it. For both sides involved !

I hope that we can all forget about the past and move on whether we are on this thread or others. If not I totally understand and that's ok too.

Take Care Guys !
Truth

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
I know that it's very frustrating to all when trying to prove a point and the others cannot see it. For both sides involved !

No problem here, I'm not a Mason. So would you mind answering this?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Apples and Oranges still ! Aknowledging someones humerous view of something does not seperate me from God.

But believing and praying to another pagan god does !

OK, let's seperate the produce then. Who do you mean by saying "believing and praying to another pagan god"?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

Apples and Oranges still ! Aknowledging someones humerous view of something does not seperate me from God.

But believing and praying to another pagan god does !

I don't believe in or pray to any pagan gods.

Oh and by the way, I think your other quote in your siggy is from a Mason! Correct me if I'm wrong fellas, but wasn't Thomas J. a Mason?

Talk about irony. A Mason and an atheist working together in a "TRUE Christian's" signature... Who'd have thunk it?

*edit*

Oops, after looking into it, I think I may have been mistaken about Thomas Jefferson, though I do believe it is a common misconception.

[edit on 6/14/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
I know that it's very frustrating to all when trying to prove a point and the others cannot see it. For both sides involved !

No problem here, I'm not a Mason. So would you mind answering this?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Apples and Oranges still ! Aknowledging someones humerous view of something does not seperate me from God.

But believing and praying to another pagan god does !

OK, let's seperate the produce then. Who do you mean by saying "believing and praying to another pagan god"?

Guess not. That tells me a LOT.

Bad debate skills.

Either that or no foot to stand on.

Jefferson wasn't a Mason

[edit on 14-6-2005 by Majestic12]

[edit on 14-6-2005 by Majestic12]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Talk about irony. A Mason and an atheist working together in a "TRUE Christian's" signature... Who'd have thunk it?

*edit*

Oops, after looking into it, I think I may have been mistaken about Thomas Jefferson, though I do believe it is a common misconception.

Great recovery there Axe, Jefferson was most likely not a Mason, though I'm sure the Brethren would have welcomed him with open arms. He was however, a Deist, and surely would have found a fundamental flaw in certain Truth's.

Monticello Monkeys, not just for dining in the presence of genius anymore...

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

Apples and Oranges still ! Aknowledging someones humerous view of something does not seperate me from God.

But believing and praying to another pagan god does !

I would like to bring up the definintion of Pagan

Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

So technically you could be a Christian and a Pagan.Like lets say that you barely show that you are relgious ( or from being a civilan country dweller) by the way you act or the way you speak, but you still call yourself a Christian. Then wouldn't you be a Pagan Christian?So then your God would be the "Pagan's" God. I dunno I thought that was funny when I heard it cause most of the time they are complete opposite but with loops in language I suppose you could be both
SOURCE

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
I know that it's very frustrating to all when trying to prove a point and the others cannot see it. For both sides involved !

No problem here, I'm not a Mason. So would you mind answering this?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Apples and Oranges still ! Aknowledging someones humerous view of something does not seperate me from God.

But believing and praying to another pagan god does !

OK, let's seperate the produce then. Who do you mean by saying "believing and praying to another pagan god"?

Guess not. That tells me a LOT.

Bad debate skills.

Either that or no foot to stand on.

Oy ! Back to the stone throwing already ? That wasn't very nice or respectful on your part !

I am sorry that I cannot babysit this thread and reply at your becken call !

I happen to have a life with responsibilities !

If you cannot accept this I understand- Just let me know

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Oy ! Back to the stone throwing already ? That wasn't very nice or respectful on your part !

I am sorry that I cannot babysit this thread and reply at your becken call !

I happen to have a life with responsibilities !

If you cannot accept this I understand- Just let me know

What stones? And no disrepect, except, you replied but didn't answer the question, AGAIN

Give me something to understand. So far, zip.

Just letting you know.

Gah I was flipping through The Freemasons by Jasper Ridley and I had some pages marked where it made reference to Thomas Jeffererson. Turns out he wasn't a Mason. Misread everything.

[edit on 14-6-2005 by Majestic12]

I apologize for the delay !

I have more than a hanful of things going on at the office right now and I want to be respectful and use sources for backing before i just post a view or opinion on my own.

Here we go:

Just so we are on the same page can we please look at some definitions of paganism ?

Paganism as described by Websters:

www.m-w.com...

Main Entry: pa•gan
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3 : NEO-PAGAN
- pagan adjective
- pa•gan•ish /-g&-nish/ adjective



Paganism in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

www.newadvent.org... - Please read in its entirety.
Paganism, in the broadest sense includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God, and, in a narrower sense, all except Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism. The term is also used as the equivalent of Polytheism.

Polytheism in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

www.newadvent.org...
The belief in, and consequent worship of, many gods. See the various articles on national religions such as the Assyrian, Babylonian, Hindu, and the ancient religions of Egypt, Greece, and Rome; see also ANIMISM, FETISHISM, TOTEMISM, GOD, MONOTHEISM, PANTHEISM, etc.
I know I will probably get nailed for quoting but that’s fine. This is too important to overlook. I want to make sure that we agree on the definition of Pagan first. I know that some think that pagan worship only has to do with satanic rituals or praying to an elephant or cow. This is not the case as we can see.

Can we agree on the definition of paganism ?

A bare bones answer to a bare bones question, please.

Are you accusing the Masons of worshiping a pagan god?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Polytheism in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

www.newadvent.org...
The belief in, and consequent worship of, many gods.

I want to make sure that we agree on the definition of Pagan first. I know that some think that pagan worship only has to do with satanic rituals or praying to an elephant or cow. This is not the case as we can see.

Can we agree on the definition of paganism ?

I think that one is good , my post though was sorta a joke but whatever helps the discussion. Because some of the other definition of paganism is basically the same thing as anyone who doesn't believe in Christ. I think that many gods as the definition is really polytheistic....but for the sake of this arguement Paganism should be described as the definition above.

Wow-Direct as I am. I am not accusing anyone of anything ? Because I know that all are individuals and probably have a different view of worship, religion, God etc.......

So in no way would I say or accuse all masons of doing anything or the same thing ?

I do realize that in Masonry we have christians, lutherans, methodists, babtsists, hindu's, buddists, atheists, wiccans, mormons and many others etc...............

Please understand -I think that this is Great that so many different people are coming together for the good of ourselves and others and the community. That's all very wonderful and I can appreciate this !

But that still doesn't seperate the fact that the Christian God-Jesus Christ does not want and actually forbids prayer or worship to any other god but Himself.

Whether it's right or wrong or we want to believe or not is completley besides the point.

If you are a not a christian this doesn't apply obviously. But if you are there just might be a conflict ?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
I do realize that in Masonry we have christians, lutherans, methodists, babtsists, hindu's, buddists, atheists, wiccans, mormons and many others etc...............

Please understand -I think that this is Great that so many different people are coming together for the good of ourselves and others and the community. That's all very wonderful and I can appreciate this !

But you stated fifty times that Christian Masons do NOT worship a Christian God. Are you now saying that this is not the case, and that you were mistaken by saying so?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
I do realize that in Masonry we have christians, lutherans, methodists, babtsists, hindu's, buddists, atheists, wiccans, mormons and many others etc...............

Emphasis mine.

Please try to absorb some of what has been posted for your benefit... Over, and over, and over again...

There are no avowed Atheists in Freemasonry, the inability to proclaim a belief in a supreme being is enough to be denied membership. Why you continue to post tripe that clearly conflicts with well documented, and painstakingly supported facts on the sole basis of your (twisted) perception of reality, boggles the mind. I can only surmise that your purpose of being here is to incite, not to learn, or even participate in the exchange of ideas (even if that discussion gets a little heated at times). Please try to include a modicum of decorum and veracity in your posts, it reflects poorly on yourself, and ATS as a whole otherwise.

On another note, it’s established convention to capitalize the names of religions, i.e. Hindu, Buddhist, Judaism, Mormon, heck even Christian. It demonstrates a respect and lends credibility to your (anyone’s) position.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

If you are a not a christian this doesn't apply obviously. But if you are there just might be a conflict ?

How many times must it be explained to you that a Christian Mason worships and prays to the CHRISTIAN GOD?!?!

Thgere is NO conflict, because each Mason prays to his own god, regardless of what the other brethren believe or who they are referring to when the use the term Great Architect of the Universe.

Oh and BTW, by your definition, NO Mason can be considered pagan, as monotheism is a prerequisite of initiation. You must believe in a Supreme Being; doesn't matter which one, doesn't matter how you know Him/Her/It. That is up to the individual. What must be established is that you believe in a Creator, and you believe that your soul is eternal. For Christians, it's God. For Muslims, it's Allah. This is not a hard concept to grasp, yet you seem to have a very hard time getting hold of it.

For the last time: there is NO "Masonic god". There is no amalgamation of different gods. Each man worships his own god, and that god alone. Get it?

[edit on 6/14/05 by The Axeman]