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"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

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posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 09:01 PM
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Hey Trinity,

I would still like to discuss but am getting tired of all of this. I am sure that you are too.

Would you like to still discuss the differnces in the Gods ?

Let me know,

Thanks,
Truth




posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 11:39 PM
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My god your reputation as a brick wall is growing!

This has just gone from hilarious to absolutley ridiculous.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by Majestic12
My god your reputation as a brick wall is growing!

This has just gone from hilarious to absolutley ridiculous.


He keeps saying he wants an open discussion, but stops it dead in its tracks as soon as someone starts posting information that contradicts or negates his claims! He is being such a hypocrite that the situation has, like you said, gone from hilarious to absolutley ridiculous.

[edit on 8-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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I am starting to wonder if he is posting blatant ignorance on purpose. I have never seen someone so persistant with such poppycock.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 12:21 AM
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Heheh. Poppycock. I love that word.


So yeah, TIOT has no intention of discussing anything, otherwise he would acknowledge the posts made by the fellas and myself and we could have a discussion. All he can do is try to redirect the thread (which was derailed early on; I meant for it to be a joke...
) and avoid the issues which he has been called on and has no way to refute.

P.S. My hat is off to you, Trinityman, as usual.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 12:36 AM
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Indeed, Trinityman knows how to lay down the law with his words



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
So yeah, TIOT has no intention of discussing anything, otherwise he would acknowledge the posts made by the fellas and myself and we could have a discussion. All he can do is try to redirect the thread (which was derailed early on; I meant for it to be a joke...
) and avoid the issues which he has been called on and has no way to refute.


Like I said before: the REALLY comical part of all this is that he will actually blame US for the impasse in the discussion!



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 02:20 AM
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Do you guys live on this thread or something ? lol


Is this a better explanation of the masonic God ?

What Freemasonry actually requires is faith in the existence of "A Supreme Being." Freemasonry is willing to accept faith in Vishnu - a Hindu god, Buddha, or any other pagan god, as a valid expression of "A Supreme Being." Freemasonry teaches that all men, of all religions worship the same God, knowing Him by many different names.

The truth is quite different. The Scriptures clearly reveal that there is only one God and also reveal that the gods of pagan nations are idols. (Isaiah 45:5, Psalms 96:5) The objects of idol worship are demons, rather than God, according to Scripture. (1 Corinthians 10:19-21). When Freemasonry accepts the Christian, Jew, Buddhist and Hindu as having met the requirement of faith in the existence of "A Supreme Being," it holds pagan gods as equal in nature to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Bible. The nature of Masonic worship is documented in Grand Lodge documents:

Lets hear the replies !

Sebs First !!!!


Truth



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 02:36 AM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Freemasonry teaches that all men, of all religions worship the same God, knowing Him by many different names.


While everything else you said was correct, this above statement is wrong. Freemasonry teaches no such thing. Freemasonry teaches nothing pertaining to religion or a God, as a matter of fact. It only accepts and confirms whatever the individual mason's beliefs are.



The truth is quite different. The Scriptures clearly reveal that there is only one God and also reveal that the gods of pagan nations are idols.


This is YOUR truth. This is not the truth for billions of other people in this world, including many many Freemasons. In other words, it is your BELIEF. Since Freemasonry accepts men of all faiths, you will not find prayer, lessons, etc towards any one specific God! Freemasonry's lessons and prayers are designed to accomodate all beliefs. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

There is no masonic God! The GAOTU is only whatever the individual mason's God actually is. For me, the GAOTU is God Almighty. For a muslim mason, the GAOTU would be Allah. Plain and simple.



Sebs First !!!!


Damn right I am.

I think you need to finally admit that your ONLY problem with Freemasonry is that it accepts men of all faiths and all their beliefs as being valid! To an intolerant fundamentalist such as yourself, this presents a problem because you are hellbent on making sure everybody believes the same things you believe. Your problem with Freemasonry is nothing more than its tolerance of all faiths.



[edit on 9-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:47 AM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

Is this a better explanation of the masonic God ?


There is NO MASONIC GOD! Get that through your thick skull already.



What Freemasonry actually requires is faith in the existence of "A Supreme Being." Freemasonry is willing to accept faith in Vishnu - a Hindu god, Buddha, or any other pagan god, as a valid expression of "A Supreme Being." Freemasonry teaches that all men, of all religions worship the same God, knowing Him by many different names.


While this is my belief (that we all worship the same diety in our own way), I am fairly certain that Freemasonry teaches nothing about the nature of God.


The truth is quite different. The Scriptures clearly reveal that there is only one God and also reveal that the gods of pagan nations are idols. (Isaiah 45:5, Psalms 96:5) The objects of idol worship are demons, rather than God, according to Scripture. (1 Corinthians 10:19-21). When Freemasonry accepts the Christian, Jew, Buddhist and Hindu as having met the requirement of faith in the existence of "A Supreme Being," it holds pagan gods as equal in nature to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Bible.


Inquisition, anyone?! Man, you probably would have been the guy lighting the kindling under "witches'" feet, or the guy pulling people's guts out unless they confessed that they were heretics and "converted" to your twisted view of what Christianity is. I truly pity people like you.



The nature of Masonic worship is documented in Grand Lodge documents:


Since most Grand Lodge documents are public (and indeed would have to be for you to know about them and be able to make the statement above) I would love for you to show me where and how this is stated.

What's that? You can't? Imagine that...


[edit on 6/9/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:08 AM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Do you guys live on this thread or something ? lol


Is this a better explanation of the masonic God ?

What Freemasonry actually requires is faith in the existence of "A Supreme Being." Freemasonry is willing to accept faith in Vishnu - a Hindu god, Buddha, or any other pagan god, as a valid expression of "A Supreme Being." Freemasonry teaches that all men, of all religions worship the same God, knowing Him by many different names.

You're starting to get there, TOIT. Slowly, oh so slowly, but I think you may be on to something. But you've made a key error which will color your subsequent arguement if we're not careful to avoid it now.

Freemasony does not teach that all religions worship the same god. Freemasonry makes no judgement whatsoever on the matter. Some freemasons may be of the opinion that the Abrahamic religions do worship the same god, others may not. It doesn't matter. Why? Because the relationship is always between the individual mason (in this case, me) and God. The ritual speaks to me . I learn things about myself , not anybody else.


The truth is quite different. The Scriptures clearly reveal that there is only one God and also reveal that the gods of pagan nations are idols. (Isaiah 45:5, Psalms 96:5) The objects of idol worship are demons, rather than God, according to Scripture. (1 Corinthians 10:19-21).

No, the truth is the same.


When Freemasonry accepts the Christian, Jew, Buddhist and Hindu as having met the requirement of faith in the existence of "A Supreme Being," it holds pagan gods as equal in nature to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Bible.

It is clearly, unequivocably stated on Grand Lodge websites around the world that freemasonry has no opinion. You have made a logical leap to assume that without any real understanding of why freemasonry has chosen to limit membership to those who have a faith of their own, rather than the faithless.


The nature of Masonic worship is documented in Grand Lodge documents:

As there is no such thing as masonic worship I'll be interested to see your evidence for this.

Before we discuss this further I strongly recommend you read the following from the website of the United Grand Lodge of England. Although all Grand Lodges are independent entities, UGLE is a typical example of a regular grand lodge and it is widely respected throughout the masonic community.


Freemasonry and Religion

Introduction

The following information is intended to deal with a topic mentioned in the leaflet 'What is Freemasonry'.

It explains the United Grand Lodge of England's view of the relationship between Freemasonry and religion.

Basic Statement

Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.

Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.

The Supreme Being

The names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer (to God as each sees Him) without the terms of the prayer causing dissention among them.

There is no separate Masonic God; a Freemason's God remains the God of the religion he professes.

Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is therefore no composite Masonic God.

Volume of the Sacred Law

The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting.

The Obligation of Freemasonry

The Obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on or involve the Volume of the Sacred Law, or the book held sacred by those concerned. They are undertakings to help keep secret a Freemason's means of recognition, and to follow the principles of Freemasonry.

The physical penalties, which are purely symbolic, do not form part of an Obligation. The commitment to follow the principles of Freemasonry is, however, deep.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion

Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion.

a) it has no theological doctrine, and by forbidding religious discussion at its meetings will not allow a Masonic theological doctrine to develop.

b) It offers no sacraments.

c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition and not with salvation.

Freemasonry Supports Religion

Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion.


How an organisation describes itself and advertises itself to the wider world is fundamental in understanding the nature of that organisation. In order to survive organisations require members. If members join under false pretences they will leave and the organisation will die. It is therefore imperative that an organisation describes itself accurately so there is no misunderstanding further down the line.

The statement as posted leaves no doubt, as well as debunking the notion that there is a separate masonic god, that it is not practically possible for an alternative and opposite philosophy (whether that be illuminati, NWO or satanism) to be introduced to any freemason after he has been in the organisation for a while.

I can assure you there is no mass departure from freemasonry, except for those who leave because their time on earth is ended. They aspire to ascend to the Great Architect Of The Universe, and some of them may be surprised to discover that GAOTU is not what they thought. But that will be a problem for many people, not just freemasons.

God bless



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:18 AM
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Sebatwerk:


Calling someone an intolerant fundamentalist is like stabbing a christian in the back. You just made an argument against not only christians, but every other major religion in the world that worships their own god. I am a christian and according to the bible, exdous 20:3, "you shall have no other gods before me", there is only ONE god. Just goes to show how warpped a mind freemasonry can give you in relation to christianity. I.E. freemasonry and it's viewpoint and requirments(one in perticular) is anti-christian, therefore it must be evil. I know a few masons that are quite good christians that would never repeat the nonsense you just uttered. A true christian would and should stand up for their faith, which for some reason I seriously doubt any masons on this board will do. "I am the way the truth and the life", John 14:6. Jesus Christ. In your view, Jesus Christ is an intollerant fundelmentalist, which in truth, he is what he just said.
Intollerant fundalmentalist does not equal the way the truth and the life.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by notmindcontrolled


Sebatwerk:


Calling someone an intolerant fundamentalist is like stabbing a christian in the back. You just made an argument against not only christians, but every other major religion in the world that worships their own god.


I just don't get you guys... Are you seriously so dense that you can't comprehend the idea of religious tolerance? Come on!


I am a christian and according to the bible, exdous 20:3, "you shall have no other gods before me", there is only ONE god.


Well that's fine for you. No one is saying that you are wrong; you believe what you believe, no one is challenging that. You have a right to believe what you lke.


Just goes to show how warpped a mind freemasonry can give you in relation to christianity. I.E. freemasonry and it's viewpoint and requirments(one in perticular) is anti-christian, therefore it must be evil.


WHAT??? I fail to see how anything about Freemasonry is "anti-Christian". Unless, of course, you consider the idea that it is OK for others to have their own beliefs as "anti-Christian".


I know a few masons that are quite good christians that would never repeat the nonsense you just uttered.


So these Masons you know, from what you have said, cannot be "good Christians" because they are freemasons, and Freemasonry is "anti-Christian and therefore evil." Make up your mind...



A true christian would and should stand up for their faith, which for some reason I seriously doubt any masons on this board will do.


You have alot of nerve, dude... There is a huge difference between standing up for your faith and chastising others for being of a different one than you. What you are saying is that anyone who is not a Christian is automatically and inherently evil. Puh-lease. Get over yourself. Have you ever objectively looked at the similarities and nuances of the world's major religions?


"I am the way the truth and the life", John 14:6. Jesus Christ. In your view, Jesus Christ is an intollerant fundelmentalist, which in truth, he is what he just said. Intollerant fundalmentalist does not equal the way the truth and the life.


Actually, from what I have studied, Jesus was quite tolerant, and an all around good guy.
He taught that the Kingdom of God is in us, and that, my friend, means all of us; not just people who fit into your narrow-minded perception of what Christianity is.

A Christian is a follower of Jesus. Period.

A fundamentalist is someone who takes every word of the Bible at face value, literally, who doesn't stop to think if there is a lesson beneath the lesson, get it?


You have voted Trinityman for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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There is only one bible quotation relevant to this discussion. I promise I won't post any more after this.


Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


This passage sums up freemasonry better than any other. Freemasonry insists that we pursue our faith as a condition of membership, for Christians that means following the Lord. It insists we do this as it is a supporter of a mans own chosen belief.

To love thy neighbor as thyself is the essence of fraternal freemasonry. Who is my neighbour? Anyone who asks for my help. Mason or not. For when you understand that for the Christian freemason the lessons of masonry are the lessons of Jesus you will realise the hollow arguments of fundies against freemasonry are just 'doing the work of the devil'.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 12:37 PM
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* sorry double post *

[edit on 9-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by notmindcontrolled
Calling someone an intolerant fundamentalist is like stabbing a christian in the back.


No, somebody who does not have tolerance for other religions is a fundamentalist.



You just made an argument against not only christians, but every other major religion in the world that worships their own god. I am a christian and according to the bible, exdous 20:3, "you shall have no other gods before me", there is only ONE god.


But the Bible also states that you should love thy neighbor, does it not?



Just goes to show how warppe d a mind freemasonry can give you in relation to christianity.


Oh Good God!!! Are you serious!?!?! Freemasonry teaches us to be tolerant of all people and their faiths! And you think this is wrong!?!? Just goes to show you how warped a mind fundamentalist Christianity can give you!!!

:bnghd:



I.E. freemasonry and it's viewpoint and requirments(one in perticular) is anti-christian, therefore it must be evil.


Apprently you don't know much about Freemasonry. I think that, to you, anything that is not Christian must be evil. Am I correct? :shk:



I know a few masons that are quite good christians that would never repeat the nonsense you just uttered.


No mason would ever be intolerant of other religions. If they are, they are not a true Freemason in the sense of the word.



A true christian would and should stand up for their faith, which for some reason I seriously doubt any masons on this board will do.


Youre right, because Freemasons will always be tolerant of other cultures and religions, regardless of what they are. Standing up for your faith, and tolerance for your fellow man are two VERY different things. You don't seem to be able to accept this.

[edit on 9-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:48 PM
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I think the problem is that TIOT thinks that because Freemasonry accepts *any* Supreme Being to meet the membership requirements, that it means that each individual Freemason sees all Supreme Beings on an even keel. Which is not the case. Each individual Mason has their own Supreme Being, but respects that others might have different views.

Remember (as has been said before) Freemasonry requires the belief in A Supreme Being. That means that an individual Mason only believes in ONE Supreme Being. Not five and this is the one I like the best....One. They do however respect the fact that one Mason's God may not be the same as anothers...

Now another misconception that I think is taking place (besides TIOT getting some info from a couple of debunked sites) is that when we as Masons use the term GAOTU that we're referring to one God, which is not the case at all. We are referring to each individual Mason's God.

So in simple terms GAOTU = < insert your own personal God here>

Edit: darn html....

[edit on 9-6-2005 by Golfie]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:38 PM
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Exactly my point !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me break it down for all of you in the most simplist of terms !

The God of Freemasonry INCOMPESSES ALL GODS. You said it. The Freemasonry Church aknowlegdes this. As a matter of fact ALL members must take the oath unto this god ! So both you and I know it !

Have you read about the other Gods in the bible just like this that God destroyed before ?

This is Blasphemy unto the Christian God-The one and only True God ! You are worshipping an Idol. A pagan god ! A False god ! A made up god ! A god of Unity that comes directly from the occult.- Which if you studied up on your oraganization you would realize this.

You might even understand that Freemasonry is a church and has a faith statement and even a statment about salvation ! But unless you research yourselves and stop listening to the ELDERS you will never know !

So who is the hypocrite NOW ?????? -You scoff, laugh, demean, slander and on and on you go-

But you will NEVER Look into either side in it's entirety whether it be Masonry or Christianity. You have no opinion. You have nothing to add to this discussion unless you have researched either ? And it shows you don't know very much about either ? lol

I would at least have some respect for you, if you had something to say with any relevance. But you don't. It's not your fault. Your just ignorant of the facts.

Shiiiiissssshhhhh !!! It sounds like Jim Jones all over again but worse. Masonry is actually dangerous to all humanity and Jim Jones was dangerous for a few. But a deceived blinded few, because they would'nt research on there own. They were deceived.

Sounds just like the children of Isreal ! I forgot. Do I need to explain this parable too ?

Is this too difficult to understand ?

If you are a christian that means that you read the bible therefore you should know this ! It's that simple. It's not complex at all as you are making it. You just want to deflect and believe what YOU want and this is called ignorance.

If you don't get it O-Well ! You are blinded more than I thought. If you would just open up the mind you have and READ for once you would aknowledge the Truth.

Not my truth. Not the Christian Gods Truth.

But to aknowledge the truth about Freemasonry. Why will you not research ? Because it feels comfortable. Another lazy american. Like lambs to the slaughter ! O-hmmmmm

If I cannot show you ? Because of your own pride ? and there are millions that GO AGAINST FREEMASONRY that can't show you ? You even refuse to listen to X-Masons.

So what's the point of discussion ?

Sebs- Get over it ! You don't have to believe in my GOD -the ONE TRUE GOD- AND ITS OK ! You can believe in any other god or as many number of gods that you chose. And it sounds like you already have made that decision ! IT'S OK REALLY- GET SOME SLEEP !

Pro 16:14 The WRATH OF A KING [is as] messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH OF GOD abideth on him.

God destroyed the earth ONCE for the same exact rebellion and HE Promised to do it again one day !

Where will you be ?

Rom 1:18 For the WRATH OF GOD is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH OF GOD upon the children of disobedience.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before GOD to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his WRATH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The TRUTH shall set you free !!

Truth




posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Jesus(pun intended), I've had enough of this. Truth, you are coming across as a die hard Christian, no problem there but the thing is that the Masons, from what I've read, are NOT a religion. Not as if anyone that doesn't believe in Christ is trying to infiltrate your faith.

Next, do you not buy products that are produced by members of another religion? Food product come to mind. I'm betting that a lot of the chicken you eat are killed in the Hallal manne(I know)r. Does that mean that your chicken is not worthy of your table?

From what I've read here, religion is not discussed "in Lodge", so what's the problem? The only conection between them is that they believe in SOMETHING greater than themselves.

Is that so hard to grasp?




posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Exactly my point !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me break it down for all of you in the most simplist of terms !

The God of Freemasonry INCOMPESSES ALL GODS. You said it. The Freemasonry Church aknowlegdes this. As a matter of fact ALL members must take the oath unto this god ! So both you and I know it !


You say you get it, but you don't.

This is absolutely false!!! When a mason takes an oath to the GAOTU, he is taking an oath to his OWN PERSONAL GOD! I made an oath to God Almighty. A muslim mason makes an oath to Allah!

In programming terms, The GAOTU is a VARIABLE. And the value of that variable is whoever the individual mason's God is. It is not any one God, and it is NOT a conglomerate of various Gods. It is an embodiment of the individual mason's God.

The GAOTU is only a way of referring to a mason's personal God. Nothing more!!!

How hard can this be to understand!?!? :bnghd:

[edit on 9-6-2005 by sebatwerk]




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