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Provocateur State: Who's Really Behind the Insurgency?

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posted on May, 25 2005 @ 12:44 PM
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It's good to know people finally seem to be tuning in to the whole petro-dollar vs. euro problem. You seem to have a good handle onnit. Would you care to briefly explain the situation here for those folks unfamiliar with it? I'm kinda busy - got one perverbial hand tied behind my back at the moment.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]




posted on May, 25 2005 @ 12:54 PM
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I'll find a good link to the deficit dollar problem, covering all aspects, else we will be involved in neverending economy discussions



[edit on 25-5-2005 by Moretti]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
okydoky.

Impressive use of jargon, tho!


It would help if you understood the jargon. Also individuals have this strange notion that the CIA is operating completely rogue, utilizing ODA teams. It's a nice theory for those who read Clancy novels. The CIA is under a terrible microscope right now as is all action in the Iraqi theater. Enjoy your conspiracy theory.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by Moretti
I'll find a good link to the deficit dollar problem, covering all aspects, else we will be involved in neverending freshman economy discussions here



Great. Thanks!


I read this excerpt from an Iraqi girl's blog the other day (she's quite famous). I thought I'd give y'all an excerpt and link, in case you wish to read further.



Baghdad Burning


... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...

Wednesday, May 18, 2005

The Dead and the Undead...
…She stood in the crowded room as her drove of minions stood around her...…A huddling mass trying to draw closer to her aura of evil. The lights flashed against her fangs as her cruel lips curled into a grimace. It was meant to be a smile but it wouldn't reach her cold, lifeless eyes… It was a leer- the leer of the undead before a feeding...

The above was not a scene from Buffy the Vampire Slayer- it was just Condi Rice in Iraq a day ago. At home, we fondly refer to her as The Vampire. She's such a contrast to Bush- he simply looks stupid. She, on the other hand, looks utterly evil.

The last two weeks have been violent. The number of explosions in Baghdad alone is frightening. There have also been several assassinations- bodies being found here and there. It's somewhat disturbing to know that corpses are turning up in the most unexpected places. Many people will tell you it's not wise to eat river fish anymore because they have been nourished on the human remains being dumped into the river. That thought alone has given me more than one sleepless night. It is almost as if Baghdad has turned into a giant graveyard.

The latest corpses were those of some Sunni and Shia clerics- several of them well-known. People are being patient and there is a general consensus that these killings are being done to provoke civil war. Also worrisome is the fact that we are hearing of people being rounded up by security forces (Iraqi) and then being found dead days later- apparently when the new Iraqi government recently decided to reinstate the death penalty, they had something else in mind.

But back to the explosions. One of the larger blasts was in an area called Ma'moun, which is a middle class area located in west Baghdad. It’s a relatively calm residential area with shops that provide the basics and a bit more. It happened in the morning, as the shops were opening up for their daily business and it occurred right in front of a butchers shop. Immediately after, we heard that a man living in a house in front of the blast site was hauled off by the Americans because it was said that after the bomb went off, he sniped an Iraqi National Guardsman.

I didn’t think much about the story- nothing about it stood out: an explosion and a sniper- hardly an anomaly. The interesting news started circulating a couple of days later. People from the area claim that the man was taken away not because he shot anyone, but because he knew too much about the bomb. Rumor has it that he saw an American patrol passing through the area and pausing at the bomb site minutes before the explosion. Soon after they drove away, the bomb went off and chaos ensued. He ran out of his house screaming to the neighbors and bystanders that the Americans had either planted the bomb or seen the bomb and done nothing about it. He was promptly taken away.

The bombs are mysterious. Some of them explode in the midst of National Guard and near American troops or Iraqi Police and others explode near mosques, churches, and shops or in the middle of sougs. One thing that surprises us about the news reports of these bombs is that they are inevitably linked to suicide bombers. The reality is that some of these bombs are not suicide bombs- they are car bombs that are either being remotely detonated or maybe time bombs. All we know is that the techniques differ and apparently so do the intentions. Some will tell you they are resistance. Some say Chalabi and his thugs are responsible for a number of them. Others blame Iran and the SCIRI militia Badir.
riverbendblog.blogspot.com...



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by vincere7
It would help if you understood the jargon. Also individuals have this strange notion that the CIA is operating completely rogue, utilizing ODA teams. It's a nice theory for those who read Clancy novels. The CIA is under a terrible microscope right now as is all action in the Iraqi theater. Enjoy your conspiracy theory.


You might wanna put those Clancy novels down, friend and come into the light.

You obviously do not understand the concept of plausible deniability.


Btw, we're discussing a Rumsfeld operation planned and executed out of the bowels of his Pentagon (OSP). This is not a CIA joint. So, you've missed the boat completely.



[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
You might wanna put those Clancy novels down, friend and come into the light.

You obviously do not understand the concept of plausible deniability.


Btw, we're discussing a Rumsfeld operation planned and executed out of the bowels of his Pentagon (OSP). This is not a CIA joint. So, you've missed the boat completely.


A poor attempt at turning the tables from your ill informed, misunderstood view of how operations take place, and work. Lets examine your mental dilemma shall we,


Originally posted by EastCoastKid
That element and the violence they have wrought makes absolutely NO sense to anyone. With one exception. Those who understand the true aim: to sow Civil War. That has Rumsfeld's and his (P2OG) name all over it.


First dilemma - believing rhetoric. Here is what you quoted,


Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Perhaps because these attacks would be instigated on the order of the Honorable Mr. Rumsfeld. According to Los Angeles Times military analyst William Arkin, writing Oct. 27, 2002, Rumsfeld set out to create a secret army, "a super-Intelligence Support Activity" network that would "bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception," to stir the pot of spiraling global violence.


And your responce to my attempt at educating those who are ignorant of reality,


Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Btw, we're discussing a Rumsfeld operation planned and executed out of the bowels of his Pentagon (OSP). This is not a CIA joint. So, you've missed the boat completely.


You based your entire post off a quoted article, which states, "bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception," to stir the pot of spiraling global violence. So yes, it has all to do with CIA operations according to your quote. You attempted to build your base of evidence off an invalid, unsound argument due to false premises.

You probably have no idea what I just said, as you do not understand the "jargon" of writing strong arguments, that produce sound conclusions.

I don't read clancy novels. I did see the Hunt for Red October, and as Ronald Reagan put it, "It's a great yarn."



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
I hate to break it to you, but the source, that link is excellent. Too bad what it deals with goes right over your head.

Quit being so naive.




Lets look at that web site shall we?


About the Centre for Research on Globalization
The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research and media group of progressive writers, scholars and activists committed to curbing the tide of "globalisation" and "disarming" the New World Order. The CRG webpage at globalresearch.ca... based in Montréal publishes news articles, commentary, background research and analysis on a broad range of issues, focussing on the interrelationship between social, economic, strategic, geopolitical and environmental processes.
CRG Statement
The Centre's objective is to unveil the workings of the New World Order.
War and globalization go hand in hand, leading, in the post Cold War era, to the destruction of countries and the impoverishment of hundreds of millions of people. In turn, this global economic system is marked by an unprecedented concentration of private wealth. The institutions of war, police repression and economic management interface with one another. NATO is not only in liaison with the Pentagon and the CIA, it also has contacts with the IMF and the World Bank. In turn, the Washington based international financial bureaucracy, responsible for imposing deadly "economic medicine" on developing countries has close ties to the Wall Street financial establishment.
The powers behind this system are those of the global banks and financial institutions, the military-industrial complex, the oil and energy giants, the biotech conglomerates and the powerful media and communications giants, which fabricate the news and overtly distorts the course of world events. In turn, the police apparatus represses, in the name of "Western democracy", all forms of dissent and critique of the dominant neoliberal ideology.
This "false consciousness" which pervades our societies, prevents critical debate and masks the truth. Ultimately, this false consciousness precludes a collective understanding of the workings of a World economic and political system, which destroys people's lives. The only promise of global capitalism is a World of landless farmers, shuttered factories, jobless workers and gutted social programs with "bitter economic medicine" under the WTO and the IMF constituting the only prescription.
The New World Order is based on the "false consensus" of Washington and Wall Street, which ordains the "free market system" as the only possible choice on the fated road to a "global prosperity". The CRG purports to reveal the truth and disarm the falsehoods conveyed by the controlled corporate media.
Michel Chossudovsky,
Editor
29 August 2001


Well they seem a bit biased to me. Certainly I would take any claims that they make with a rather large grain of salt.

Now as to the author of that article:

demilitarizethepolice.netfirms.com...

. . “If we, in the peace, justice and liberation movements expect to succeed in our efforts, we cannot allow for the increasingly illegal, repressive and brutal suppression of our right to dissent from the pathological Bush agenda to continue. We must be active, pro-active, pre-emptive between protests to insure our ability to protest. In this sense then, we must realize the seemingly impossible. We must demilitarizie the police.”


It is clear that this author can not be classified as impartial.

Here he is calling for the upsurption of the democratic process by trying to disrupt the Republican National Convention:


I’d like to see 20-30,000 people surrounding MSG on Aug. 29 and sitting down. Not only will we resist the attempt to repress our dissent, but we’ll bring the ritual to a halt. I’m not suggesting we just walk into their jails. Strategic direct action isn’t passive. If we’re able to disrupt the proceedings non-violently through sheer force of numbers, we can create an opening that will last well beyond the RNC.

rncwatch.typepad.com...




A little history on him


During the squatter struggles, Morales took a hiatus of sorts from the church. Now with what he calls the “normalization” and “decriminalization” of the squats, he’s found himself drawn back to his religious calling.
After Reverend Julio Torres became pastor at St. Mark’s one of the first things he did was to stop by Morales’ squat. He knocked on Morales’ door, held out a priest’s shirt and said he needed him. Morales originally met Torres, who is from El Salvador, when both were involved in liberation theology.
“I’m objective enough to know I’m not your standard priest type,” Morales said. “My role with Julio here in part is to be a bridge between the church and community — the grassroots activists and Hispanic immigrant community, working on housing and immigration rights.”
He performs weddings, though is less likely than other priests to put a prospective couple through the paces — if they love each other and seem to get along, he marries them. In the summer, he frequently subs around the diocese for priests on vacation. According to several acquaintances, Morales performed last rites for the dead at Ground Zero.
Morales’s position at the church is unpaid. He supports himself through carpentry work, a skill he picked up as a squatter, which he does when not engaged in his other occupation — research and writing on the military and police.
In an era of mass protests, Morales — like some sort of East Village leftist Zelig — is again right in the mix. Starting in the late 1990s and increasingly after 2001, he has become an expert on what he says is a new relatively unknown initiative by Washington to quell domestic dissent. The Pentagon even has a name for the 10-year-old program: O.O.T.W., or Operations Other Than War. In Morales’ view, the line separating the military from the police is being blurred, a direct violation of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which bars the military from acting as a police force.
“That act is under review by the Bush administration,” he said. “There’s a very good chance it will be repealed. When you collapse the police function with the military function, that’s what you call a police state.”


This guy’s right out of a Simon and Garfunkle song

”And when the radical priest
Come to get me released
We was all on the cover of newsweek”




So, it is obvious that this article is not without a heavy degree of bias. Thus without clear and concrete data to support it’s claims, I would tend to be a bit skeptical of its claims. .




[edit on 25-5-2005 by HowardRoark]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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If you guys were even familiar with the program the article spoke of, you wouldn't have wasted all that space grubbing for your partisan views. Or is this some feeble attempt to take the conversation away from the thread's subject?



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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Why don't you tell us what you know about Rumsfeld's Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG).

That is, if you've even heard of it before this thread.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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Good Job, Vibcere7.


When ECC gets called onto the carpet, he usually resorts to his Barry Sanders-in-the-backfield imitation and starts dodging left and right........

I'm surprised he hasn't posted with yet another attempt to change the subject, or resorted to one of his patented one or two line sarcaso-posts.




posted on May, 25 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Did a search, and came up with the following sources regarding the Preemptive Operations Group. Reports on said group seem to stem from an LA Times article by a William Arkin. (Arkin, W. (2002) "The Secret War: Frustrated by intelligence failures, the Defense Department is dramatically expanding its "black world" of covert operations," Los Angeles Times 27 October.) I was unable to find the text of this article in full. The following is from an article regarding the stories which the US media downplayed as they presented the US in a bad light:



4. Rumsfeld's plan to provoke terrorists

According to a classified document, "Special Operations and Joint Forces in Countering Terrorism" prepared for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld by his Defense Science Board, a new organization has been created to thwart potential terrorist attacks on the United States. This counter-terror operations group--the "Proactive Preemptive Operations Group" (P2OG) will require 100 people and at least $ 100 million a year. The team of covert counter-intelligence agents will be responsible for secret missions designed to target terrorist leaders. The secret missions are designed to "stimulate reactions" among terrorist groups, provoking them into committing violent acts which would then expose them to "counterattack" by U.S. forces.

In a strange twist of logic, it seems the plan is to somehow combat terrorism by causing it. According to the report, other strategies include stealing money from terrorist cells or tricking them with fake communications. The Defense Department already maintains a secretive counter-terror operations group known as Delta Force that is called in when a crisis happens.

The current P2OG program is not entirely new to the United States. One similar program was Operation Northwoods. In 1963, America's top military brass presented a plan to President John Kennedy that called for a fake terrorist campaign--complete with bombings, hijackings, plane crashes and dead Americans--to provide "justification" for an invasion of Cuba, a Mafia/corporate fiefdom which had recently been lost to Castro. Kennedy rejected the plan.

Former president Nixon wanted such a group, but congress denied it; President Reagan tried to use the National Security Council instead, but ran into trouble with the Iran-Contra affair. Now, President Bush may finally realize the dream.

There has been no new information about the group since it was first mentioned nationally in the Los Angeles Times as part of a larger story on Pentagon plans for new "secret armies."


Source: St. Louis Journalism Review, "Most undercovered stories raise questions: do media ignore issues which place U.S. in bad light?" October 1, 2003



US Imperialism in the Philippines: Neo-Colonial Residues

Shortly after 9/11, US government officials announced that the ASG--which had been operating a terrorist racket in the southern Philippine island province of Basilan, just southwest of Mindanao--had links to al-Qaeda and would become a focus of US global anti-terrorism operations. Prior to this, ASG had primarily gained media exposure through small-scale violent acts such as the kidnapping for ransom, and occasional execution, of Catholic priests and foreign tourists. With the announcement that ASG was now a target of the global "war on terror," some observers began to speak of Basilan potentially turning into the next Afghanistan (International Peace Mission 2002).

To understand the strains involved in portraying ASG as a threat requiring massive deployment of military force to the region--as well as to understand some of the strange political and military contortions that were to follow this deployment--it is necessary to note briefly the historical geography of social struggles in the southern Philippines. Long the most Islamized region of the Philippines, and also the region with some of the highest levels of poverty (in spite of significant natural resources), the south has also been the region most distant from Manila's rulers (be they Spanish, American, or Filipino) and the region that has been most susceptible to separatist struggles. In this sense, struggles in places like Mindanao have had, and continue to have, a sub-imperial dimension, as successive governments have attempted to deal with the enduring legacies of colonial incorporation and ongoing uneven development.

The most recent phase of the anti-sub-imperial struggles in the south developed at the same time leftist activity against the Marcos dictatorship was rising, with the formation of the MNLF in the early 1970s. A nationalist front, the MNLF has been based in Mindanao and has struggled for greater regional autonomy within a broader framework of struggle against military dictatorship (Noble, 1987, 195-7). While the MNLF is the largest of Mindanao's insurgent groups, and the one with the strongest connections to the Philippine left, the late 1970s saw the emergence of a group somewhat more committed to struggle for an Islamic state, the MILF. MILF members have typically been more religiously orthodox and politically conservative, and some have reportedly received training in al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, as well as with Indonesian Islamist groups that received similar training (ICG 2002b; 2003c, 6, 16-7). Yet, like the MNLF, the MILF has an indigenous base of social support in Mindanao and operates independently of these international networks (Rahim 2003, 214). Though the MNLF and MILF have not always cooperated, together they have formed the most important regional opposition to leaders in Manila, and with the fall of the Marcos dictatorship, the 1990s regime of President Fidel Ramos had in fact been able to move towards some resolution of regional conflicts by carrying out negotiations with them.

Against the backdrop of these major political maneuvers, the appearance on the scene of ASG in the early 1990s was a barely-noticed event. In a semi-chaotic context where many different criminal and small-scale terrorist organizations operate alongside (and perhaps sometimes in connection with) insurgents, ASG was seen as little more than a group of bandits--in fact, Philippine President Gloria Macagapal-Arroyo characterized ASG as "a money-crazed gang of criminals" prior to 9/11 (International Peace Mission 2002, 10). Indeed, on the Philippine Left, ASG was widely suspected to have been a creation of the CIA and/or Philippine intelligence, formed to further splinter and undermine the Moro insurgency.

Such views, of course, are not easy to fully substantiate, yet interestingly enough, in this case their plausibility is buttressed precisely by the claims emanating from the US government after 9/11. If ASG is indeed a Philippine extension of al-Qaeda, then its "link" with the CIA is straightforward, since it is by now well known that the CIA provided training for al-Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan. Moreover, the possible use or toleration of groups such as ASG by US intelligence cannot be dismissed given what is now official policy in Washington. As Pentagon analyst William Arkin notes, US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Science Board 2002 Study on Special Operations and Joint Forces in Support of Countering Terrorism recommends the creation of a Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group which would, among other activities, launch secret operations aimed at "stimulating reactions" among terrorists, which would then facilitate further US response (Arkin 2002). In short, terrorist activities in areas the US military plans to police are desiridata of US policy. The possibility, then, that ASG operatives have been known to US and Philippine intelligence since their arrival in Basilan and have been at least tacitly allowed to operate cannot be dismissed.


Source:
Journal of Contemporary Asia, "The 'war on terrorism' comes to Southeast Asia." March 1, 2005 .

Hope these articles help in some way. The latter is 28 pages long, and while it doesn't deal with the Preemptive Ops Group more than in the context I quoted, it really is an eye opening piece.

-koji K.


[edit on 25-5-2005 by koji_K]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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koji, how about some links to those?

I would like to read the entire thing.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
koji, how about some links to those?

I would like to read the entire thing.


I would love to post the links to these articles, but I got them from a pay service so I am unable to (the link will show up as an error). If there is a way to transfer files via u2u I can try to send it that way. Let me know.

-koji K.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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Here's a link to Koji's first article:
www.projectcensored.org...

And more...



UPDATE BY CHRIS FLOYD

Appropriately enough for a story about the deepest possible covert operation — penetrating terrorist cells and provoking them into action — the saga of the Pentagon's "Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group" (P2OG) went straight back into the dark after strutting its brief hour upon the stage. There has been no new information about the group since it was first mentioned nationally in the Los Angeles Times as part of a larger story on Pentagon plans for new "secret armies." Was it funded? Is it operational? Has it "flushed out" any terrorists lately by goading them into "action"? Are any of the post-Iraq War spate of terrorist atrocities linked to P2OG activities? We don't know. And with Donald Rumsfeld's openly avowed penchant for "strategic misinformation," how will we ever know? Certainly the mainstream press has done nothing to enlighten us. Although the CounterPunch article (which appeared simultaneously in The Moscow Times) provoked a lively response in the "alternative" media (print, web and radio), there has not been a single subsequent mention of the group in the U.S. national press. In the UK, John Pilger has raised warning flags about P2OG in The New Statesman and the Daily Mirror, while The Ecologist also ran a version of the CounterPunch article. The rest is silence. At first glance, this decided lack of interest might seem a curious reaction, given the American media's insatiable—and profitable—obsession with terrorism. But the media's equally intense, and equally profitable, abhorrence of moral ambiguity—especially when it involves possible American complicity in mayhem and murder—makes the silence easier to understand.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For more information see:
"The Secret War," by William Arkin, Los Angeles Times, Oct. 27, 2002, at www.commondreams.org...
"P2OG Allows Pentagon to Fight Dirty," David Isenberg, Asia Times, Nov. 5, 2002, at www.atimes.com...
At excerpt from the partially classified Defense Science Board briefing that proposed the creation of P2OG at www.serendipity.li...
"Friendly Fire: Operation Northwoods,"
ABCNews.com, May 1, 2001, at abcnews.go.com...
John Pilger, The New Statesman, Dec. 12, 2002, pilger.carlton.com...



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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it looks like the secret unit was to provoke the terrorists to reveal themselves from hiding. usually u dont know who is attacking until they attack. kinda like the embassy attacks back in 98 and we arrested the ones who were there to do the operation. also it reveal Osama and his group and made America more aware. so the plan is to get terrorists to reveal themselves sooner than later.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
so the plan is to get terrorists to reveal themselves sooner than later.


(1) Infiltrate

(2) Instigate

(3) Exterminate

They're only causing more mayem, in the end.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 08:31 PM
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So is there any proof that anyone other than the insurgents are behind the Iraq bombings?

No.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
it looks like the secret unit was to provoke the terrorists to reveal themselves from hiding. usually u dont know who is attacking until they attack. kinda like the embassy attacks back in 98 and we arrested the ones who were there to do the operation. also it reveal Osama and his group and made America more aware. so the plan is to get terrorists to reveal themselves sooner than later.


This program might also be more disinformation to cause doubt within terrorist cells. If it were a legit operation, I doubt it would ever be public knowledge. I think the plan all along has been to use terror against terror by putting out so much crap, they begin to lose sight of their original plans and concentrate on which one of them might be a spy. Playing on the close-mindedness, paranoia and rabid hostility inate in nearly all militant islamist is as easy as releasing stories like these. They begin to distrust and fight within their own ranks.


I don't think the plan was to ever infiltrate, gain trust and gather evidence. We're not on a sting with efforts to make sure we have enough to convict here. We're on a search and destroy mission for these folks, like it or not. I don't think we are wasting the time and effort to get that many agents in their underground. Maybe a few who have been under a long time but not many and those are looking for the top dogs.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by HowardRoark
So is there any proof that anyone other than the insurgents are behind the Iraq bombings?

No.



Is there any proof Syria or Saddam loyalists are behind the mosque bombings ?

No.

Is there any motive for Syria or Saddam loyalists to bomb mosques ?

No.

Is there any motive for the CIA and Mossad to bomb mosques ?

Yes, their obvious divide&conquer strategy.




[edit on 27-5-2005 by Moretti]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by Moretti
Is there any proof Syria or Saddam loyalists are behind the mosque bombings ?

No.

Is there any motive for Syria or Saddam loyalists to bomb mosques ?

No.

Is there any motive for the CIA and Mossad to bomb mosques ?

Yes, their obvious divide&conquer strategy.


Hey Moretti are you trying to run away from the other thread? Just a note for the readers. You can see Moretti's real views on terrorism under the post "What we Iraqi's want?"

Moretti, Syrians recruit and train bombers how to blow themselves up. They're not dumb enough to explode themselves so they get young boys to do it for them. So will they explode a mosque - you betcha. Anything that will cause anti-American sentiment and increase recruits to - blow themselves up.




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