300 proofs to GODs existance

page: 8
0
<< 5  6  7    9 >>

log in

join

posted on Dec, 24 2003 @ 01:43 PM
link   
then how the hell do u explain God?




posted on Dec, 24 2003 @ 01:58 PM
link   
that argument breaks down easily when u consider the possibility that MAYBE the gods were just ETs or maybe jesus is sun god worship as I have read about and found out. think about it. why is the word son the same pronounciation as Sun? b/c they're the same thing in religion. the son of god is the Sun of god. Jesus is just a continuation of Sun God worship over the years but diguised as the Son of god, instead of the sun. and the language has been changed around a lot to make it seem like it could be historical, but it's not. the meeting with Constantine and all the bishops who worshipped all these diff. gods and things at Nicaea wasn't some meeting to make christianity the official religion of the byzantine empire. It was really a meeting to decide how they were gonna make a new religion to keep the masses in order. they used all the other gods of religions and the sun god figure of so many religions and made him Jesus and the apostles.

If you look further and further into Jesus and the historical proof, you'll find none. Jesus is just a myth and continuation of the same 5000 year old (or older) tale. there are throughout civilization about 20 or more diff. Jesus figures. Solomon is just a combination of 3 sun god names. Sol Invicticus, Om from Hinduism, and some other god named On, who I haven't figured out yet. the apostles are the 12 zodiac signs.

and you say that everything HAS to be created by god but I beg to differ. If God created everything, who created God? you say God is infinite but perhaps there's an even more powerful force that controls him or created him. If god is almighty, could he create a rock he can't lift? and if so, would he be able to make it liftable again? I used to think the same thing about the whole god situation until an atheist 'friend' of mine got me thinking. If all the religions are just myths as they will be proven when u research them, where is god? he's nowhere. just b/c everything seems complex and beautiful is no proof that god exists.

If you have read David Icke like me in the last few chapters of his books he talks about perception and reality and the holographic universe. I believe from reading it and pondering that perhaps WE are our own gods and we created the universe with our own consciousness. It's like the brahman nerguda, except we're being controlled by one consciousness that stays asleep forever dreaming our world. we're all creations of that one consciousness so ultimately, we're all one and one is all. why must god exist to create everything? you've been brainwashed by too much tv and fundamentalism to think that humans aren't capable of more than they're thought to be.

But humans are much more capable than we're told. the elites just make us think we're nothing to keep us imprisoned in an emotional and mental prison. but once we read more and more info about our past and origins we find out that not only are we our own gods but we're far more powerful than anyone can imagine. a great man once said "we're not humans beings on a spiritual journey. we're spiritual beings on a human journey." I believe it speaks for itself.



posted on Dec, 27 2003 @ 08:07 PM
link   
I dont worry about God, or religion. I pay the Bible no attention. In my opinion there is no heaven, no hell. You create your own happiness or anger. Yes, we have a creator. Who it may be? It doesn't matter. Why worry! I don't. Matter is never destroyed... only changes form. Think about that. Don't be scared to die.. Don't be scared to live. Just have fun!



posted on Dec, 29 2003 @ 10:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by GeniusSage
then how the hell do u explain God?


Sorry it took som long, but I've been off the net most Christmass. Back to your question:

Like I explain Love: It's impossible, but indeed it does exist. And as for the Creator: My faith in him is pure logical. It's complete nonsense to teach our kids that this universe and all the others are not the product of vast creative skills and Love for Life. To say it all happened by itself is a greater treason than killing Jezjuah I think. It's purely diabolic.

Blessings,
Mikromarius



posted on Dec, 29 2003 @ 10:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by AlexJones
that argument breaks down easily when u consider the possibility that MAYBE the gods were just ETs or maybe jesus is sun god worship as I have read about and found out. think about it. why is the word son the same pronounciation as Sun?


Hehe. The first part is true, but the latter, though true, it is a relative truth. In Norwegian the word for the Sun is Sol, the scientifically "correct" name of our Sun, allthough it is not for Sol was the Roman name for Ba'al Sebul or the main Satan of the Hebrews. You are correct that in our Roman seeded whorish culture, Jezjuah is celebrated as the Sungod, in much the same ways sungods have been celebrated all over the world for millennia. But the fact that Jezjuah was the counterpart of the Sun worship, he is the spiritual Sun perhaps, but not the physical, spiritually he may be likened with the Sun, but not physically, he is what gives the Sun it's life and power: Light which can also mean Truth prophetically. But the fact that the name Jeshuah is nearly identical with the Hebrew word for salvation is quite interresting: 'Jeshuwah (salvation) : Jezjuah (the Name of my God) is a short form of the traditional Hebrew name Jehoshuah which means YHWH is Salvation. If you want to figure out the mysteries within the Bible, go to the science of the word, it's history and it's meanings -- Ethymology. You'll see that languages are often designed around some form of written cornerstone. Hebrew is designed for the Torah just as the Torah is designed for the Hebrew language, and Jezjuah came to the lost sheep of Israel, it was the disciples who was sent out to find them. Instead we find ourselves in a world even more alienated and with the Jews scattered even further across the globe and the Gospel and the Books are highly perverted today from the original scriptures. By adding or subtracting one single letter or word in a book, you could change it's whole content. And what about the Roman and Brittish translitterations of the names? Horrible! That's scary. And when you know what the "priests" did to the early works, you should become even more scared. Jezjuah among other things stressed to his disciples that they should never write down anything, the Gospel was meant to be an oral tradition. The new Word which would be a continuance or a son of the Tannakh is the Apocalypse, the prophetic story about the Son of Salvation.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 29-12-2003 by mikromarius]



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 12:44 AM
link   
THE CREATOR GOD STRIKES OUT!

Every possible form which energy and/or matter can take, must be in use and exists today in time and space. Why? Because we are always in the middle of Eternity. Eternity is a two way street. Eternity runs both ways don't you know. These forms will include universes about which we know nothing. It will include undiscovered transformations of energy/matter, and any other undiscovered condition, forms or expressions which energy and/or matter may take.

When we speak of a God here, we are only speaking of that concept fostered upon us by the Christian religion which claims that a God is the creator of all that is. They claim a God was preexistent. That is, before there was anything, there was a God.

By using this Christian definition, we are eliminating the many varied little concepts of a God. Most of those activities, miracles and controversies (if they are true) could also be attributed to some super race of long lived aliens, and they need not be classified as gods. Aliens could easily possess powers, technologies and abilities which seem god like to our infant science. But, they are only advancements which some day even we may possess. So we are only dealing with the Christian concept of a creator God.

To say that before anything existed, a God existed, is an oxymoron. Such a statement can neither be understood nor conceived by our minds. It can not possibly be true and here is why. If a God existed, then that God is something. And something is not nothing. So the universe could not have possibly come from nothing. It must have come from something. Thom's law explains that.

Thom's Law
"Nothing can not produce something. If there was ever a time when there was nothing, there would STILL be nothing."

So even a God (which is something) could not be produced by nothing. Therefore, if a God came into being, he must have come out of something. The only "something" which exists now and has always existed is that of energy and/or matter.

So, any God (or anything else) must be, or must have been, the product of something. Everything which is, must be a product of energy and/or matter.

Now that is strike one against the Christians who say that a God preexisted nothing. Or, as some say, a God coexisted with nothing. That is, while there was nothing, there was also a God. (Unless, of course, you wish to claim that God IS nothing. I could accept that claim, but then I would not be here would I? Proof enough. I am here.) So, you can not have a God (which is something) and say that before him, there was nothing. You must either start with a God, which is something (and came from something) or you must start with nothing. For sure, you can not have it both ways. If there is a God, he is something and something can not come out of nothing.

Strike two says, since there was something which must have predated a God, God could not have created everything. He could not have created himself if he was not himself to start with. God himself/herself/it would have to be developed from something that was NOT a God. God is claimed to have knowledge and character. Knowledge and character MUST be developed. It can not be decreed. It can not be magically waved into existence. Knowledge and character is a PRODUCT of life and living. It is a product of making wise and foolish choices. It is a product of growth.

Did a God have the knowledge to create or make a universe? Where did he develop that knowledge? It is inconceivable that God simply sneezed and the universe came into being. I don't think even the Christians would believe that.

To have the knowledge to create, or even to make a universe, God must have had some prior experience, some development, some trials and errors in how and why this worked and that did not. Also, the Christians attribute lots of wonderful attributes to their God. God is all good. God is all great. God is all just. God is all wise. God is all knowing. God is everywhere. God is all powerful, and so forth.

That is, the Christians give God a good, moral and powerful character. Now character can not be developed in a vacuum. Character must be developed by trial and error. Character must be developed by finding out what is good and what works. To do this one must also find out what is bad and does not work. Character must always answer the question, "Why?" in order to develop. Character is a growth process.

Therefore, there must have been other individuals and intelligences with whom God could interact in order to develop a good character. There must be at least a family of them. Therefore, God is not alone. So, other intelligence demands some type of setting in which they could interact. They must have a place, a home of sorts. So we now must allow God to have at least a family, a home and a setting, or a place of operating, in order to develop his character. So that is strike two against a creator God being by HIMSELF, and at the same time having both a good character and ultimate science knowledge. God could not decree himself a good character or vast scientific knowledge. He would not know what was good or what to decree. He must have developed that knowledge.

In addition to this, God talked! How could a God language develop without other like beings with whom to communicate. Come on now! Think about it!

Next, we come to strike three. If there was something out of which God came, then there was already material available to make a universe. That is, God could not possibly have created the universe. However, God could have MADE the universe. That is, he could have taken the material which was available and MADE the universe out of that.
The Christian information about a creation comes from a mistranslation of the Jewish Testament. The Jewish text reads:

"In beginning, the GODS MADE the heaven and the earth."

The Christians CHANGED that to read:

"In THE beginning, GOD CREATED the heaven and the earth."
In other words, the concept of a creation stems from a MISTRANSLATION - from a LIE. Think about that!

Either the God of the Old Testament made a mistake and used the word "made" when he should have used the word "create" in telling us about a beginning, or the New Testament God made a mistake and used the word "create" instead of the word "made" to describe a beginning. In other words, one of these Gods is lying to us. Which God is lying to us?

Since the Old Testament God told his tale first and then the New Testament God plagiarized his work, I must assume the New Testament God is the real liar in this case. Of course, if you do not wish to give the New Testament God the credit for this lie, you could give that credit to the writers of the holy book.

There are those Christians who say (in spite of Thom's law) that God did come out of nothing. I have some questions. Is God supposed to be greater than the universe? The Christians say, "Yes." Then why didn't NOTHING create something smaller or less significant than a God in its first effort at creation? Why didn't NOTHING do something simple first? How would NOTHING have the wisdom to make something more important and more complex than itself, more important and complex than the whole universe? Why didn't NOTHING make the universe first and then make a God?

How did NOTHING make a God when it had not yet discovered how to make the hydrogen atom? The effort of making a God would have challenged all the resources of NOTHING, which resources of course is zero. Hydrogen atoms would not have strained the efforts, knowledge and power of NOTHING nearly as much as making something greater than the universe.

Did you know that believers in all ages have created gods? Today believers can create too! They make lots of gods using only the twenty six letters of the English alphabet.

Now it is a fact, you can not put a strain on zero. You can multiply it. You can divide it. You can add it. You can kick zero around, abuse it, smash it, cast it aside and guess what? It is still a perfect zero. So I do here by declare ZERO to be the only perfect number in the universe. Nothing you can do to it changes the value of ZERO. It is always and for ever - ZERO. You just can not get anything out of ZERO except ZERO. And NOTHING is ZERO. And ZERO is NOTHING. A God did not and COULD NOT come out of ZERO.

So, the Christian concept of a creator God goes down on a called strike three. From now on, the creator God must take his seat on the bench next to the rest of the religious gods who struck out. A God could not have preexisted that from which he came. He could not create himself. He could not create the universe without vast knowledge which he must have learned by trial and error. He could not have learned without other intelligence with whom to interact. He could not have created the universe from nothing when material (energy/matter) was already available from which to make it. The creator God strikes out.

Since there is no creator God, maybe there is a Maker God. Let us examine that next.

Updated 07/08/03

Coming next: THE MAKER GOD IS THROWN OUT!

(Copied from www.jovialatheist.com and the writin is NOT mine)



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 12:45 AM
link   
THE MAKER GOD IS THROWN OUT

We have moved from the impossible Christian oxymoron concept of a (creator) God, to a Jewish (maker) God concept which is more in keeping with our comprehension and understanding. But is this new God view valid? Did any God make the universe? Did the maker God sneeze and the universe came into being? Did he remark in his God language (to others), "Well, by Me! Look at THAT! What have I wrought? I think I will name it, THE UNIVERSE." No, my friends, I think not.

So, we must again face the need of vast knowledge. And to this we must also add PURPOSE! What would be the purpose of a God making a universe? What possibly COULD be the purpose? Did God really need and want a toy to play with? What do the Jews and Christians have to say about this?

Now, both the Jews and the Christians tell us that God does not need anything or anyone to make him satisfied. We are told that God is self sufficient. He is happy with himself. God is altogether perfect. We are told God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Yet, according to the writers of the holy book, we find God was NOT satisfied. He was not self sufficient, nor happy. God was lonesome, so he made at least a son and a ghost to keep him company. He also made his chess and game opponent - the Devil (Lucifer). It seems God DID need a toy to play with, so he made the universe and plays with it daily (according to the believers). Could it be that the universe and especially the earth, is the game board upon which God and the Devil play their games? Do they congratulate each other on wise moves? Do they wager on the outcome of the games? Does God ever lose? What kind of game would it be if you created an opponent who always loses? Even a God would not cheat like that - would he?

But God does not face the Devil alone. No! He has lots of advice on what moves to make. This advice is rendered daily (sometimes five times a day) by those who have appointed themselves as "God Advisors." These advisors call themselves BELIEVERS and proceed to advise and tell God what to do about life, the world and the universe. They call this strategic advise making - PRAYER.

Daily, and even hourly, God is bathed in the fervent prayers of the faithful believers. God seems to depend on these daily instructions and prayers to help him outline his vague work and play schedule. Without these constant instructions on how to conduct his business, play his games and run his universe, God would be at a loss to know if he should heal Aunt Mary or not. Without this advise (according to the believers), God would not know which team to let win the game (or the boxing match) (or the war).

Believers tell us God depends upon these polls from the snow white, granite minds to tell him what to do. Do the Christians really think God is the president of a democracy and daily waits for a consensus of public opinion before he knows what to do? Is it not possible God could do good, right and just things on his own without the guidance of the Christians and Jews? Am I getting this right?

These snow white, granite minds believe that God must have a consensus of public opinion, or else, he might just do the wrong thing and let Aunt Mary die. Or worst of all, God might just do nothing at all. But keep in mind, God is not lazy. He just needs some guidance. So God does stay busy because he gets a multitude of assignments. And let us not forget the many chores God must run for the granite minds.

There is a problem though. All of God's earthly advisors have less than a hundred years experience in the profession of "God Advisor" and certainly no more as "Divine Chore Supervisor". Now, this worries me! I am afraid they will misinform God. When God finds out he has been betrayed and led astray by his advisors on earth, he might decide to get rid of them (called the rapture). He might even clean the game board and in so doing decide to rid the earth of ALL earthlings (called apocalypse). We are told he almost did this once in the past (called the flood). Let us not provoke him into doing that again. I plead with all of you advisors, PLEASE! Let God run the world by himself and play his games without any advise from you! Let him make his own mistakes so we will not ALL be held liable.

About thirty years ago, God and I worked out an agreement. I promised I would let God be his own God and do his own thing, and God decided to let me be my own man and do my own thing. We are both very happy with the arrangement - especially God.

Why don't you make a similar agreement? It frees your mind and takes away the fear of the future. I live an honest life and let the future do with me as it sees fit. Whether you know it or not, the same will happen to you. Besides, a good God must love people who search for truth, who learn to use their minds which nature has graciously given us. Did you know any good and just God loves Atheists? Did you know a just God must be very disappointed in those who refuse to pursue truth, who refuse to look at BOTH sides of these important matters? Could it be that God will switch the name plates of hell and heaven?

There is something else here which bothers me. The snow white, granite minds have assumed divine prerogative and appointed themselves spies, scouts and monitors FOR God. They purpose to seek out and identify all the enemies of God. They then inform God who are his enemies. When God's justice is not swift and harsh on these newly invented enemies, the granite minds assume the divine prerogative of judge, jury and executioner. These Christians, who have classified Atheists as God's worst enemies, are at a loss why so many smart people become Atheists and yet live moral lives which are the envy of Christians.

The granite minds think God's patience is a vice. They do! They are afraid God will not be as expeditious and harsh in his judgment as they will. They do not trust God's justice. They do not trust his opinion, nor do they trust God to do his own work! So they do God's work.

Thus, we have doctors shot, clinics burned, political lies told, honest people harassed, religious lies told, prohibitions enacted, social lies told on minorities, boycotts of business, crusades against political and religious figures, ethnic cleansing, wars of conquest and more lies told. These granite minds tell us they are God's people, his front line troops. They tell us they have the truth and we should believe the same myths they do. We are told we should act like they do.

I am sorry granite minds. I am not that evil. I am not that religious. I have moral standards which keep me from harming my neighbor just because he is different from me. I have morals which keep me from believing that any God could be as cruel, base and juvenile as the granite minds insists he is. I have morals which keep me from telling lies to others and insisting that the lies are the truth. If there is a god, I know he must be JUST. And a just God could not cast a person into torment for all eternity simply because he could not believe the unbelievable, the immoral and the impossible.

No Just or Good God ever thirsted for sheep's blood, man's blood, nor did he thirst for the blood of his own kin. That is BARBARIC! That is simply UNBELIEVABLE!

According to the believers, God whips up rain at man's request. He removes mountains, throws lightening bolts, breathes hurricanes into destructive existence, stomps earthquakes into being, guides tornados along their destructive paths, and he moves comets, asteroids and stars around. Many other unbelievable and immoral actions are attributed to God by believers who claim God dabbles into the daily affairs of men and nations.

Of course, according to the believers, God does this to impress and punish non believers. He is so bent on attracting the attention of non believers, he is willing to destroy the just together with the unjust, the good with the bad. He does this in order to punish the non believers for their sin of Honest Doubt and Logical Thinking. Some say he sent the earthquake to San Francisco because of some immorality of a few citizens in that place. And he plans to do the same to Orlando, Florida. You remember they let some gay people have a parade. The snow white granite minds informed us of this terrible, terrible sin. They then instructed God to get on with the destruction. Didn't you notice the fires and hurricanes last year. God was punishing the whole state of Florida to get back at Orlando for letting gays march for about an hour.

The whole concept of a God making and running the universe boils down to this question. Is the universe religious? Is it a toy of the Almighty? Does the universe run at the whim and arbitration of a maker God? Can mere man tell God what to do about the Iraqis or the Irish? Does this Maker God send the winning numbers when we pray? Does the Almighty run the chores and errands of the granite minds? No! Certainly not!

The universe is natural and runs by the inherent laws of matter, energy and nature.

Yes it does!

There is no creator god and there is no maker god!

(Copied from www.jovialatheist.com and the writing is NOT mine)



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 12:47 AM
link   
Read the above 2 posts in FULL and you'll be be CONVINCED that God doesn't exist once and for all. What have you got to lose. They aren't THAT long! Read'em! Then comment, and if you're not convinced, that's fine too, but let's see what your argument against that would be.



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 01:02 AM
link   
The website posted by the creator of the thread is www.godlessgeeks.com is actually an ATHEIST website and these are JOKE PROOFS making fun of God's existance.. or lack thereof. They realize how ABSURD the proofs sound and have created them to demonstrate that you can't even logically deduce his existance. However, his LACK of existance was logically deduced in my previous 2 posts.



posted on Jan, 1 2004 @ 03:04 PM
link   
Throughout the two major threads going on right now (the two proving/disproving) God, you seem to get angry everytime someone brings up a theory of God's existstance? Why is this? It seems you might have some sort of "grudge" or something..

-wD



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 06:59 PM
link   
after reading those proofs, a lot of them are pretty weak.

Interesting thread though.



posted on Jan, 8 2004 @ 07:32 PM
link   
Although it's entirely overdone, it does show the mentality of the believer, IMO. They could have saved alot of space and just typed:

I think god exists, therefore god exists.
or
I'm not capable of reason, therefore god exists.
or
I like eggs, therefore god exists.
or
I pissed my pants, therefore god exists.

Any one of these sentences depicts the mentality of the believer, IMO.
Of course, I'm probably Satan to most of them.


any

posted on Jan, 14 2004 @ 12:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by Tyriffic


If there was a person who said to you he believed the world was flat, you would laugh at him and walk away, not wanting to waste your time refuting him- thinking him a fool.


Thread necromancy, sorry, but I just noticed this.


Yes I would, I would show that person that the world is round because I believe in teaching and not ignorance.



posted on Jan, 15 2004 @ 02:19 PM
link   
this might have been already posted, sorry if it has.

im not sure what to believe about god, but that website was total bull# for example

ARGUMENT FROM META-SMUGNESS
(1) F**k you.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

Now either im stupid and dont get the meaning, or that is just someone having a laugh

SLATHER'S ARGUMENT
(1) My toaster is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

and that as well..........

OPRAH'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Check out this video segment.
(2) Now how can anyone watch that and NOT believe in God?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

etc.......

how does that persuade someone to believe in god?????



[Edited on 15-1-2004 by cleggy]



posted on Feb, 21 2004 @ 01:16 PM
link   
300 proofs to GODs existance

www.godlessgeeks.com...


If this article is reason that god exists then a zizzer zazzer zoo also exists. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you replace god with a zizzer zazzer zoo in the article then a zizzer zazzer zoo must exist.....correct? Replace god with anything in that article and that thing must exist.



posted on Mar, 7 2004 @ 11:31 AM
link   
I am Christian, just want to get that out right away, but what bothers me is the Satan goers out that that try to disprove God. Even Satan believes in God. Kinda has to.



posted on Mar, 7 2004 @ 11:43 AM
link   
God is or is not to any who believe or do not. I wonder when people will see the faith in their hearts, BE responsible as their own creations-self-willed, as by free-will and get over the arguing these topics. Honestly, if it is an issue of faith and the hope through ones heart, spirit and soul in the divine, it is obviously UNPROVEABLE by humana and a waste of personal energy to to anything but contemplate to self.

Besides, ANYONE who is a thinker or intellectual would appreciate the fact that if you're going to share information with others, it should have a forseeable solution or future as notion or philosophy because 5-10, 000 years of holy wars between different faiths, sects, etc., has done NOTHING to improve living on this rock yet...ya know?!



posted on Mar, 7 2004 @ 02:31 PM
link   
Ha, satanists have to beleive in god, no god, no satan. Of course, stanists are a branch of christianity. For according to christians god created satan, satan fought god, god won. Of course, this brings up the rule of the winner writes the rules and history. If Hitler had won, then Hitler would be seen as a god, a leader of leaders. But since US won, Hitler is seen as insane.

But still, the one post that explains christianity was the one with-
I like eggs, therefore god exists.

That about explains it. Or, if god created everything, who created god? Love that one, they just call you satan and go to hell. But if I am a satanist, isn't that where I want to go? Like telling a christian to go to heaven, doesn't make sense. Or burn you at the stake, boil you in oil, drowned, thrown off a cliff, hanged, you know, the stuff they've been doing for the past 1700 years.



posted on Mar, 7 2004 @ 02:46 PM
link   
all these "proofs" are just garbage. They're just statements and the writer gives no evidence backing up these statements. there is no god. i've said it before and i'll say it again. the bible that u hold in ur hand was translated by KING JAMES as in human hands and we all know how humans can distort stories and legends over time and translating them only adds to the confusion. therefore, the bible is NOT a reliable source and i would rather read a science book which contains actual facts that were proven in a laboratory than an old book that was butchered for centuries. personally, if jesus was real, i'd like to nail his crotch to the cross and piss on his body after he was nailed. then, i'd cut of his head and sh*t down his throat and feed his head to a couple of dogs. HAHHHHAHHAHAHHAHA!!!!!



posted on Sep, 17 2004 @ 02:17 PM
link   
Heres what i have to say. God isn't real except in the minds of people. He was created by early humans to explain natural phenoemenon. This would explaian why ancient religions, the ancient egyptian religion had a god for the sun, and the rain along with many others. They needed something to explain why these things came about and that they would continuing happening because at the time they didn't have enough scientific knowledge to explain otherwise.

That what i got to say





new topics
top topics
 
0
<< 5  6  7    9 >>

log in

join