Some Questions about Roswell

These are not to meant to sound like i'm a skeptic or trying to diminish the work done but some parts i can't add up and i was wondering if there has been further work or anyone thinks these are avenues they could research?
I understand if some of these are impossible to answer with no more detail than guess work but you never know, questions can lead to new trains of thought sometimes, it's worth asking!

1. The debris found wasn't able to be bent, cut, burnt or broken yet the debris was found in pieces scattered over a large area? So, at some point/force/pressure it is able to be broken then, has there been any further research or hypothesis on when that breaking point is? Or is there any government/scienctific slips/evidence that shows they researched this or used knowledge gained on creating better materials on Earth?

2. If it requires such a huge amount pressure or force to break this material, how could a body be retrieved from the crash site? Was this body or bodies meant to have been dead or alive? Whole or in part? OR where there parts to this craft that survived in tact and act similar to how a roll cage acts in a race car in which the bodies were inside meaning large pieces were salvaged that would contain technology?

3. Have there been any other indications of the symbols found on the I-beams in other areas? For example, do any Crop Circles depict similar symbology, any reports from abductees of reading similar symbology? Any work done to crack the symbology from descriptions or evidence?

4. Is it possible to work out roughly from known information, a level of speed/force of the impact to determine how hard this craft hit the Earth? It must of been very hard to break this material into pieces over such a wide area. Is it possible that there were 2 craft and 2 crashes or 1 craft which 'bounced' before it crashed?

5. Have there been any ideas on how the craft crashed and why? Was it shot down? Did it hit something? Was it a 'pilot' error? Was it a technical error? If it's assumed that it was a saucer shape, would that help in working out possible flaws in design that could be subject the pilots to a 'risk' factor when flying in our atmosphere? We know these UFOs can move in ways our planes can't, so why would it crash? Using what we know on fighter and other human aircraft crashes, could this info help determine how or why a saucer would crash at such a speed and force?

6. Were the bodies taken basically settled upon as being the basic Grey type? Has there been any research into which Grey type this is, where they'd be from, who they'd work for? (there's a few different ones arn't there?)

I know this crash occured over 50 years ago and it's been through a washing machine of disinformation but are there any more avenues to try to crack with this topic or are there MORE crashes, recoveries etc that offer more proof or more pieces to the puzzle?

- Is that Russian film of a saucer sticking out of the ground debunked as a fake? (looks it but i haven't looked into any real research on it)

- What other famous or infamous crashes, recoveries, evidence are there in regards to craft that the government is suppose to have? I remember reading ages ago about a guy who was doing work on building a homemade saucer type engine/project years ago and apperently the government took over his work and even had him look at an engine he couldn't explain. He said he walked inside it and it seemed to be living in a sense. Wish i could find more on that one, maybe it's common knowledge amongst the better researchers here and been debunked?

Anyway, there's heaps of questions but most of them are probably answered somewhere but for the most part, i haven't found any info going further into what is already known about Roswell. Most work rather puts the puzzle together in a way that disproves the official story (which is still worthy work of course!).




[edit on 23-5-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
5. Have there been any ideas on how the craft crashed and why? Was it shot down? Did it hit something? Was it a 'pilot' error? Was it a technical error? If it's assumed that it was a saucer shape, would that help in working out possible flaws in design that could be subject the pilots to a 'risk' factor when flying in our atmosphere? We know these UFOs can move in ways our planes can't, so why would it crash? Using what we know on fighter and other human aircraft crashes, could this info help determine how or why a saucer would crash at such a speed and force?

6. Were the bodies taken basically settled upon as being the basic Grey type? Has there been any research into which Grey type this is, where they'd be from, who they'd work for? (there's a few different ones arn't there?)

I know this crash occured over 50 years ago and it's been through a washing machine of disinformation but are there any more avenues to try to crack with this topic or are there MORE crashes, recoveries etc that offer more proof or more pieces to the puzzle?

I can try to answer some of these.

As to question 5, the general opinion seems to be that our radar systems interfered with the craft.

As to question 6, most of the descriptions I've read from witnesses seem to describe something other than the grey type of alien. Similar in shape, but different in color. I've heard pale yellow, orange or brown.

Maybe other people can help answer some of your other questions.

As to your last question, I've heard of crashes of some kind of craft that were retrieved by the military in Kecksburg, PA in 1965 and Carbondale, PA a few years later. I'm sure there are others.

[edit on 23-5-2005 by Junkheap]

[edit on 23-5-2005 by Junkheap]

If you scroll down the page their is a excellent write up on the Roswell incident. It is done in about 6 or 7 separate threads and should answer your questions.

For starters, you ask some good questions, and you might start by reading about the Roswell crash in Gazrok’s threads starting with this thread.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
1. The debris found wasn't able to be bent, cut, burnt or broken yet the debris was found in pieces scattered over a large area? So, at some point/force/pressure it is able to be broken then, has there been any further research or hypothesis on when that breaking point is?

I asked this a while back, but no one could answer it.

2. If it requires such a huge amount pressure or force to break this material, how could a body be retrieved from the crash site?

I've heard that the disc and bodies were found at a different location than the debris field. The aliens were found closer to the disc and they ejected before impact.

3. Have there been any other indications of the symbols found on the I-beams in other areas? For example, do any Crop Circles depict similar symbology, any reports from abductees of reading similar symbology? Any work done to crack the symbology from descriptions or evidence?

The only drawings of the symbols were from Jesse Marcell and his son after 30 years, but didn't match any from crop circles. You can see the drawings in Gazrok's threads.

4. Is it possible to work out roughly from known information, a level of speed/force of the impact to determine how hard this craft hit the Earth? It must of been very hard to break this material into pieces over such a wide area. Is it possible that there were 2 craft and 2 crashes or 1 craft which 'bounced' before it crashed?

There was a gouge in the field where the disc first hit, and I'm sure a study was done by the military before covering it up, but this has never been released. As far as whether there was one disc or two, is also discussed in the Roswell threads. Some researchers say only one, other say two.

5. Have there been any ideas on how the craft crashed and why?

Again, there are different theories, but most think it was experimental high power radar. But if there were two discs, could have been a midair collision.

6. Were the bodies taken basically settled upon as being the basic Grey type? Has there been any research into which Grey type this is, where they'd be from, who they'd work for? (there's a few different ones arn't there?)

I don't think I've read anything definitive on a race, but all the witnesses describe the same basic "grey" type aliens.

The other questions on other crashes you can search for, there have been many threads on this. I think there are probably other crashes, but the military had better coverup procedures in place by then, so there is not much evidence.

As to the why the crash, there is one theory that is gaining force that it was caused by a Nuke test that was done on the bikini atoll the day before.
I think that was also the premise that was used in one of the independence day sequel books.

[edit on 23-5-2005 by kenshiro2012]

The threads mentioned can be found here…

The Case for Roswell
www.abovetopsecret.com...

As for the questions….(excellent ones by the way)

1. The debris found wasn't able to be bent, cut, burnt or broken yet the debris was found in pieces scattered over a large area? So, at some point/force/pressure it is able to be broken then, has there been any further research or hypothesis on when that breaking point is? Or is there any government/scienctific slips/evidence that shows they researched this or used knowledge gained on creating better materials on Earth?

I’m sure there has, but of course, it hasn’t been made public. A general at the Pentagon is just one witness to go on record about subsequent efforts to study the material (Exon, I believe was his name, see the threads mentioned above, but the last one of the series). Also Major Corso, etc.

2. If it requires such a huge amount pressure or force to break this material, how could a body be retrieved from the crash site? Was this body or bodies meant to have been dead or alive? Whole or in part? OR where there parts to this craft that survived in tact and act similar to how a roll cage acts in a race car in which the bodies were inside meaning large pieces were salvaged that would contain technology?

The thing to remember is that there were TWO crash sites. The touchdown point was on the Foster Ranch, as discovered by Mac Brazel. The actual craft (and largely intact for the most part) was found at a second site and actually before Brazel discovered his. This is where the bodies were found. Most accounts from that recovery state that one was alive but injured, and the others were dead. Accounts vary from 4 to 5 beings total, but this could be due to what the individual witness was privy too, during the recovery.

3. Have there been any other indications of the symbols found on the I-beams in other areas? For example, do any Crop Circles depict similar symbology, any reports from abductees of reading similar symbology? Any work done to crack the symbology from descriptions or evidence?

While many different witnesses attest to the presence of symbols on the I-beams, only one (to my knowledge) has drawn a rendition of it (Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr.). You can see these in the threads mentioned btw. Any decoding efforts would not be publicly known of course. Since some of the symbols are rather simplistic, it isn’t unfathomable that crop circles might have them, but it’s a pretty loose connection (especially to those like myself, who contend that so far, the evidence is strongly in favor of pranksters only).

4. Is it possible to work out roughly from known information, a level of speed/force of the impact to determine how hard this craft hit the Earth? It must of been very hard to break this material into pieces over such a wide area. Is it possible that there were 2 craft and 2 crashes or 1 craft which 'bounced' before it crashed?

That is the 50 million dollar question isn’t it? I believe Friedman is in favor of the 2 craft theory. Myself, it seems more that the craft touched down (bounced), then crashed further away, just one craft. Since the skin of the craft was described almost as scales or tiles, and many of the debris pieces were small metallic trapezoids, the debris area actually makes sense.

5. Have there been any ideas on how the craft crashed and why? Was it shot down? Did it hit something? Was it a 'pilot' error? Was it a technical error? If it's assumed that it was a saucer shape, would that help in working out possible flaws in design that could be subject the pilots to a 'risk' factor when flying in our atmosphere? We know these UFOs can move in ways our planes can't, so why would it crash? Using what we know on fighter and other human aircraft crashes, could this info help determine how or why a saucer would crash at such a speed and force?

Mostly speculation, but many believe that early radar caused many crashes during that time period. Eventually, they seemed to develop a counter to it. Radar wasn’t in wide use at the time, but the area in question was home to some of THE most top secret stuff, so it also had the most advanced and powerful radar arrays. The leading idea is that the EM waves generated by the radars were interfering with the EM wave propogation drive used by the EBEs. Of course, cause is largely speculation. As for aliens crashing, advanced tech still doesn't mean one is immune to Murphy's Law, hehe....

6. Were the bodies taken basically settled upon as being the basic Grey type? Has there been any research into which Grey type this is, where they'd be from, who they'd work for? (there's a few different ones arn't there?)

The alien depicted in the largely debunked Alien Autopsy, at least closely resembles the beings described (just to give you a visual, not endorsing the special). Other than the number of fingers (from 4-6), almost every single witness recalls the same exact description (typical gray).

I know this crash occured over 50 years ago and it's been through a washing machine of disinformation but are there any more avenues to try to crack with this topic or are there MORE crashes, recoveries etc that offer more proof or more pieces to the puzzle?

The most recent discovery is the Ramey Memo. It tells a very different story than the weather balloon Ramey is posing with, hehe… Also, this was the FIRST such incident for the US, so there were a LOT of mistakes made. That’s where we benefit. As you mentioned though, lots of hoaxters out there trying to make money off it too (Jim Ragsdale comes to mind). There are other crashes, but by then, the government had a procedure in place, so not as much evidence.

- Is that Russian film of a saucer sticking out of the ground debunked as a fake? (looks it but i haven't looked into any real research on it)

It’s debunked for many of us. I’d check the search here at ATS, as I know I’ve seen some good threads on it (“Russian UFO crash” would be good search criteria, go back at least a year). A lot of things don’t add up, such as small size, the angle of the craft compared to the trail, and trees not knocked down, etc, just off the top of my head….

- What other famous or infamous crashes, recoveries, evidence are there in regards to craft that the government is suppose to have? I remember reading ages ago about a guy who was doing work on building a homemade saucer type engine/project years ago and apperently the government took over his work and even had him look at an engine he couldn't explain. He said he walked inside it and it seemed to be living in a sense. Wish i could find more on that one, maybe it's common knowledge amongst the better researchers here and been debunked?

That story rings a bell, but I’d have to look into it for more detail such as the name of the gentleman. As I recall, he really didn’t have a lot to go on other than his word on it… (It isn’t Lazar if that’s what some are thinking…)

Anyway, there's heaps of questions but most of them are probably answered somewhere but for the most part, i haven't found any info going further into what is already known about Roswell. Most work rather puts the puzzle together in a way that disproves the official story (which is still worthy work of course!).

The government disproves their official story with their own conflicting efforts at coverup, even an acknowledgement of the need to explain away bodies (with the rather unbelievable crash dummy story, even though done years later, and of human-like mannequins in military flight suits!) Mogul doesn’t fit the dates, nor the description of the debris (and NUMEROUS military personnel have sworn affidavits attesting to the properties of the debris). Please visit the thread I linked to in the beginning, read the parts, and some other questions may be answered, or at the very least, you might see something you didn’t see before.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Gazrok

While many different witnesses attest to the presence of symbols on the I-beams, only one (to my knowledge) has drawn a rendition of it (Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr.). You can see these in the threads mentioned btw. Any decoding efforts would not be publicly known of course. Since some of the symbols are rather simplistic, it isn’t unfathomable that crop circles might have them, but it’s a pretty loose connection (especially to those like myself, who contend that so far, the evidence is strongly in favor of pranksters only).

Gazrok,

First of all, I want to thank you for sharing so much information. I know that is not easy to research so much material with such an eye for detail, and I, along with many other posters, very much appreciate your willingness to give such well-considered and informative posts.

With that in mind, I have a question for you. What evidence (and if it is already posted somewhere and I missed it, I apologize in advance) have you come across to persuade you that pranksters are responsible for the crop circle phenomenon? The evidence I have read rather strongly points to some kind of non-human intervention. For example:

1.) The speed of the appearance of the forms; appearing overnight, and in some cases in much shorter time frames.

2.) The undamaged grains, which would seem to be exceptionally difficult to preserve by a handful of pranksters using wooden planks to flatten the plants.

3.) The allegation that some of the circles feature elaborately twined grains, a degree of effort that would seem to demand more time than the pranksters might have.

4.) The fact that the stalks continue to grow parallel to the ground after the event.

Most of these topics were brought up in Jim Marrs' "Alien Agenda" and, while I cannot testify to the validity of his research, I haven't been able to discover any information that renders any of his positions untenable. I freely admit, however, that I don't know much about the phenomena beyond Mr. Marrs' section, and that's why I'm asking for your position.

Thanks!

4. Is it possible to work out roughly from known information, a level of speed/force of the impact to determine how hard this craft hit the Earth? It must of been very hard to break this material into pieces over such a wide area. Is it possible that there were 2 craft and 2 crashes or 1 craft which 'bounced' before it crashed?

I am currently reading "Crash At Corona" and I think I read a theory somewhere that said that the craft may have exploded in midair(maybe even ladning somewhere before, maybe for repairs), spreading debris over the Brazel ranch and then continued and crashed on some plains(don't remember the name).
Note that I haven't read the whole book yet, so there may be more theories to come, the two craft theory for example.

there was a lightning storm the night before, and thats why mac brazel was out in the field, he was surveying the damage. so, 2 and 2 together...

If I might add a little personal note: I lived in Ruidoso NM, 70mi from Roswell in the 60s. We went to Roswell to party because to us it was "The City". Of the locals I met, not one believed in the weatherballon,crash test dummies, other Air Force stories. To the people I met; it was a real alien crash but recovered alien bodies was up for debate.
I was a skeptic about it until I talked to an oldtimer that convinced me it was an actual event.

If I might add a little personal note: I lived in Ruidoso NM, 70mi from Roswell in the 60s. We went to Roswell to party because to us it was "The City". Of the locals I met, not one believed in the weatherballon,crash test dummies, other Air Force stories. To the people I met; it was a real alien crash but recovered alien bodies was up for debate.
I was a skeptic about it until I talked to an oldtimer that convinced me it was an actual event.

"4. Is it possible to work out roughly from known information, a level of speed/force of the impact to determine how hard this craft hit the Earth?" == TheShroudOfMemphis

Apology for being so selective of the questions, but the first part of question 4 is the only one I see which has validity. The rest of your questions
are too difficult for me to find validation. (I did not say incorrect, but rather they are based upon assumptions which are not easily validated.)

I think the example of the one person I have seen who has done this work from known information is very instructive.
His name : Charles Moore. You can read more about him from one of Gazrok's posts, here :

www.abovetopsecret.com...

(Question for Gazrok. In your compilation of Roswell, why did you leave the above ref. out? )

To save a lot of reading, Gazrok in the above thread points you to:

roswellproof.homestead.com...

and again in Roswell Part 1 he points to :

www.csicop.org...

which is a Skeptic site. The point I am making is that if you are capable of answering question 4 and you do so,
then the answer better not be unacceptable to believers or they will be ugly on the attack. Worse in my opinion than
the believers say they get attacked.

Here is a sample of how Charles Moore is delt with by believers :

roswellproof.homestead.com...

Note how the above discussion is all about "math" errors and ignores Charles Moore implications that
he worked backwards from the landing zone to see what has to be done to allow for the possibility of Mogul 4 going down there.
I personally am curious about Charles Moore's statements about the debris in the Ramey photo (Gazrok - Part I). If he was
certain that was Mogul debris, and not a "weather baloon", then the most impossible thing for me to believe is that it was flown
to Ft Worth FROM ANYWHERE, except Roswell ?? (Apology, I got off topic - this is where the "cover-up" crowd go wrong)

Side note:
Quote Gazrok: "The thing to remember is that there were TWO crash sites."

I am willing to wager that in the near future, there will be THREE crash sites.

Cant resist, quote Gazrok again. (But with respect. I like most of your research but I think your spin is wrong.)

"The government disproves their official story with their own conflicting efforts at coverup, even an
acknowledgement of the need to explain away bodies (with the rather unbelievable crash dummy story,
even though done years later, and of human-like mannequins in military flight suits!) Mogul doesn’t
fit the dates, nor the description of the debris (and NUMEROUS military personnel have sworn affidavits attesting to the properties of the debris). "

You are aware that the USAF did not release an official story as a cover up effort? They were actually answering a Congressional inquiry. Congressman Schiff if I recall correctly.
When you answer such an inquiry, there are rules. If asked about bodies, they MUST answer, according to the rules. Heresay is the perview of UFOlogists. The military can't do that.
In short, the military had to say what specific, factual programs they were doing that might have caused the question to arise, nothing more, nothing less. To assume otherwise is spin.

As far as "sworn affidavits" go, its BELOW a witness testimony in court because there is no cross-examination and penality for perjury. Bring the guy who swore it on the stand
and my money is on a total discredit in court. In many foreign jurisdictions, they still put wax or metallic paper seals and dangling ribbons to dress up affidavit testimony.
It looks official, therefore it must be true, right? In most American practice now, those frills have been replaced with a simple inkstamp from a notary public, who almost never
will have actually sworn the affiant to tell the truth. (Hence, no penalty?)

Apology to TheShroudOfMemphis, it seems like I got way off topic, as I forgot how to link testimony to your questions.
(actually, I didnt, but I just noticed the length of this post. Its too long already.)

I'll state that I am no expert on crop circles. I've seen numerous specials showing exactly how con-men can produce amazing examples in just a couple of hours, and with rudimentary tools, answering nearly all of the questions put forth. The often terrestrial symbols, etc. used in the designs are further indicative of a human source for these. To me, the evidence for an extraterrestrial connection was simply never strong enough to warrant further investigation...

As for Moore, I didn't mention the post as it was done after completing the Roswell series.... Moore's points can be shown to be irrelevant without the sighting, and it's more of an aside really.

Sworn testimony may not be a smoking gun, but it is the best we can do without a full blown trial, and it's far and above just heresay. Also, it's the sheer bulk of such testimony that is the real evidence in this, in addition to the military's own actions, which are, I think anyone will admit, highly out of the ordinary for a simple Mogul recovery.

Moore's comments on the debris in Ramey's office are irrelevant, as every man involved there (Dubose, Marcel, etc., with the exception of Ramey) states that the debris in the pics is NOT what they got from Roswell...and that it was a coverup. The memo in Ramey's very hands also implies this... BTW-you're forgetting the possibility that the balloon debris in the office might not have been flown there at all, it might have easily already been at Ft. Worth from a previous Mogul or other recovery, and then decided to be used as a scapegoat just out of convenience.

Also, the timetable is wrong for a Mogul recovery. Odd too, that this tape claimed by the skeptics, has NEVER been produced, just spoken of. If UFOlogists tried to use the same unsubstantiated claim, they'd be raked over the coals. Of course, the tape is likewise pointless, as it fails to explain how SO many people could fail to identify the rather ordinary materials of balsa wood and tin foil... The debris was described identically by independent witnesses, and exhibited qualities totally unlike that of which Mogul was comprised of.

As for the bodies answer by the USAF, yes they HAD to address it, but they weren't forced to make the paper ALL about the bodies. They could have easily dismissed the bodies as an answer also...citing psychological studies, etc. to reinforce their continued stance that such reports were hallucinations...

As for the two crash sites, I too was skeptical of this, until fully investigating it. However, there is an abundance of evidence that supports it. First, it was the witness testimony showing where the cordons were and when...then the testimony about the flights of the debris, the condition of the craft vs the debris field Brazel found later, etc. Finally, there is then the Ramey memo itself, also citing two distinct sites. The other nail in the coffin is the military press release of a captured disk. Only small debris was recovered from Brazel's site...so it implies they already had the disk and initially decided to come clean before hushing it up.

I'll state that I am no expert on crop circles. I've seen numerous specials showing exactly how con-men can produce amazing examples in just a couple of hours, and with rudimentary tools, answering nearly all of the questions put forth. The often terrestrial symbols, etc. used in the designs are further indicative of a human source for these. To me, the evidence for an extraterrestrial connection was simply never strong enough to warrant further investigation...

I'll admit that I also belive most crop circles(at least the most recent ones) are hoaxes, but don't they sometimes find cropcirles with traces of radiation, and other "unexplainable" things?

I think that the ufo probably over shot a runway somewhere. Probably a naval pilot!

Originally posted by Phood

I'll state that I am no expert on crop circles. I've seen numerous specials showing exactly how con-men can produce amazing examples in just a couple of hours, and with rudimentary tools, answering nearly all of the questions put forth. The often terrestrial symbols, etc. used in the designs are further indicative of a human source for these. To me, the evidence for an extraterrestrial connection was simply never strong enough to warrant further investigation...

I'll admit that I also belive most crop circles(at least the most recent ones) are hoaxes, but don't they sometimes find cropcirles with traces of
radiation, and other "unexplainable" things?

Sure do. Expolsion cavities (indicating microwaves), iron particles, and lots of other strange stuff. 99% are hoaxes though.

Alright I was wondering if anybody knows any real, closest footage ever of a UFO and/or E.T. cause I'm sick of seeing things like little white balls in the sky and stuff. Just want something actually interesting to see.

Well, for sheer entertainment, there was a Fox special (shortly after the alien autopsy one) about a rural family close encounter (I think it might have been loosely based on the Kecksburg case)....can't recall the name of it though....off the top of my head.