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Jesus & Sons - A family business since AD36

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posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 09:35 PM
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I beleive we have been argueing at cross purposes...

Let me then say, for the record, that I have never at any time sought to suggest that God had a tribal background.




posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 05:59 AM
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I beleive we have been argueing at cross purposes...

Let me then say, for the record, that I have never at any time sought to suggest that God had a tribal background.


Fair enough.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 05:39 PM
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does no one question why people don't practice religions such as the acient greek gods or the gods that the egyptians worshipped. many, many ancient religions have come and gone, fact. each of the religions around the world today claim their books are devine and inspired by god/s. what is so special about christians, jews, muslims, hindus, buddhas...are they so special that they will not also follow the same path as the greek and egyptian gods? after all those egyptians and greeks alive in that time believed their gods were real. you believe your christian god is real, or the jewish god is real, or allah is real. face the 'FACTS'...religion has come and gone in the passed and will do so in the future.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 07:56 PM
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you believe your christian god is real, or the jewish god is real, or allah is real.


I'll write a longer post later but the G-d of Abraham and Allah are the same and that's coming from a Jew.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 12:01 AM
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The Arabs hence Muslims are the Sons of Ishmael, descendants of Abraham and his maid Hagar, who had a child when Abrahams wife Sarah was barren...

When Sarah conceived Abraham banished Hagar and child into the desert, where God provided for them, and ther've had a beef with the Jews ever since...



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:09 AM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

you believe your christian god is real, or the jewish god is real, or allah is real.


I'll write a longer post later but the G-d of Abraham and Allah are the same and that's coming from a Jew.


that wasn't really the main point of what i was writing, although you have made my point that the religions today are nothing special if they are not only borrowing legends, myths but also each other's gods. like i said...why do millions not still believe in the greek gods, because they did some thousands of years ago, but it seemed to die out. what's so f**king special and different about the religions we have today that they won't do the same in another few thousand years. lets face it christianity is young, only 1500 years or so and has grown rapidly, yet can also be reversed just as rapidly.

if the spiritual sides of religion were real then there would only be one religion. if one of these religions today is the one, then surely that means everyone else is lying. lets say for example the muslims are right. does that mean all christians, buddhas, jews, hindus are lying about when they've seen god, have a relationship with him, or felt him in some way, all that faith healing stuff. not lying. but what it comes down to would be that those people wanted to believe so much that they made themselves do so. some people have a need for god, or a need for there to be something more.

thousands of years ago people didnt really understand religion a whole great deal. people were mostly illiterate and couldnt read what the bible and other holy scriptures had to offer. however, now people can they take it upon themselves to believe it all to be inspired by god. most religious people are so quick to dismiss evolution, without looking at the evidence, of which is still going on today...evolution didn't just happen millions of years ago...its a fact today as well. yet they believe some 40 different books thrown together and legends and myths is somehow 'god-inspired' or in some places the words of god...that's a lot of trust to place...i guess that's why the call it faith.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:10 AM
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that wasn't really the main point of what i was writing, although you have made my point that the religions today are nothing special if they are not only borrowing legends, myths but also each other's gods.


Religion is man made which makes it a little lackluster. Being a Jew, I have absolutely no problem with anything being borrowed. I take what I have learned from religion to further establish my relationship. My every ounce of being isn't hung up on any of it. If it's not real, then I've lost nothing because overall I have learned a better way of living and more structured. I know the roots to the creation, flood, etc stories. It's not a secret to us because it's right there in our Torah commentary. Most Christians that I know don't accept that as truth because of course, they are right even though their entire foundation is supposed to be from Judaism. I suppose it more or less comes down to "Well if this isn't real, then how can I believe anything else" and that would include the stories and all proof texting about Jesus.


like i said...why do millions not still believe in the greek gods, because they did some thousands of years ago, but it seemed to die out.


As for the Greek gods, I have no clue why they aren't worshipped. My husband and I were talking not too long ago about how the Greek system actually makes sense to establish a different god for each aspect. Like Hinduism, those different aspects could essentially be a manifestation of one.


what's so f**king special and different about the religions we have today that they won't do the same in another few thousand years.


Being a Jew, I know there are more gods. It's plain to see in the Tanakh. As for what's special about Judaism, I can tell you why it's special to me. I can tell you why Christianity wasn't special for me but is for my family. But I can't answer for everyone else. I think for born agains, their glory lies in death so they are just hanging out and waiting. It reminds me of the movie Ladykillers where Mrs. Munson is sitting there talking to the painting of her husband and says something to the effect of she hopes to go to sleep and wake up in the glory land. The look on her face as she's talking is almost euphoric. I see that look on the face of my grandma when she talks about dying and meeting Jesus. I truly hope for her sake that she's not disappointed.


lets face it christianity is young, only 1500 years or so and has grown rapidly, yet can also be reversed just as rapidly.


It will when they get sucked up.


if the spiritual sides of religion were real then there would only be one religion.


Religion is man made so why would there only be one? Do we humans all fit in the same size clothing? We can't expect to fit in the same size G-d either or even a god at all.


if one of these religions today is the one, then surely that means everyone else is lying.


There is only one group that really harps on theirs being the only way and they even deny people within their own group.


lets say for example the muslims are right. does that mean all christians, buddhas, jews, hindus are lying about when they've seen god, have a relationship with him, or felt him in some way, all that faith healing stuff. not lying. but what it comes down to would be that those people wanted to believe so much that they made themselves do so. some people have a need for god, or a need for there to be something more.


In my opinion, no one is wrong. I believe that G-d has made provisions to draw people in. That would mean that Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Osiris, Muhammad, etc were for a specific group of people who needed something different. I have some atheist friends who are extremely moral people. I see them as needing less than say even me. I see my Baptist relatives as needing more than me. The other day my friend was telling me about a book she was reading by Billy Graham's son. She was regurgitating his part about how Christians are the only one's persecuted for telling about their faith. He mentioned that people often stand to give a testimony about how Buddha helped their lives but that when he mentions Jesus, immediate persecution. I told her that Buddha wouldn't help anyone as he is not a deity and that only BACs get the brunt of it because they tell everyone that their religion is right one for everyone instead of listening to the message from the rest of the world and that is that the religion of choice is the right religion for the individual.


thousands of years ago people didnt really understand religion a whole great deal. people were mostly illiterate and couldnt read what the bible and other holy scriptures had to offer. however, now people can they take it upon themselves to believe it all to be inspired by god. most religious people are so quick to dismiss evolution, without looking at the evidence, of which is still going on today...evolution didn't just happen millions of years ago...its a fact today as well. yet they believe some 40 different books thrown together and legends and myths is somehow 'god-inspired' or in some places the words of god...that's a lot of trust to place...i guess that's why the call it faith.


These "40 books" thrown together tell nothing about science. I don't know many Christians who accept evolution as it doesn't coincide with the story of creation. What seems to be missed is that the story is just that, a story. It's a beginning. It's not "the" beginning. Biblically speaking, there was no "calendar" for man until Exodus 12 which is why we see such distortions of the age in which people lived. In the beginning of our Torah used in service, there is a synopsis in the beginning. So in the front of Genesis, it basically says that evolution does not conflict with our beliefs. Evolution was one of the first things to steer me away from fundamental Christianity. I was not allowed to learn about it in school and I was home schooled for high school with a Christian based curriculum so needless to say, I knew nothing about evolution except what I would hear the others talk about. At 22, I heard it in depth for the very first time and decided to research it more. I did and found that it seriously conflicted with my religion (it wasn't a relationship then but a forced religion). My religion professor told me that he allows science to tell him how and G-d to tell him why. That is how he reconciled the differences. I took that mindset and ran with it. My friend that I spoke about above tried to convince me that Darwin recanted on his deathbed so therefore it's not real. Galileo did recant and that didn't change our earth being on an axis and rotating. Newton could recant and that doesn't change gravity or calculus. Watson and Crick could recant but that doesn't change DNA. Those things aren't taken into consideration when they (including her) make their pitiful arguments. What is just is and uttering some words doesn't change that.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430
Religion is man made which makes it a little lackluster. Being a Jew, I have absolutely no problem with anything being borrowed. I take what I have learned from religion to further establish my relationship. My every ounce of being isn't hung up on any of it. If it's not real, then I've lost nothing because overall I have learned a better way of living and more structured.


that response seems as though 'even though religions aren't ''actually'' real it's still o.k to believe and tell people you believe because you're leading a better life'. that's maybe not what you meant but that's how it came across. i think that's exactly what religion has become. even though i can still lead a good life without religion...some people can't.

there's a program on channel 4 in england at the moment called 'spiritual shopper'. basically different people on the show try and find a religion to help them with their day to day life and problems. to me this is all religion has become, more of a way of life rather than the bible being inspired by god etc. from the last two popes you can see this very clearly. as they don't agree with homosexuals, or same sex marriage etc etc...it's just trying to build an orderly society. however, i don't believe that's the right way to go about it.

you said yourself religion is man made, parts borrowed from here, there and everywhere, yet you still believe you're going somewhere other than the worm farm when you die. you also said you're not bothered by there being so many other religions, after all not everyone fits in to the same size t-shirt. but all of them also believe they're going somewhere other than the bacteria fest when they die.

and why do you and others feel that the only reason you're living life to a good standered is because of your religion? could you not do it on your own? is it the 10 commandments that are keeping you inline...if so then why not just follow the laws that govern us anyway...why do you need some book, or some pretend god, or relationship with some spiritual being to be leading a good life? lets face facts religions aren't what they were 1500 years ago, back then people believed them word for word and that they were going to heaven. however, religions have changed to keep up with how people have changed...there's no heaven or real gods or after life...it's just a better way to live your life...as you said. it's about time people stood on their own two feet though.

im so sick of this religious bulls**t. i do have a general hatred towards it especially in cases when people try and prove to me that faith healing is real, even though the power of prayer might give someone hope it will not cure an 8 year old kid who has diabetes. honour killings. f**king johova's on my door trying to recruit me. leaflets about god and how you can come to church and learn about him and s**t like that.

pesonally if religions were just like 'life coaching' helping you to lead a better life then i probably wouldn't care. it's just all that god inspired bible nonsense that gets to me and all the other stuff that plain and simply isn't true. i know it, you know it. that's why your excuse for being religious is to lead a better life, so you don't sound stupid trying to argue the fact that there's a god and heaven and that. the world would be a better place without religion.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 08:13 AM
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that response seems as though 'even though religions aren't ''actually'' real it's still o.k to believe and tell people you believe because you're leading a better life'. that's maybe not what you meant but that's how it came across. i think that's exactly what religion has become. even though i can still lead a good life without religion...some people can't.


I already stated that I don't think everyone needs religion. Let me try to explain it a different way. I think there is a base which will be the self. Some people need more than themselves so they add G-d (or whatever they choose to call him/her). Some people need more than G-d so they add texts. Some people rely on those texts more than others. Some people need more to the book. Then some people need even more to the book. The list could go on and branch a bajillion different ways but to me, it's more of levels that the individual needs. I do not believe that anyone is wrong including those who are atheists, etc. Religion is man's way of achieving their level of necessity so that man can establish his relationship with G-d. Judaism teaches me the basics on how to worship G-d. It's up to me to establish my relationship with G-d. Also what I meant by real was not G-d, but the stories in the Bible. If Jacob, Abraham, Sarah, etc never lived, it doesn't change anything for me. If Jacob lived and really didn't wrestle and angel, it makes no difference. My relationship with G-d is not tied up in words. It's based on my actions.


there's a program on channel 4 in england at the moment called 'spiritual shopper'. basically different people on the show try and find a religion to help them with their day to day life and problems. to me this is all religion has become, more of a way of life rather than the bible being inspired by god etc. from the last two popes you can see this very clearly. as they don't agree with homosexuals, or same sex marriage etc etc...it's just trying to build an orderly society. however, i don't believe that's the right way to go about it.


I'm really not sure what to think of the show but whatever helps. But religion SHOULD be a way of life. I'll stick to the three...Judaism, Christianity, Islam. The difference between Judaism/Islam and Christianity is that the Jews and Muslims do have their religion spill over into everything. Days of work are dictated, ways to eat, ways to dress, ways to cook, ways to pray, etc. It's not all out winging it. We are structured. Some Christians have that too but there are those who live in the glory of the afterlife that stick with being saved, doing whatever they want, and Jesus will still have them. As for the Popes and their thoughts, I think that it goes to show how much Christians want their religions to fit all. As a Jew, we are taught that only male homosexuals are what the Tanakh talks about. We know that G-d gave us free will and that the choice is up to the individual. We are taught how to make reparations for our sins and we still love and accept those. It's an individual choice that should be left to G-d to deal with the individual if he truly thinks it's an abomination. It's not my place to say that it's wrong or judge anyone for it.


you said yourself religion is man made, parts borrowed from here, there and everywhere, yet you still believe you're going somewhere other than the worm farm when you die. you also said you're not bothered by there being so many other religions, after all not everyone fits in to the same size t-shirt. but all of them also believe they're going somewhere other than the bacteria fest when they die.


You're putting words in my mouth. I have no preconceived notion of an afterlife or what it will be. No Jew does. Our focus is daily life and that IF there is an afterlife, G-d will make provisions for everyone.


and why do you and others feel that the only reason you're living life to a good standered is because of your religion? could you not do it on your own? is it the 10 commandments that are keeping you inline...if so then why not just follow the laws that govern us anyway...why do you need some book, or some pretend god, or relationship with some spiritual being to be leading a good life? lets face facts religions aren't what they were 1500 years ago, back then people believed them word for word and that they were going to heaven. however, religions have changed to keep up with how people have changed...there's no heaven or real gods or after life...it's just a better way to live your life...as you said. it's about time people stood on their own two feet though.


I stand on my own two feet. I can't speak for others but I will answer the questions for me. My religion dictates for me how to live. It's not the Ten Commandments because Jews have 603 more than those 10. I live by the Jewish laws that apply to me as well as those that govern me. I obviously don't need a book to live by as I have already stated that I could care not if the book is actually true. There is a difference between experience and belief and I have experienced. Everywhere I look, I see G-d. When I see my children's faces, I see G-d. When my husband says I love you, I hear G-d. G-d is everything and everything is G-d. I don't believe in heaven, hell, etc. That's not a part of our lives. As a matter of fact, my kids are away at camp. I was just outside about an hour ago and three neighborhood kids came over to invite my kids to Vacation Bible School. I told them that they were not here (and yes I would let them go because I want my kids to choose their own path) but we talked further. Do you know why my kids were invited? Because my oldest son wrote a story about Satan coming back to life. I laughed a little because I know how my son believes and Satan is not real to him. But he freaked these kids out. In carpool not too long ago, my little girl was talking about going to shul. One of the other kids corrected her and said it's a church. She said that we're Jewish so it's a shul and the little boy says, "Oh well you're going to hell." Religious intolerance is probably the biggest problem overall. Anti-religion or anti-other religions is what keeps people apart.


im so sick of this religious bulls**t. i do have a general hatred towards it especially in cases when people try and prove to me that faith healing is real, even though the power of prayer might give someone hope it will not cure an 8 year old kid who has diabetes. honour killings. f**king johova's on my door trying to recruit me. leaflets about god and how you can come to church and learn about him and s**t like that.


I agree on all of it. I hate people knocking on my door. I've been marked by the Mormons and I know they won't come back after the last time. It ended with one of them screaming at me. But faith healing, boy oh boy. I know a lady who has a child with cancer. A BAC told her that her sin is what caused her child to have cancer. Now if that isn't crap I don't know what is. Original sin and the sin of the parents brought all of this on for this child. What kind of G-d is that? Not one that I want to be affiliated with! I totally understand how people get turned off. Cramming is not the way to do it and preaching hate isn't either. People have to want it on their own.


pesonally if religions were just like 'life coaching' helping you to lead a better life then i probably wouldn't care. it's just all that god inspired bible nonsense that gets to me and all the other stuff that plain and simply isn't true. i know it, you know it. that's why your excuse for being religious is to lead a better life, so you don't sound stupid trying to argue the fact that there's a god and heaven and that. the world would be a better place without religion.


You misunderstand my faith and seem to have placed me in a category that I don't belong in. As stated above, I do believe in G-d. I do not believe in heaven. The only part of the "Bible" that I use is the Tanakh...a.k.a. Old Testament. The only part we use in service and daily life is the Torah. All of it was written by man and therefore can only be written to the best of their ability and understanding. That's why I do not place major emphasis on it, meanings, etc except for the Torah. I don't make excuses for my religion. I am in it by choice. I was raised Southern Baptist...my excuse, I was forced. It was my mother's religion so my choices were limited. Even then, I thought outside the box. Now I am the family heretic because I don't believe in heaven, hell, Satan, etc. I live to live now and not live to die. My glory is here and is found through me.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 06:01 AM
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I do not understand why so many theists balk when I relate accounts of miraculous events occuring. They reject the possibility with vigour. Why? Shouldn't those who claim to believe in a Spiritual aspect to reality be more accepting of these reports? I am a firm, firm believer in Spirit. Belief that is mislabelled by calling it belief, because I am convinced, to about the same degree that I 'believe' I am a male. I have very little doubt that miracles do take place, but I admit it took many many experiences over decades for me to sit up and take notice.... over about 34 years of my life I shrugged off literally dozens of inexplicable happenings and just thought of them as 'neat'. It is not how I view them now, now they are awesome, and inspiring, and, in my world, real.
The power of prayer, angels watching over us, miracles, and magic, these are things I now accept. And the idea that we are all one on some level, connected by some spiritual bond, united through God in a way, is my belief as well.
The patriarch Abraham fathered three world faiths out of many, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. These three faiths should be like brothers, instead they are enemies. It is not likely that all the other great faiths will come together with them when they can't even respect each other even though they share the same patriarch. How do we expect Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, etc. to all stop their petty bickering over pedantics, ritual, and dogma, and join together as one spirit family, when the three Abrahamic religions are so divided?
I see God as reflecting a different image to different people. God appears different to different cultures so that they will understand what the message of love is, just like different climates require different attire.
One love, one heart........One God. Let's get together and feel allright.
What is so offensive about believing in magic? I always face scoffing, chuckling, self-assured derision from atheists, when I recount my experiences. they do not believe me, fine, but I really disapprove of the superiority play that they perform, joking and sneering that only fools would believe in magic. I am ecstatic to be a fool then.



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