Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Trinityman
As you probably appreciate, freemasonry doesn't have its own 'spirituality' in this context; it relies of the spirituality of the member's pre-existing beliefs.

Good start, what DOES Masonry advocate?

I'd like to know why all of the "eyeballs" are necessary. For example, if I come in as a Catholic with no previous "eyeball" "spirituality", what would that mean to me?

I guess that the great or grand archicect or so forth sees all. But why is any of that necessary if the organization isn't a religion. It seems to me that laying (both literally or metaphorically) all "holy" books of various religions (including "dark" religions) in a show of equality IS a religious act that is NOT inherent in those religions OUTSIDE of masonry. So for me this sounds like a religious belief found in masonry that not only ENCOMPASSES recognized religions (most of which seem to point to a "god" of some sort) but that then BUILDS a religion around them.

I can think of all kinds of non-religious groups and none of them lay Bibles and Korans (potentially) side by side on an altar and require initiates to kneel before it in oath. Nothing against masons, but does anyone really wonder why various denominations and sects don't sanctify joining freemasonry?

It's like putting two opposing astronomical theories side by side and saying, "Hey, it's all space to us." Which is then sort of a theory all it's own.


[edit on 25-10-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Trinityman
As you probably appreciate, freemasonry doesn't have its own 'spirituality' in this context; it relies of the spirituality of the member's pre-existing beliefs.

Good start, what DOES Masonry advocate?

I think it can be summed up by saying this: Freemasonry admonishes us to study, understand, and live by our own faith; whatever that faith might have been before becoming a Mason. It makes no attempt to convert or otherwise sway a man's pre-existing beliefs. It can reasonably be said that the study of other faiths is encouraged, unofficially, merely to understand the philosophies and tenets or practices of other faiths than your own... most people would actually be quite surprised to see all the similarities between the main religions of the world.

Masonry instructs us that the VSL (that is the bible for Christians, BTW ) should be our guide in faith and practice; i.e. that we should live by the precepts of our Holy Book. Be it the Bible, the Q'uran, whatever... Freemasonry as an institution doesn't care, so long as you belive that your god is the Creator.

I'm starting to have trouble thinking up new ways to say the same thing.

[edit on 10/25/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
I'd like to know why all of the "eyeballs" are necessary. For example, if I come in as a Catholic with no previous "eyeball" "spirituality", what would that mean to me?

I guess that the great or grand archicect or so forth sees all. But why is any of that necessary if the organization isn't a religion.

It's just a symbol.

It reminds us that God is ever watchful and that nothing we say, think or do escapes His sight.

I don't usderstand what people think is so wrong with symbols that serve as reminders.

The purpose of the degrees is to make an impression on the candidate, and to hopefully get him started seeking out knowledge for himself.

Honestly people, I've been reading and posting on this board for a long time, and I still don't get why people are so hell-bent on casting labels upon Freemasonry. It's a fraternity, not a religion.

It's not a hard concept to grasp, seriously.

Axeman, there was more to my post. How is THAT which I described (the rest of my post) not representative of a religion or a religious act? At the very least it is a statement of "religious equality" that is unnecessary in a so-called "non-religious" organization. To say it isn't a religion is a semantic game of quasi-linguistical huff and puff.

Seriously though, you know I'm serious about my question as we've met before. Why is the R-word so bad? You're already lighting candles and wearing robes and performing rituals and so on.

Don't lump me in with all "people". You know I never said symbols were wrong or that anything else was wrong. The sum of my post was more than the parts and you only addressed a part of the equation. X is X and Y is Y. So what is Z? How is Z NOT a RELIGION?


[edit on 25-10-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Axeman, there was more to my post. How is THAT which I described (the rest of my post) not representative of a religion or a religious act? At the very least it is a statement of "religious equality" that is unnecessary in a non-religious organization. To say it isn't a religion is a semantic game of quasi-linguistical huff and puff.

Seriously though, you know I'm serious about my question. Why is the R-word so bad?

It's not that it's bad; it's just that it's not accurate.

Masonry does not teach belief in any one religion, nor does it teach unbelief in any religion. Its teachings are dependent upon the belief in a Creator; nothing more.

It seems to me that laying (both literally or metaphorically) all "holy" books of various religions (including "dark" religions) in a show of equality IS a religious act that is NOT inherent in those religions OUTSIDE of masonry. So for me this sounds like a religious belief found in masonry that not only ENCOMPASSES recognized religions (most of which seem to point to a "god" of some sort) but that then BUILDS a religion around them.

But the religious aspect of Freemasonry is left solely to the discretion of the Brother. Masonry in no way pushes or advocates any one religion over another. We simply don't care what religion a man practices, so long as we have the belief in a Creative Force or Being in common. Not even that it has to be the same Being, only that the man believes his Diety to be the Creator of all things.

I can think of all kinds of non-religious groups and none of them lay Bibles and Korans (potentially) side by side on an altar and require initiates to kneel before it in oath. Nothing against masons, but does anyone really wonder why various denominations and sects don't sanctify joining freemasonry?

What about Judges? Lawyers, doctors, witnesses in court, presidents and all other manner of public offices... they all take oaths upon the Holy Bible, so what's the difference?

BTW, they are never side by side; whichever the candidate takes as his Holy Writings will be on the altar. Never two at once, as far as I know.

The reason that some religious bodies denounce Masonry could vary greatly form one to another. Some people just believe it goes against their faith, and that is fine. Your duty is first to God, so if a man really had reservations about joining the fraternity because of religious conflict, I for one would advise him not to join. Your duties to God, your country, your family and yourself comes before your duty to Masonry. Period.

Masonry is not for everyone. If it's for you, it will be. If it's not, it won't be.

Simple.

[edit on 10/25/05 by The Axeman]

(read with stoner surf voice, its better)

hey duuuudes!

because i graduated copy paste debate class like a long time ago, im just not gonna do the tit for tat session with my friend axeman.

uh... he like made a dumb choice to join up with the masons.. i mean - i know theyre all friendly etc... but ...uh .... i dont know what im talking about..

wait wait, check this out:

booyaa!!! omg im so effin cool. did you guys see how i made that empty statement about nothing and i still win. oh yeah! (doing the chicken-dance)

(ok, you can kill the stoner voice)

ok, for those of you who cant make it in the world without membering yourself to an exclusive males club, go on - join the masons. they really are nice guys. just know that you're stepping onto a path to which the end is not in sight. not even formidable. heck, if youre just in for some free food and beer, theyll throw a killer barbecue for ya. have fun being a pawn though.

both sides of this argument will emplore you to do your own research, and make an educated decision. when that you reach that moment - and you still feel like you want to join up - ask yourself one question in complete honesty;

Is your reason genuine selflessness, or selfishness? -there the answer lies.

ps. ASE clearly articulated all the undertowing MORAL problems about freemasonry on page one..

I'll leave it to you Axe, go on -chop it up. muah.

Originally posted by lost
because i graduated copy paste debate class like a long time ago, im just not gonna do the tit for tat session with my friend axeman.

You're free to think what you like. I'm not going to discuss it with you anmore because you obviously have your mind made up. Good for you, duuuuuuude.

But who's copying and pasting? Anything I quote is in quote boxes, sources given. Eveything else is all me, baby.

Sorry if you have to copy and paste to debate...

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
[...]
Seriously though, you know I'm serious about my question. Why is the R-word so bad?

It's not that it's bad; it's just that it's not accurate.

Masonry does not teach belief in any one religion, nor does it teach unbelief in any religion. Its teachings are dependent upon the belief in a Creator; nothing more.

Exactly. You must believe in a (C)creator for the (hypothetically speaking) religion of masonry which BUILDS upon the acknowledgement of a creator with lessons of a philosophical, scientific, astronomical, or esoteric nature known only to (B)brothers i.e. (hypothetically speaking) members of the church.

It seems to me that laying (both literally or metaphorically) all "holy" books of various religions (including "dark" religions) in a show of equality IS a religious act that is NOT inherent in those religions OUTSIDE of masonry. So for me this sounds like a religious belief found in masonry that not only ENCOMPASSES recognized religions (most of which seem to point to a "god" of some sort) but that then BUILDS a religion around them.

But the religious aspect of Freemasonry is left solely to the discretion of the Brother. Masonry in no way pushes or advocates any one religion over another. We simply don't care what religion a man practices, so long as we have the belief in a Creative Force or Being in common. Not even that it has to be the same Being, only that the man believes his Diety to be the Creator of all things.

Exactly. It is a (hypothetically speaking) religion that accepts all other religions under the guise of equality. I'm no crusader, but if the guy next to me thinks everyone born on Earth is born under a dark overloard, and we both look to the same Eyeball on the (L)lodge wall, then what are we in attendance of exactly?

I can think of all kinds of non-religious groups and none of them lay Bibles and Korans (potentially) side by side on an altar and require initiates to kneel before it in oath. Nothing against masons, but does anyone really wonder why various denominations and sects don't sanctify joining freemasonry?

What about Judges? Lawyers, doctors, witnesses in court, presidents and all other manner of public offices... they all take oaths upon the Holy Bible, so what's the difference?

What about them? Of course those oaths are different animals. Are you telling me that all oaths are the same REGARDLESS of context? If so, then maybe (hypothetically speaking) masons will start initiating (B)brothers in open court so we can all benefit from the rituals. Of course they are different.

BTW, they are never side by side; whichever the candidate takes as his Holy Writings will be on the altar. Never two at once, as far as I know.

I've read there can be more than one book on the altar but most likely just the one belonging to most members in attendance (which isn't all that different as far as my general idea goes since the metaphorical idea is always in play). I don't know if it is different during an initiation ceramony. At the least, the initiate would address the book of his choice.

The reason that some religious bodies denounce Masonry could vary greatly form one to another. Some people just believe it goes against their faith, [...]

That is precisely what I said. Many religions probably don't want to see members placing their book on a "secular" altar and bow before it, etc. which are acts that the religions might find objectionable. There could be other reasons, but I'd guess most of it lies within the structure of the meetings including initiations and other ceremonies.

But Axeman, you haven't said how masonry IS NOT a religion. No disrepect to you, but you have only done what is done frequently on this board. You have dissected my post with instances of agreement and disagreement yet without answering the overall question.

Sleep on it (because my white pills (perfectly legal) are about to kick in and COast to Coast is on) and in your own words just tell me how masonry IS NOT a religion FOR YOU. I'm curious what you think and know on this idea.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Yes i must insist too i am a crestin and i never ever saw piramids suns and eye balls in a crestin church.
But i did see them on the dolar bill.
One that sustains that he go's there and religion is really just of what he learned on the out side is simply a ferytail.
Show me any cristian church that has the eye and the piramid has a simbol of god.
You wont see that simply cause it does not represent god.
You got older religions way old than the masonari brotherhood and none of them have the piramid and the eye.
It is simply not present for the simple fact that the eye and the piramid comes from egipt from horis the god of the underworld.
Read the enciclopedia.

I got them this time no reply no nothing .

They quote "we only have what we learn on the out side has a religion

I guess you cant find piramids and eyes in a crestin church and suns painted on the walls of churches

The eye stuff it thot there has a religios simbol how simple is that hahaha

See why i think they are being secret

Maybe its because people have to believe in something. Believing that masonary teachings will make them better people , I just can not see it when others are bashed and ridiculed to the point of showing the masons true colors. More power to you , those who believe as you are free to believe in what you want. Others have read what its all about and others have left the masonic life for better and more greater things. But to say yours is greater than itself is like saying no one knows more than you. As you may or not know , there will always be someone smarter than you or I for that matter.Anyway go on believing as it is your right , and mine to believe otherwise.Many Blessings

[edit on 10/25/2005 by zman]

Originally posted by TxSecret


I say this in good spirit but if I were you guys, and if you REALLY want to better yourselves and help others, I would do it through a good Bible based, FULL gospel church.

What exactly is a "FULL gospel church", and what is the difference between this church and others? I'm not being pretentious here, I'm just not sure what you mean.

I mean really,, why masonry and not Church?

Why do you assume that Masons are not involved and active in their churches? In case you unaware, most Masons are very active churchmen. Many are clergymen, while others are deacons, assistant lay ministers, etc.

My next question of all of you.. Why become a mason when you can join a Church?

That's like asking "Why join the Book of the Month Club when you can join a church?" They are two completely different things, and as mentioned, most Masons (actually, every Mason I personally know without exception) is a member of some church or synagogue. Being a member of a church has nothing to do with one's desire to join a fraternal organization.

I thought this need to be posted here and now.

Yesterday I was working on a clients computer-for about 5 hours (really messed up).
Durning the corse of the work I noticed a mason ring in his finger and asked him about it.
He told me a story of being a young-5 yeas old-indian mix child. He fell of a tracter and it ran over his right arm and broke it in 7 places.
Being late 30's in the mid west, the hospital wanted to just remove the arm and be done with it-he and his family had no money.
THe mason's had the arm stablized and he was driven some 1200 miles on nonpaved roads to another hospital.
t was fixed and equavelent of physical theorpty was done for many months. When he was brought back to his parents, the only charges were about $3 for candy bars he had eaten.
He is now a well respected business owner. He is a simple, honest hard working man, who does not lie or "tell stories".
With all the stories of evil that the masons are/may do, ithought this was a necessary addition to the topic.

I agree with you and one can sustain and have a opinion of what ever he wants that is not a problem.
But secrets always raise qestions the masonic lodge is not like a open library where you can go and talk to the libraryan and ask for information.
Why cause it is closed for the public and the public eye in general.
So it does make it a secret where things are not public it's private.
A private place is the best place for a secret.
If they would just admit to it i think it would raise so manny shadows that it would not itrest people any more.
Take the satanic religion people know of it they know about it but they really dont itrest them self that much in to it has a secret sociaty.
It is simply not itresting cause it's not a secret any more.
People are atracted to secrets like a magnet, people usualy get curios on what they cant see.

Originally posted by pepsi78
But secrets always raise qestions the masonic lodge is not like a open library where you can go and talk to the libraryan and ask for information.
Why cause it is closed for the public and the public eye in general.
So it does make it a secret where things are not public it's private.
A private place is the best place for a secret.

You just described my house as well. Are you saying you're interested in that? You'll be sorely disappointed.

You probaly have usual stuff in u'r house dont you?
nothing to see there just usual stuff.

Originally posted by pepsi78
But secrets always raise qestions

pepsi,

WHY do you think secrets "always" raise questions? Do YOU have any secrets? If so...what are they? Why do you keep them secret? Why not tell EVERYONE what they are? Will you do that? If not, why not?

the masonic lodge is not like a open library where you can go and talk to the libraryan and ask for information.

Exactly. It's NOT. Because the Masonic Lodge is NOT a Library. A Public Library is supported by the public and BELONGS to the Public. The Masonic Lodge is supported by MASONS...NOT the public...and BELONGS to Masons...NOT the Public. Why does that bother you?

Would you walk into a board meeting of a large, privately owned corporation and demand to know what they're discussing? Certainly not, because it's their PRIVATE business and not yours. Not until, you yourself BECOME a board member of that corporation.

Masonry is the same. It's ours...the Masons. Not the public's....not yours. We're doing nothing that effects you in any adverse way, so why all the concern?

Speaking of libraries, though...remember there are also PRIVATE Libraries where you CAN'T just walk in and ask for information. Do you have an issue with those? If so, why? Your tax dollars do not support them, so they're none of your concern. See?

Why cause it is closed for the public and the public eye in general.
So it does make it a secret where things are not public it's private.

For the reasons stated above. It doesn't BELONG to the public. It belongs to the supporting members....the Masons. Public monies do NOT support it...private donations do.

A private place is the best place for a secret.

I can't argue with that.

If they would just admit to it i think it would raise so manny shadows that it would not itrest people any more.

Admit to what? That we have secrets? Of course we do. We've ALWAYS admitted that. They're just of no concern to the general public.

Take the satanic religion people know of it they know about it but they really dont itrest them self that much in to it has a secret sociaty.

I have no idea what that means.

It is simply not itresting cause it's not a secret any more.
People are atracted to secrets like a magnet, people usualy get curios on what they cant see.

So, what you're saying is you dislike the Masons and spread untruths about them, simply because they won't tell YOU (a non-Mason) their secrets. Hmmm....

Originally posted by pepsi78
But secrets always raise qestions the masonic lodge is not like a open library where you can go and talk to the libraryan and ask for information.
Why cause it is closed for the public and the public eye in general.
So it does make it a secret where things are not public it's private.
A private place is the best place for a secret.

Governments keep secrets.

Corporations keep secrets.

Religious organizations keep secrets.

Individuals keep secrets.

You keep secrets... It's the nature of mankind.

To single out one organization and eschew the nature of all others is... Interesting...

ok.. my stepdad is a mason, i tried talking to him last night after reading this post yesterday.. anyways i tried talking to him about the "masons" and why they are so secretive about what it is they do.. well he explained some.. but he said only 3% is secretive.. and that he couldnt tell me.. (he got really offensive when talking about it) im seroiusly going crazy over this.. i want to know the big damn secret.. supposly these people have been around forever.. im sure between now and then somebody had to of spilt the beans on their secrets. .. right? also.. they said that they are not racist.. but why do the black people have a different lodge than the white people? c'mon that sounds racist to me..?

No i'm not mad that they dont share their secrets.
I just dont get why they dont admit they have secrets.
sociaty+secret=what that might be

plus you debated this but forgot about this

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes i must insist too i am a crestin and i never ever saw piramids suns and eye balls in a crestin church.
But i did see them on the dolar bill.
One that sustains that he go's there and religion is really just of what he learned on the out side is simply a ferytail.
Show me any cristian church that has the eye and the piramid has a simbol of god.
You wont see that simply cause it does not represent god.
You got older religions way old than the masonari brotherhood and none of them have the piramid and the eye.
It is simply not present for the simple fact that the eye and the piramid comes from egipt from horis the god of the underworld.
Read the enciclopedia.

And now i ask you, really have you seen piramids and eyes and suns in crestin churches cause i havent.
You clame you go there with what you know from out side of the masonari has a religion and that masonari does not do religion.
But again i am telling you i my self havent seen churces that have piramids eyes and suns painted on the walls or has simbols in the curch.
In fact i never saw in a single curch and i have visited alot of them
piramids with eyes on them.
Further there are cristian religions that are way older than the masonari brotherhood.
So there is a problem with the crestin religion and piramids and eyes cause they dont coexist.
It is only fair to asume than the eye filosofy and the piramid and the sun must come separate from there has a teaching and as long that it represents some god has a simbol it becomes religon.
The piramid and the eye is thot there has a religion and it does not apear in any cristian curch.
So this indicates that masonary is a religion.
And you all come here and say that no we get the religios stuff from out side has a religion and we dont add any thing or belive in any thing else.
Pffffff what a ridicules clame.
Maybe you would like me to add what the eye means.
I would gladly quote it out for you




this is why i think it's a secret