I mentioned one Mason specifically while I have been on this board.

It has been evidence enough for me, that SOMETHING is afoot with some Freemasons, if not the upper parts of the Organization.

The man was Ilia Pavlov, and he was a 33rd Degree Freemason, and he was a Billionaire over in Bulgaria. One of the 7 richest men in all of Eastern Europe.

But he has also been linked to Arms dealing, Drugs, a lot of corruption in his companies. But no biggie, its not Communism atleast!

The former Prime Minister of Bulgaria, who had helped Ilia get funding and government support for his companies from the Get-Go, was murdered in shocking fashion, out in the open, outside his home, one day.

At the trial (more than 18 months later), the day after Ilia Pavlov testified, he was gunned down as well.

This guy was not killed because he was innocent, it is obvious he was guilty of a lot as well, and it was the PROOF of this that needed to be eliminated, as well as the need to investigate his crimes.

But I come on here, and yes, Freemasons that had never heard of him defended him instantly.

That was a maor turning point for me.

Originally posted by akilles
I mentioned one Mason specifically while I have been on this board.
....
But I come on here, and yes, Freemasons that had never heard of him defended him instantly.

That was a maor turning point for me.

I challenge you to point us to the post in which ANY mason defended this man you speak of. MAKE SURE that he is defending your man, as you say, and not Freemasonry in general.

All we ever did was tell you that just because ONE MAN is corrupt and criminal, it does not mean that the entire fraternity must be also~! We questioned your logic in the matter, and we still do. That is ALL we ever defended, and even non-masons have said the same to you. We simply defended the name of our fraternity, from your slander and gross assumptions.


[edit on 21-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

When one posts a belligerent post without proof, they come off as foolish and that shows itself to people who are a third party. I believe that Masons are good, there is always the black sheep who ruins it for everyone else. I just cannot believe the complete crackpot theories spun from this forum sometimes. Go on point the finger and blame the Masons for the world's problems. Realize however that we each contributed to the problems - it wasn't one group of people it was ALL of us.

Somewhere along the lines we lost the point of a brotherhood...

Originally posted by Trinityman
I don't agree with your assertion that multiple masons counter-attack. One or two have gone on the attack, and there have been multiple defenses, but I don't think thats the same thing.

Trinity that was what I meant. Multiple pro-mason posts that can, on occassion, get pretty mean spirited.

Even if it is defensive in nature.

Everyone has a right to defend their opinions, all I was trying to say was that the pro-masons could choose to ignore what they consider ignorant.

As opposed to engaging in debate about the so-called "crack-pot" charges against masonry.

Look I have nothing against masonry, I was just commenting on what I thought about the secret societies forums.

NASA doesn't respond to moon hoaxers because they know it is a non-issue. Why waste your time?

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
this place is insane, i know things about masonry that can describe to ''one'' as ''BAD'' but in another peers mind it can be ''good.'' so um, whats the point in arguing, we know this topic is way over the line?

Well what do you "know"? Let's hear it!

And how is this topic "way over the line"? This is what this forum is for, to discuss so-called "Secret Societies" and ostensibly to offer the people within this forum to "Deny Ignorance". Many here make a commendable effort to do just that, while others continue to choose to wallow in said ignorance.

Skadi:

You kick ass. Just thought I would say so.

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by The Axeman
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!

Why do people come to a forum named, ABOVE TOP SECRET?

To check the local weather?

OR the latest Football results?

I dont Think So!

To make false claims?

To lie about people and things they know nothing about?

To encourage ignorance and distrust of their fellow man?

I don't think so!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I actually came here as a stop in my quest for knowledge about Masonry. When I learned what I was seeking to learn, I noticed that there were many here whose only purpose in being here is to blemish the reputation of Freemasons everywhere by way of posting lies and half truths, and trying to use a handful of men who happened to be Masons who brought shame upon themselves by their actions. The plain truth is that for every Mason who has shamed himself there are hundreds of thousands that bring honor to themselves, their fraternity, and their communities; but this vast majority is "swept under the rug" by those who have an agenda against Freemasonry, and when confronted with this fact, the anti-Mason will usually run and hide, so to speak, and refuse to address the valid points made by those on the opposing side of their argument.

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
Then, stop calling everyone LIERS! Stop and listen to what they have to say. If you dont agree with what is said, fine, but dont try to defend 2 or 3 million people you dont know personally.

Stop attacking and trying to vilify 2 or 3 million people you don't know personally. How about that?!

I myself listen to what everyone has to say on this board. Some of it is truth and respectable posting, some of it is lies and diatribe. I call it how I see it.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Someone is lying, but I'm not sure who it is...is it the Masons or their detractors?

I think it is pretty damned obvious, but that's just me.

Originally posted by akilles
I mentioned one Mason specifically while I have been on this board.

It has been evidence enough for me, that SOMETHING is afoot with some Freemasons, if not the upper parts of the Organization.

And Masons have posted countless accounts of good men who are known for good deeds, and the number of such men FAR outwieghs the number of men the anti will try to use to make thier point.

It has been evidece enough for me, that NOTHING is afoot with Freemasonry, and there are no "upper parts" of the organization for the millionth time.

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Trinity that was what I meant. Multiple pro-mason posts that can, on occassion, get pretty mean spirited.

Even if it is defensive in nature.

Everyone has a right to defend their opinions, all I was trying to say was that the pro-masons could choose to ignore what they consider ignorant.

As opposed to engaging in debate about the so-called "crack-pot" charges against masonry.

...

NASA doesn't respond to moon hoaxers because they know it is a non-issue. Why waste your time?

Everyone has their limits, I suppose. There have been times when Masons or pro-Masons (myself included) have let our tempers and tongues get the best of us. Hey, we're human. As for ignoring the ignorant? That was the policy of Masons for a long time, and now look at the flak they deal with because of it. An unchallenged lie will, to some, stand as truth. This is what has happened over time. Now, becasue Masons have chosen to ignore all that up to this point, they must work twice as hard and take twice as much grief from the uninformed just to get the point across that their fraternity is not nefarious in nature. I say kudos to the Masons here. By and large they take the slanderous lies directed at them and calmly and respectfully point out the errors and link to facts to back them up. More than I can say for those who take up the sword against Freemasonry. Theirs is a losing battle because in the end, the Truth WILL prevail.

[edit on 5/21/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Everyone has a right to defend their opinions, all I was trying to say was that the pro-masons could choose to ignore what they consider ignorant.
...
NASA doesn't respond to moon hoaxers because they know it is a non-issue. Why waste your time?

This has often been the very position of MOST masons, including official Grand Lodge policy. I believe that is fine, but I also believe that this policy is what has allowed the POPULAR belief about masons to be negative. All these claims, having gone unanswered for so long, have led people who know nothing about Freemasonry to at least think about, if not believe, what these crack-pot theorists claim!

We debunk all these claims, regardless of how bizarre they are, because people come to this forum for answers. If the only answers they receive are those of the kind posted by MrNECROS, Akilles or All-Seeing Eye, then they are not really receiving fair and balanced info regarding Freemasonry, are they? We seek to change that, so that people may get the truth, and have a chance to explore that information, instead of ONLY learning through fantastic claims of conspiracy, wrongdoing, devil worship, New World Orders and the Illuminati.

exactly my point axeman, how many threads has their been about masonry and theres all this thrown at each other and nothing pretty much gets across?

no one answered my second post about the masons having to do with the qabbala..

All we do know is that they have elected to subscribe to a system of morality, and that should tell us something about them

Yes, it is saying something about them, and after reading all the entries in this thread I know pretty much where I'll stand, but I'm saying it anyway.But as one pointed out we all are entitled to our opinion.

Because of different observations I've made over the last several years of masons in my area and from what I've read, putting it all together my conclusion is their 'adoption of morality' is nothing more than a 'holier than thou' attitude....pure hypocrasy. There may very well be masons who are decent, God fearing people who have a conscience, but I don't think a whole lot of them do. If they don't like you, if you don't live up to their so called moral "standards" then their evil thread of conspiracy begins. Whether or not they have their facts right or not, most often not, they will form a network and whomever it is they don't like, their subtle, lying, finger pointing, slanderous, conspiracy of networking begins and they will set out to destroy someone. This is a true and very very sad fact. Can I prove all this? It is hard to prove something that is perpetuated by such a skilled bunch of groups, that have been doing all this for God knows how long, it is hard to prove how many lives have been destroyed, how many suicides have taken place under their harassement and torment, and these suicides being made to look like the person 'wasn't all there' or 'crazy' or 'had problems at work or at home'. Should I post my observations, and what I've read? No, I'll keep it a secret. Then if I can't prove it, I shouldn't post it? Wrong. I can't prove it, and I've stated why. Anyone who argues in their defense can't prove they aren't perpetuating all this, but be assured I am not the only one who knows this is going on, not by a long shot. There might even be posters in this forum somewhere who have posted similar mason activities, and I haven't read them yet. In any case, I hope whoever reads my post and understands what I am talking about comes forward and backs me up, but if not, so be it. I believe most will do their level best to discredit me. These people are in every part of society...government, public utilities, large chain stores, unions, the list goes on and on. And in some groups, when they have and can use the patriot act to fuel their own disgusting perpetual thread of evil, your life is over.
Don't tell me they subscribe to morality, thier lack of conscience is a subscription to a thread of evil that is world wide. If someone has done something wrong, or have done nothing wrong and simply don't like you for whatever reason they've dreamed up, their manifestions are such a large powerful EVIL force that you wonder why God hasn't stepped in to end it. Well, He didn't step in to stop 911, free will is for everyone, good, bad and everything in between. If someone, anyone, has done something wrong, they answer to the LAW, and to GOD, nobody else. EVERYONE has the right to be forgiven, to correct what was wrong, and to either continue their life or turn it around and start over. Nobody should be subjected to a slanderous, stalking conspiracy that ultimately destroys them at the hands of these so called 'moral groups' who are nothing more than DAMNED hypocrites. And believe me, thier actions will be damned, no question. They may get away with what they are doing here and now, but their 'secrets' will be made known in front of the 'Throne' the God of all creation.


There has to be someone out there reading this that knows exactly what I am talking about.....of what these groups, masons, illuminati, order of the eastern star, daughters of the revolution....(not sure if this is the right name for 'daughters') etc. etc., are doing behind those 'secret doors', what they are REALLY about. They aren't about good, not by a long shot. But the poster I took the quote from, this quote, man, that sums it up nicely.
They 'subscribe to morality' does say a lot, yes it does. But it doesn't have the same meaning for me that it probably does for most, it for me, is something to hide behind, a veil of secrecy, hyporcasy. Again, I know there must be decent people in these groups, but for the life of me, I can't understand why these 'decent' people would be involved in such evil conspiracies.

However anyone in this forum feels about the masons, and any group like them, that are associated with them, that this whole post applies to, as I have said I am entitled to my opinion, so are you. You can think of the masons and such groups as moral, beneficial, God loving, and people friendly. This is your opinion, I will respect it, but it does give me gas.

Originally posted by losingground
If they don't like you, if you don't live up to their so called moral "standards" then their evil thread of conspiracy begins. Whether or not they have their facts right or not, most often not, they will form a network and whomever it is they don't like, their subtle, lying, finger pointing, slanderous, conspiracy of networking begins and they will set out to destroy someone.

Are you just making this up as you go? Or have you thought about this long and hard before posting lies in a thread titled "Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?"

There has to be someone out there reading this that knows exactly what I am talking about.....

I sure as hell don't, and I've known so many masons that's I've lost count.

...doing behind those 'secret doors', what they are REALLY about. They aren't about good, not by a long shot.

I'm sure the average mason is three times the person you could ever be, IMHO.

We've told everyone MANY times what we do behind those closed doors. We conduct lodge business, such as charities, specials events, etc... and we confer degrees. In other words, we initiate new members. That's it. Oh, yeah, and we have steak night every once in a while. YUM!

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I'm sure the average mason is three times the person you could ever be, IMHO.

So, are you trying to say that average mason is extremelly overweighted?

Hm, this theory holds water. To many steak dinners i guess.

[edit on 22-5-2005 by yanchek]

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
exactly my point axeman, how many threads has their been about masonry and theres all this thrown at each other and nothing pretty much gets across?

Not entirely true. I mean me myself, I came here as a skeptic, and in a large part due to the Masons here and their posts, guidance and links they provided, I came to the conclusion that things are the way that the Masons put forth, regarding Masonry. If only a few open-minded individuals is able to see through the lies of the anti-Mason, then our work here on this site is not in vain. There ae those who choose not to see the truth, and there are those who know the truth but choose to make fantastic claims and lie regardless. My point is that the men here who defend their Craft are doing a great service to Freemasonry, and should be commended.

no one answered my second post about the masons having to do with the qabbala..

The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction, does in fact use qaballah in their teachings. As I am not a Mason (much less a Scottish Rite Mason) I can't really go into detail based on personal experience. I can tell you however, that Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma goes in depth about qabalistic principles and ideas, and how they relate to Freemasonry. Masonic Light is who I would direct you to to learn more about this topic. He is (IMHO) by far the most knowledgeable Mason on this board concerning such things.

I know it's not much, but I hope this helps.

[edit on 5/22/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by yanchek
So, are you trying to say that average mason is extremelly overweighted?

Hm, this theory holds water. To many steak dinners i guess.

Hahaha sadly, this is true as well. We actually have a dinner at least once a month at the lodge, but we always get more than twice as many brothers as usual joining us on steak night. And they usually are the "meatier" ones.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Not entirely true. I mean me myself, I came here as a skeptic, and in a large part due to the Masons here and their posts, guidance and links they provided, I came to the conclusion that things are the way that the Masons put forth, regarding Masonry. If only a few open-minded individuals is able to see through the lies of the anti-Mason, then our work here on this site is not in vain.

Axeman is not the only one who has thanked us for helping him learn the truth and change his mind about Freemasonry. Sharkman, xytestes(?), and several others who's name I forgot have all thanked us either publically or in private, and some have even gone so far as to APOLOGIZE for the things they said in the past, and the claims they made. Our work here is most definitely not in vain!

There are different kinds of lies and liars.

The kind who is adamant that he or she knows something, which is either contrary to fact or outside the scope of their experience or reliable evidence, is a liar and a fool.

I am sure there are liars and fools who are Freemasons, but on best evidence - even the microcosm of the limited discussion of "Masonic conspiracies" at ATS - there are more liars and fools amongst anti-Masons and non-Masons who become detractors of Freemasonry.

And there are plenty of liars and fools who hold high offices in politics, in commerce, in religion... but their foolishness is forgiven because their position indicates to the person doing the forgiving that the object of forgiveness could not be a fool. This forgiveness is poor reasoning.

LeftBehind

Yeah - I know what you mean. I actually really quite like this forum, and sometimes end up making a post when perhaps just leaving it alone might be better. Other times I ought to make a post but don't because I don't have the time.

Its just hard to leave stuff alone when you know it's so blatently wrong.

losingground

Yes, you're entitled to your opinion. More than that, you're entitled to share it around.

But I'm equally entitled to mine, and I'm going to share it with you now. I don't recognise the fraternity I'm a member of in your post. Freemasonry is fundamentally a good organisation, not a bad one.

I think you worry too much.

Because: (answer to thread question)

they don't know,
they want to get a rise,
they are masons,
they are not masons,

That pretty much covers the universe I think.

I wonder why the invisible RANT nudged/bumped this topic.

The workings of the ATS "staff" secret society are strange and mysterious.

[edit on 22-5-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

I knew all too well that I would get negative feedback, I didn't expect it to be almost entirely negative.
I wasn't making this up as I go along, I'm not into story telling especially on a forum like this. And I wasn't out to slam the masons in its entirety, or the sub groups, or any related groups. As a whole, and as I said, I am sure there are decent people doing decent works, but what I was trying to point out was what I had to say is happening and perpetrated by some of the people in power in these groups. They are abusing their position, abuse of power. These are people connected nationally, internationally, and they have a perfect way to network, it seems to me very easy for them to be abe to connect, correspond especially with so many different parts of society, people in different high level positions can feed this 'thread' I talked about.
You know, after reading what was posted in response to my post, it's obvious that I may as well post all this to one of those smilies to the right. I feel like at this point I'm not getting through at all. I am not making this up, I know it exists, it is NOT easy to prove, and more people than are willing to come forward and back me up know this goes on. There seems to be a lot of masons here on this forum, and obviously angry with me and what I have to say, and probably some people who aren't masons but pro masons. It's hard to make my point alone, it would be easier if someone knew what I ws talking about and would help me on it.
To the other poster that says I worry too much, I worry the most when I see this type of crap happen and they get away with it. I worry when someone speaks up about it, which is rare, and everyone says you're 'off your rocker'....this worries me, and it angers me. It angers me because I said something negative (very negative) about an organization that is supposedly good, in league with God, high moral standards, and I get only comments basically saying "you don't know what you're talking about, so take a pill".
Unless someone wants to acknowledge the truth on this with me, subject closed. For now.

Originally posted by losingground
but what I was trying to point out was what I had to say is happening and perpetrated by some of the people in power in these groups. They are abusing their position, abuse of power. These are people connected nationally, internationally, and they have a perfect way to network, it seems to me very easy for them to be abe to connect, correspond especially with so many different parts of society...

You are sure of this, yet you cannot name any of these people or describe any of the circumstances in detail?!? COULD IT BE that maybe you are convincing yourself of something for which you have never seen ANY evidence, or ever had the slightest reason to believe?