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Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

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posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 01:40 PM
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We will get this thread back on trackl, and we will cease and desist in all attempts to turn this thread in to a religious debate, discussion or argument.

Here's how it works:

Present a thesis and give reasons for your belief that your thesis is true and correct to the best of your knowledge.

Those who agree, give supporting evidence and information that is true and correct tothe best of your knowledge.

Those who feel the thesis is not correct, present you side of the discussion with supporting evidence and information.

Do not stray far from this. Police yourselves with discipline and restraint. This is the way to evaluate conspiratorial topics.

Get on track, or this tack will be shut down. No good comes in a thread being closed, and I assure you, those who cause a thread to be closed will be watched by me, and I'll be watching to see if an attempt to shut down discussion is the agenda.




posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
We will get this thread back on trackl, and we will cease and desist in all attempts to turn this thread in to a religious debate, discussion or argument.


Seems to me the thread is right on track. People posting and claiming that Masonry worships Lucifer or Satan is an untruth about Masonry, ergo we are on track.

I don't think I've seen any baiting or attempting to derail.



[edit on 10/19/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Ok -sigh- When will most of you guys ever get it.? let's simplify everything shall we? If it's it's not of Christ.. it's of the world.. comprende? Your little organisation called "freemasonry" is not Christ centered, I don't care how many good "works" are done in lieu of your little "club". That's really all I need to know. I didn't make those rules, our Creator did. If you don't like those rules argue with God. (You will loose) Some scripture to ponder:



Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

2pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you .

And one of my favorites:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and -VAIN- deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


Open your "eyes". It's really quite simple.





[edit on 19-10-2005 by TxSecret]



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by resistance

Golfie you said:


Who would've thunk it?!? Venus, The Morning Star, Lucifer being concerned with power, control and knowledge.....


You are using the Illuminist scriptures to give the name of Jesus to Satan. Only the good old King James, which is the real Bible btw, speaks the truth about Satan and calls him by his true name that he had when he was in Heaven before he fell -- Lucifer. The Morning Star is not the name for Satan. That is God's name, the name for Jesus, the bright and Morning Star.



Ummm no I'm not....If you would for one iota of a second research the name lucifer....you would find that it was a term used for the planet Venus...aka the morning star....


Don't believe me?...go to your favorite dictionary or better yet use the ATS search function and read some of the lucifer threads.....

On a side note please point out to me in the KJV (btw that's the only Bible I read) where it says that satan's name is lucifer....Shouldn't be hard to find since the word is used only ONCE



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
Ok -sigh- When will most of you guys ever get it.? let's simplify everything shall we? If it's it's not of Christ.. it's of the world.. comprende? Your little organisation called "freemasonry" is not Christ centered, I don't care how many good "works" are done in lieu of your little "club". That's really all I need to know. I didn't make those rules, our Creator did. If you don't like those rules argue with God. (You will loose) Some scripture to ponder:


I beg to differ. Altho Masonry may not be Christ centered to a person of Jewish or Islamic faith, but to a Christian it most certainly is. Let me explain

Masonry makes good men better. It does this by use of three tenets Faith, Hope and Charity. It's hard to have Faith without religion is it not? So to use Faith to better the man, Masonry must urge its' members to use the members' own personal religion (Faith) to better themselves. This means that a Christian Mason would put Christ at the center of their lives. It doesn't matter if you're sitting in a Lodge Meeting or a PTA meeting Christ is at the center of any Christian's Life. To a non-christian Mason...you are correct Christ wouldn't be at the center....but then again he might not even get an honorable mention.



*snip some biblical quotes that I fail to see the relevance to the discussion*


Open your "eyes". It's really quite simple.


I agree...that's why I find it so hard to see why some have issues with the Masonic organization....

Some people need to blink, because they are seeing things that just aren't there.....



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
Ok -sigh- When will most of you guys ever get it.? let's simplify everything shall we? If it's it's not of Christ.. it's of the world.. comprende? Your little organisation called "freemasonry" is not Christ centered, I don't care how many good "works" are done in lieu of your little "club". That's really all I need to know. I didn't make those rules, our Creator did. If you don't like those rules argue with God. (You will loose)

Hey everyone, you'd better not join any sporting clubs, bridge clubs, fan clubs, theatre troupes, music bands, conservationist groups, professional organizations, or any other group/club/organization that isn't God-centred. They're all of this world--and of course, therefore, bad.


Oh, all those poor lost souls in the Mickey Mouse Club.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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Golfie -- If Masons don't worship Satan why are you so adamant about trying to prove to me that Lucifer and Satan are two different people? If you don't worship Lucifer, if he's nobody special to the Masons, what's the big hype to prove that Lucifer is the Morning Star (another name for Jesus), not Satan.

Why are you so defensive of Lucifer? Everybody in the world knows who Lucifer is -- Satan.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by resistance
Golfie -- If Masons don't worship Satan why are you so adamant about trying to prove to me that Lucifer and Satan are two different people? If you don't worship Lucifer, if he's nobody special to the Masons, what's the big hype to prove that Lucifer is the Morning Star (another name for Jesus), not Satan.

Why are you so defensive of Lucifer? Everybody in the world knows who Lucifer is -- Satan.


Ok one last time....Venus (you know the planet) also known as the Morning Star (Not Jesus....altho he did refer to himself as the Morning Star) which the Romans called lucifer....

Fact the term lucifer appears ONCE in the KJV of the Bible in reference to the king of babylon.
Fact lucifer was used by the Romans to reference the planet Venus.
Fact Jerome when translating the bible from Hebrew to Latin used the word lucifer.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that satan is known as lucifer. I asked you to show me....but I've yet to see it....why....because it does not exist.

Now you said that you would run to the administration if anyone on this board called you a liar.....

Do not call me a satan/lucifer worshipper. I've not questioned your faith...I appreciate it if you don't question mine.

I have only questioned your accusations and or your logic. I have asked you to research, obviously you have chosen to ignore that.

Oh and by the way....I'm not the one that called satan a god.....

People who live in glass houses......

Another question that I will ask (altho I don't expect an answer to this one either) is: Where do you get the idea that Mason's worship satan (or as you refer to him lucifer)? Did you read it somewhere? Do you have first hand knowledge? Did someone tell you?

I am starting to believe that you are just trying to antagonize and incite confrontation. This comes after you alude to the idea that I'm a satan worshipper which I assure you I am not.


[edit on 19-10-2005 by Golfie]



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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Lexicon,

How many sporting clubs, bridge clubs, fan clubs, theatre troupes, music bands, conservationist groups, professional organizations, etc ask you what god you worship? (Nuff' said)

I didn't say everything in the world was evil just because it's not of Christ.


Golfie, this whole debate about satan versus lucifer in the Bible is ludicrous.. WHO CARES.. Most people today equate satan/lucifer with the devil. There is more than one name used for the "evil one" in the Bible but the fact remains he is the devil.. PERIOD.

Ok.. Why do some people think that masons worship the devil? I answered that in my last post.. READ IT.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
Lexicon,

How many sporting clubs, bridge clubs, fan clubs, theatre troupes, music bands, conservationist groups, professional organizations, etc ask you what god you worship? (Nuff' said)

I didn't say everything in the world was evil just because it's not of Christ.


But Masonry is? For the record...Masonry does not ask you what god you worship...we don't care....Just that you believe in a supreme being. Nothing more, Nothing Less.



Golfie, this whole debate about satan versus lucifer in the Bible is ludicrous.. WHO CARES.. Most people today equate satan/lucifer with the devil. There is more than one name used for the "evil one" in the Bible but the fact remains he is the devil.. PERIOD.


You can call him Steve for all I care.....really...

Fact is that many people do equate satan with lucifer...wrongly but they do.
And the reasoning of why they do is fundamentally flawed.



Ok.. Why do some people think that masons worship the devil? I answered that in my last post.. READ IT.


I did read it...I posted a follow-up and I agree with Lexicon's interpretation of it ...that you meant that if it's not of Christ then it's evil....now you say well not all things.....So again I ask what makes the Mason's evil when others aren't....I've already adressed the "what god do you worship" idea?



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 12:17 AM
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Much better, except for Lexicon. That is how we go astray and turn into a flaming contest.
We have here two groups, one is composed of people who tend to believe there is some truth in the vast array of theories on the Free and Accepted Masons, and the other is compried of people, most of whom are members of Masonic lodges.
This is a unique situation in the world of conspiracy theories, if you stop and think about it.

Let me take this time to remind folks that the ones who believe there is truth to the theories are quite certain that those Masons who are at this forum know nothing of the secrets that are supposed to make Masonry bad, and they are pretty darned sure they the Masons know nothing of the evil plan to take over the world. This being said, I have to agree with that, that the Masons here know of no evil plan or evil secrets as I am pretty sure that the Masons that are present at the board would not be a Mason.

Now, having said that, let the calm and rational (Is that word allowed here?) discussion continue.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
Lexicon,

How many sporting clubs, bridge clubs, fan clubs, theatre troupes, music bands, conservationist groups, professional organizations, etc ask you what god you worship? (Nuff' said)


We don't ask what god our members or perspective members worship, again you are in error and your claims are false.


Originally posted by TxSecret
I didn't say everything in the world was evil just because it's not of Christ.


No you said something to the tune of "If its not of Christ then its of this world" and illuded to those things of this world being evil. Mind you, no one by the name of "Christ", or "Jesus Christ" ever existed, but thats another conversation.



Originally posted by TxSecret
Golfie, this whole debate about satan versus lucifer in the Bible is ludicrous.. WHO CARES.. Most people today equate satan/lucifer with the devil.


Yes most people including yourself do these days, and do so wrongly. You can't simply say it doesn't matter because in fact it does, they are two different beings, representing vastly different things. To equate them brings much error and confusion and leads to false claims and accusations such as Masons worshiping the devil just because Pike made a statement about Lucifer, NOT SATAN in HIS, NOT FREEMASONRY's philosophical book Morals and Dogma.

Satan and Lucifer are NOT THE SAME THING! and Masons don't worship Lucifer either!


Originally posted by TxSecret
Ok.. Why do some people think that masons worship the devil? I answered that in my last post.. READ IT.


Well no, you gave your opinion and a religiously fueled, biased one at that. Your thoughts and arguement are centered around your personal religious philosophy of "if its not of Christ then its of the world" etc. Obviously you feel that "salvation" can only be found through "Christ" which I must say is an ignorant borderline dangerous way of thinking. Such thinking has lead to the genocide and massacre of millions of all creeds races and nations around the world. To say such things simulatenously says that all other faiths and beliefs are wrong, and thats just not cool. Believe what you believe, but I would advise you keep such lines of thinking to yourself. It insults others, and you never know, someone develop a bone to pick with you about your religious philosophy.

Good Day



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by TxSecret


Golfie, this whole debate about satan versus lucifer in the Bible is ludicrous.. WHO CARES.. Most people today equate satan/lucifer with the devil. There is more than one name used for the "evil one" in the Bible but the fact remains he is the devil.. PERIOD.


There was a time when most people thought the world was flat.. they were wrong.

People equate lucifer to the devil because they are told to by ignorant ministers that dont know their own spiritual texts. just like they were once told that the earth was flat.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 01:08 AM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
Ok -sigh- When will most of you guys ever get it.? let's simplify everything shall we? If it's it's not of Christ.. it's of the world.. comprende? Your little organisation called "freemasonry" is not Christ centered, I don't care how many good "works" are done in lieu of your little "club". That's really all I need to know.
[edit on 19-10-2005 by TxSecret]


sooo just because an organization isnt christ based, that makes it evil? does that make the american medical assosiation satanic? What about the screen actors guild? they are (as you put it) a little "club", oh hey what about the united nations?? are they abunch of devil worshipers? if so, you better cancel your next Dr's appointment, stop going to movies and move to a non-UN nation (good luck finding a christian nation that isnt with the UN btw)

the fact is, not being a "christian" organisation doesnt make it satanic.. it's the people in it.. and since every mason i have ever met was christian.. and let me add that some of those were ordained ministers of the various christian churches..

Whats more.. i have met many satanists in this world and their pride and arrogance (manditory traits for a true satanist) does not allow them to hide their faith.. but not one of those satanists were masons

As i have stated more then once.. the Masonic order.. as with any organisation, is made up of the men that join it.. and if good men join the order, then it will be a force for good... and in my time i have met ONE single mason that was any thing less then a good man.. and he was just a pathetic jerk

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Becon of Light]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 01:34 AM
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Khonso, I think you are complicating things more than they should be but a good reply.

When I stated: "How many sporting clubs, bridge clubs, fan clubs, theatre troupes, music bands, conservationist groups, professional organizations, etc ask you what god you worship? (Nuff' said) "

One of the requirements of freemasonry is that you worship "a" god.. Am I wrong? Let me rephrase the question:

"How many sporting clubs, bridge clubs, fan clubs, theatre troupes, music bands, conservationist groups, professional organizations, etc ask you if you worship a god? (Nuff' said)


Jesus Christ never existed? Ok,.. Sounds like we will NEVER be on the same page here. For another conversation? Nah.. don't think so. It applys here with great pertinence. My faith is based on something you can't get head around. (At least for now) I can't argue my point without revealing my faith. You obviously have faith in what you believe. no?

Satan and Lucifer not the same thing? Maybe not by -your- deffinition and premise but I think in the end you will find that they are more intertwined than you could have ever imagined. Like I said ealier and you can't rebut this, MOST people as of late consider Lucifer and Satan to be the same thing. (how many times to I have to say this?) My views of freemasonry are not based on any confusion concerning the "difference" between Satan and Lucifer. Can we give that rest now? Curious, the Bible says the devil is the author of confusion. Interesting indeed.

When you assume that I feel that salvation can only be found through Christ you better believe it. Is -my- "line of thinking" an ignorant borderline way of thinking? That's your oppinion but to compare me with people that caused (as you say) "the genocide and massacre of millions of all creeds races and nations around the world" is DEFFINITELY ignorant. Hitler was not a Christian.. Take that however you like.

My own personal religious philosophy? Nah.. don't think so. It's the TRUTH. Are all other faiths and beliefs wrong? I didn't say it.. God and Jesus did. Argue with them. It's obvious you and I will probably never see eye to eye on this but you can rest assured I will take Jesus' word over yours ANY day of the week.

I WILL believe what I believe and I don't appreciate your -advice- to keep my line of thinking to myself, keep in mind your "advice" has *no* bearing on my will or future endeavors whatsoever.

Futhermore, I don't care who I insult or offend. It's not like I'm going around and trying to kill people right? You seem really concerned about that. (little stab at humor there, the last part of the sentence at least.)

Am I worried that someone will develop a bone to pick with me about my so called "religious" philosphy? I welcome it. That's what we are all here for.. To love and challenge each other.






[edit on 20-10-2005 by TxSecret]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 02:25 AM
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Becon, I wanted to follow up on your post a little.
When you say:

"sooo just because an organization isnt christ based, that makes it evil? does that make the american medical assosiation satanic? What about the screen actors guild? they are (as you put it) a little "club", oh hey what about the united nations?? are they abunch of devil worshipers? if so, you better cancel your next Dr's appointment, stop going to movies and move to a non-UN nation (good luck finding a christian nation that isnt with the UN btw) "

Again I ask: How many of these organizations you mention require that you worship a god? Trying to compare the screen actors/writers build with freemasonry is like trying to compare the Vatican with the auto mechanics guild here in my home state.

I have many problems with freemasonry but will articulate on the main one for now: I have a problem with the "pick a god" doctrine of freemasonry. Whatever god you worship freemasonry will use this "god" to better you by. Golfie said something along these lines: "since we can't better our members without faith and we need a religion to have faith we will pick ANY old religion and use it to grow by"

Are you "seeing" the problem with this?

It may not matter to -you- what "god" anyone chooses to worship/"grow" by but it matters to the one and only REAL true living GOD. Seems like some of you get -real- irritated with scripture but I'm going to throw some more your way:


Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(Can you guess which commadment that was?)

Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:


Interesting eh?








[edit on 20-10-2005 by TxSecret]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by TxSecret

I have many problems with freemasonry but will articulate on the main one for now: I have a problem with the "pick a god" doctrine of freemasonry. Whatever god you worship freemasonry will use this "god" to better you by. Golfie said something along these lines: "since we can't better our members without faith and we need a religion to have faith we will pick ANY old religion and use it to grow by"

Are you "seeing" the problem with this?

It may not matter to -you- what "god" anyone chooses to worship/"grow" by but it matters to the one and only REAL true living GOD. Seems like some of you get -real- irritated with scripture but I'm going to throw some more your way:

[edit on 20-10-2005 by TxSecret]


no.. i dont see a problem with it, because i understand what christians cant seem to grasp, is that all religion boils down to one thing.. worship of the force of creation, and this is what we are told to hold before all other gods.. it is just by different names that it is known, which name do you know god by? if you say jehovah then your worshiping in the name of poor translation..Jehovah is a poor translation of the word Yahweh (the name jehovah is old english based on the greek name for Yahweh, in old english J sounds the same as Y, which is why I and J appear next to each other in the alphabet) ... but does that mean your going to hell for worshiping jehovah? no.. not really.. i think god will forgive you for not knowing his hebrew name

as to jesus christ never exsisting.. that is true.. jesus is not a hebrew name.. so how could the great savior who was born of the tribes of isreal be named jesus? again.. poor translation.. his name was Yeshua.. now you cant really be blamed for not knowing this, you probably dont speak or read hebrew.. but watch "the passions of the christ" and you will not hear the name Jesus spoken once.. but you will hear Yeshua, you will hear it every time someone speaks of.. or to the redeemer.. and CHRIST... well Christ is another poor translation from the greek word Christos.. which means savior. This is all verifiable info.. and before you go asking about sources.. look it up.. i did.

why is it that only myself.. and the masons of this forum know any of this?

ohh i remember.. because in the bible Yeshua said that those who proclaim the loudest to be of his church will not know about him or his words as well as those who do not so loudly proclaim it

Oh and i would like to thank the person for whom i recieve my SECOND offical applause for my most recent post above this one.. seems someone else has done their homework too.. and while i wont name names.. i'll tell all of you right now it wasnt one of the masons here

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Becon of Light]

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Becon of Light]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 04:23 AM
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Read "Morals and Dogma of Freemasonary" by Albert Pike and you will learn that Lucifer is thier GOD. I have an online copy if you want a copy.
YOu could also check out "The History of Freemasonary and its Legendary Origins" BY Albert Mackey A 32 degree freemason.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Much better, except for Lexicon. That is how we go astray and turn into a flaming contest.

Oh come on, Thomas, it was just a little bit of play. And besides, I think it actually holds--if one organization is 'bad' because it is not based on Christ, then all others not based on Christ should also be bad.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by TxSecret
How many sporting clubs, bridge clubs, fan clubs, theatre troupes, music bands, conservationist groups, professional organizations, etc ask you what god you worship? (Nuff' said)

I couldn't tell you. This I can tell you--masons don't ask what god you worship either. They ask if you believe in 'God' or a 'Supreme Being', and that's it.




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