Russia's next-generation T-95 tank

reply to post by iskander


allow me to out this to bed finally


www.defense-update.com...

This cartridge was the primary anti-tank weapon used by US Army tanks during Desert Storm. Weight: 20.9kg, Length: 984mm, Propellant: JA 19 Perf (7.9kg) creating a chamber pressure of 5,600 bar. The Projectile length: 780mm. Weight: 9kg. Penetrator is made of depleted uranium. length: 684mm. Diameter: 22mm. Weight: 4.6kg. Muzzle velocity: 1,575m/sec. Target range: 3,000 mw

see the bolded part? double arena`s ability to react.

arena cannot detect launches out to 2km`s - if it could then it would be going off all the time; same as trophy as well - it is not designed to counter long rod KE rounds

you state

1. Smoke/heat
2. Impact
3. Sound

by the time smoke has registered the round has allready hit , impact - the round has hit , sound the KE round has hit , heat (IR energy) you have less than 1 second to detect the bloom from the end of the 120mm gun , 2 km`s away to react to the incoming - how much less than that second? - the thermal expansion continues well after the round has hit so in the flight time your only looking at a thermal (IR) image a few meters accross - 2 km`s away.


all that smoke and flash you see in videos is after the event -what ever the tank is shooting at is either dead or , well dead before the pyrotechnics.


i pose you this - if arena is so `good` why do russia etc have K5 heavy?

How do you know?

I know because the average KE penetrator flies a distance greater than the ARENA's engagement range in less time than the ARENA can react.

And were forgetting something else as well, thats just DETECTION time. Engagement time is a stated .2 to .4 seconds, and at an average .3 seconds the penetrator will travel 300 meters. THATS how I know. Its simply not fast enough. Its sensors do not reach outside 50m simply because its weapon system can't reach that far.

Let me break it down for you;

1. Smoke/heat
2. Impact
3. Sound

Infrared detectors monitor not only heat signatures from booster/motor heat trails of air launched weapons, but also cannon fire.

BIG heat bloom, LOTS of hot smoke, stuff like that.

Seeing as how KE penetrators travel quite a few times the speed of sound, number 3 is a dead point.

Impact? I must be missing something. How would impact help the ARENA block KE penetrators? Does it proceed to shoot the KE penetrators after they have already hit? I know I'm missing something.

Smoke/heat...while this one might be valid I would like to see a source for the claim that ARENA's sensors reach out further than 50m.

Of course all of the above points are still moot seeing as how the ARENA is still not designed to engage projectiles as fast as a KE penetrator

reply to post by Harlequin

see the bolded part? double arena`s ability to react

Guys COME ON!

You’ve all seen the diagram.

Arena system “reaction” time is based on the ability track, identify, engage, and intercept an incoming projectile by launching an interception charge in the air and detonating it, thus sending a blast shockwave and shrapnel witch makes physical contact with the target.

The combined time of all those steps is calculated, and the maximum projectile speed (time during which it will be with in the strike zone) is determined.

arena cannot detect launches out to 2km`s - if it could then it would be going off all the time; same as trophy as well - it is not designed to counter long rod KE rounds

How do you figure?

According to this, you are incorrect;

Ex] It should be noted here that the Arena system intercepts the most dangerous targets for the tank (ATGMs and antitank grenades) that the tank cannot effectively handle. This occurs when ATGMs are launched from a range of 3-8 km, including ATGMs launched from helicopters and when concealed grenade launchers fire on the tank at short ranges and great variety of aspect angles.

russianarmor.info...

When an air launch is detected by the way, T-80/90/95 can launch a missile right back to engage the target.

The ACTIVE tracking phase range starts at 50 meters. ACTIVE means radar is put in full tracking mode so projectile velocity can be exactly calculated in order to precisely trigger the deployment of the intercept charge.

Intercept occurs at 25 meters from the hull of the tank.

The actual tracking range and total system reaction time is classified. Remember that Arena is only a part of a SYSTEM, it’s not a slap on kit operating by it self.


The system is completely automatic and upon activation in enters into a search mode. Now in order to understand what search mode means, I can recommend looking into Soviet/Russian IRST systems which when needed activate short burst radar range finder, emissions of which are invisible to early warning receivers of the tracked targets, thus not alerting the pilot of targeted plate that he’s beet tracked.

Another excellent example of tracking high velocity projectiles is the system which a Californian company developed for the law enforcement use if efforts to decrease high murder rates in gang problem areas.

It was an absolutely marvelous system and it worked great. Radars were mounted on light polls in areas with heavy gang activity and high shooting rates. The system also had a live camera feed which was integrated into the system.

As soon as a shot is fired, the system instantly tracked, identified and pinpointed the location of the shot. It’s origin, direction, speed of the bullet, etc.

The system could even distinguish different gun types/bullet calibers by using filters which separated semi-auto from full auto fire, and bullet velocity/trajectory, which then were compared to the existing values in the data base.

Every single bullet fired was assigned its own unique color, and was superimposed over the live (and recorder) video captured by a hi-rez camera.

That was back in mid 90s.

Remember that to this day out troops in Iraq are still in the “testing” phase of audio (microphone) based triangulation type systems which are notoriously slow and inaccurate. It take over a second to calculate an approximate location of the shooter AFTER the shot has been fired, and in a full out fire fight, the system is utterly useless.

Even in sniper attacks, Iraqis were quick to learn how to fool the system since it’s so visible. I think something like seven microphones are used in a module, they point in every direction, and mounted on the roof of the vehicle.

Inside a simple LED panel and voice module informs the occupant of the general direction of the shot after it was already sent their way. 1 o’clock, 2 o’clock, and so on.

The problem is that it took no time at all for the Iraqis to figure out how to fool the system. Convoys positioned the vehicles with this system in the head of the column so they could communicate the location of the ambush, and then the firepower from the rest of the vehicles is placed on the reported position.

So Iraqis did the simplest thing. They just used junk guns by placing them in a decoy position, tied strings to the triggers, while the real ambush was in a completely different location.

When the convoy was in the kill zone the strings were pulled, junk guns burp up their rounds, and the convoy unleashes everything they got into an empty space, all while the real ambush force is unloading everything they got right where it counts.

What does this have to do with Arena? Think about it, Arena is not going to be the only system in the battle. A whole lot of tanks will their Arena activated, so how is Arena supposed to identify the projectile fire specifically at it and not another tank in the area?

It’s all a part of the greater system. Remember, Arena is an ACTIVE system which uses a RADAR to track incoming threats, so if it’s in search mode all the time, them it would be easily found and identified tens of miles away by electronic surveillance aircraft, further more, if it was that simple then anti-radiation missiles could be fired at them and they would attack the tank like they were radar/SAM units.

In reality this is not the case, and a whole lot of other elements are involved here, one of them being an integrated system which allows it to immediately register a shot fired, and then immediately sends out a signal which automatically engages ACTIVE radars.

by the time smoke has registered the round has allready hit , impact - the round has hit , sound the KE round has hit , heat (IR energy) you have less than 1 second to detect the bloom from the end of the 120mm gun , 2 km`s away to react to the incoming - how much less than that second? - the thermal expansion continues well after the round has hit so in the flight time your only looking at a thermal (IR) image a few meters accross - 2 km`s away.

You’re way behind. We’re talking speed of light here. Motion sensing software rely pixel drift to register and identify motion.

In aerial topography pixel drift compensation is used to convert video footage into functioning and accurate maps.

Shadow depth and contrast ratios provide accurate data on object dimension and height, and all of this is old news.

Canon makes some excellent image stabilized long range lenses. One of them was used in an experiment to test if a video stream can be processed in real time to screen for programmed pixel motion patterns, in this case a cannon muzzle blast. Smoke bloom is not the only thing to come out of the barrel. Super heated, super-sonic blast wave literally distorts huge amount of air around it, thus creating drastic pixel value change (especially verses a background), and apparently such a massive pressure deferential is easily registered from a rather long range.

These days solid state hi-rez CCDs don’t even need lenses, you can pretty much slap them on to anything with a piece of chewed up gum, and with pixel drift compensation software they don’t need expensive stabilization systems.


Arenas official reaction rate - 0.2 - 0.4 sec/threat.

Through out the tank race, Russians always competed with the Germans, and their current standard is the L55, which sends out a dart at 1750m/s

Even at 2 km a cannon blast will be immediately picked up, rate of blast ring expansion computed, identified and processed by a pixel shift code, total system reaction time including deployment and detonation of the intercepting charge – 0.4 seconds.

L55 cold shot peneterator flight time to target from 2k – 1.1 seconds.

Arena full reaction time - 0.4 seconds.

Theoretically, fully integrated Arena system can respond to a L55 shot fired from 1km.

After the first shot has been fired, it’s a whole other story.

all that smoke and flash you see in videos is after the event -what ever the tank is shooting at is either dead or , well dead before the pyrotechnics.

That depends on a lot of things. WWII or post WWII? Post WWII smoothbores have integral pressure reserve drums which rapidly evacuate the smoke from the barrel but at the muzzle the exhaust is slightly retarded.

Every cannon before that, the first thing you’ll see is the some, then the shell hitting, then depending on the distance the blast of the gun.

Shells travel faster then sound while photons travel at the speed of light.

i pose you this - if arena is so `good` why do russia etc have K5 heavy?

Because they are a part of a total system.

Shtora, Arena, Kaktus, composite armor, all designed to work together.

reply to post by BlackWidow23

I know because the average KE penetrator flies a distance greater than the ARENA's engagement range in less time than the ARENA can react.

And were forgetting something else as well, thats just DETECTION time. Engagement time is a stated .2 to .4 seconds, and at an average .3 seconds the penetrator will travel 300 meters. THATS how I know. Its simply not fast enough. Its sensors do not reach outside 50m simply because its weapon system can't reach that far.

That’s an assumption.

How do you know for sure what the tracking range of Arenas radars? You simply assume that because of the 50 meter range of the engagement envelope?

How do you know that Arena is not tied into other sensors which share information and issue commands?

Seeing as how KE penetrators travel quite a few times the speed of sound, number 3 is a dead point.

It’s nnot appoint, it’s a chain of events.

Impact? I must be missing something. How would impact help the ARENA block KE penetrators? Does it proceed to shoot the KE penetrators after they have already hit? I know I'm missing something.

Here’s a clue;

When the system is triggered, a warning signal is activated, to warn infantrymen that may be following the tank to open some distance or take cover.

What exactly is the point of sounding an alarm when the system reaction time is 0.4 seconds? 0.4 seconds gives you exactly enough time to thin Shi_ !

Smoke/heat...while this one might be valid I would like to see a source for the claim that ARENA's sensors reach out further than 50m.

Arena uses a millimeter-wavelength doppler radar. Look into why they are all the rage in meteorology, since they can litarally track the speed of dropping rain dropples, and determine their accumulative density, whic in turn can calculate total rain fall figures befreo the first drop even falls.

Of course all of the above points are still moot seeing as how the ARENA is still not designed to engage projectiles as fast as a KE penetrator

That is correct, it is not designed to effectively counter KE threats, but it does help to destabilize them before they impact Kaktus.

How do you think K-5 Kaktus detonate, upon physical impact? That would already be too late! They initiate before the penetretor makes contact, and the is precisely how it gets sliced and broken up into peaces which no longer have the stabilized penetrative power needed to punch through the armor.

ARENA cannot react to a KE long rod - the published sensor range is 50m - from your link(s); further in 0.4 seconds the round will have traveled 650 meters arena will not fire till after the round has hit.


ERA

ERA does not pre guess anything , does not pre detonate or any such rubbish - it ia just fast explosive;


you do know the difference between fast and slow explosives yes? wave form paterning and volume?


the fast exploives have an energy expansion rate in excess of 3000 m/sec - but over a small area. incoming at 1500 m/sec meets outgoing at 3000 m/sec when done properly the long rod will SHEER against the outgoing blast.

but its not perfect - the self sharpening of DU will ofc help.


please will you stop with the silly motion that ARENA can intercept a KE log rod - it cannot and will not - the sensor suite *might* detect the heat bloom from the 120mm gun - but that as much as it`ll get -




at 0.4 seconds from the target the KE round is 650 meters away

at 25 meters ythe system willl have


0.01 seconds to react - not a chance .ever.



arena simply cannot react fast enough - your making out the system can do something which frankly - the laws of phsysic says it can`t -

RADAR - is radioa waves , which travel at a set frequency vs distance -



`speed of light` - great - thats light - by the time you see or detect the flash - the round is 50% of the way towards you.


arena is a great system for dealing with ATGM and mortar and grenades - but is useless against hyersonic round - 1750 m/sec is just above MACH 5.


please understand that arena (or trophy) will not react to a KE long rod - it is NOT designed to.

btw im waiting on an email from the maker (as i did when i emailed eurojet about the EJ2000 in gripen) - and quite frankly they will laugh at the notion it can intercept a KE round.

www.defense-update.com...

While Arena-E provides an effective protection against many types of anti-tank threats, from RPGs to fast missiles such as Hellfire and TOW, it cannot defeat fast missiles (such as HVM) and tank projectiles, such as HEAT shaped charge projectiles and APFSDS penetrators. Different countermeasures are being examined to defeat these threats

Why a new MBT? If Russia expand where will it be? In Europe? WW3. China? WW3. North Korea? HAHAHAHA. Somewhere else? Maybe in the future when the US is too weak to do anything but the US is now NATO so I don't think Russia will go anywhere in the world military.

So my guess is they are doing it for money because in the missile and anti-missile age, MBT aren't worth jacksh*t. Especially when it comes to Russia.

And this new tank will surely outperform the Abrams. If the US doesn't have anything else on the shelves NOW it's over because the US won't have any money left in the next years to fund tank programs.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by Vitchilo]

reply to post by Vitchilo


Care to back up your claims of the Abrams superiority with something a bit more substantial than mindles USA Uber alles attitude?

reply to post by Harlequin


the israeli iron fist APS is being developed to intercept KE rods

and KBM are developing one as well

www.kbm.ru...

www.defense-update.com...

reply to post by iskander


KE penetrators do not emit a massive muzzle flash all along their flight path. I don't doubt that the T-95 can detect when a tank has fired, what I doubt is that it can detect and track the penetrator when its fired, and so far all evidence seems to point away from that, including the source that happens to specifically state that the ARENA cannot defeat KE penetrators.

So far I can find zero information on the T-95s radar, and I have a LOT of trouble believing that a small, tank radar can track a tiny KE penetrator any more than it can track a bird.

And NO, the T-95 is almost NEVER going to have the ridiculous army of sensors and radars all along the penetrators flight path that would be necessary to classify and track it. On the front lines, all it has is itself and datalink with other tanks along side it which won't help at all to track KE penetrators.


[edit on 22-1-2008 by BlackWidow23]

KBM themselevs state ARENA is designed to counter ATGM such as TOW and Grenade type weapons like the RPG-7 - link as above.

Originally posted by Harlequin
KBM themselevs state ARENA is designed to counter ATGM such as TOW and Grenade type weapons like the RPG-7 - link as above.

Iskander will still deny that he is wrong.
Iskander can be told a FACT and he will deny it and bring up some useless infomation that was published back in 2000 or even before.
He with out a doubt has an inferiority complex with the west!!!

except iskander is american.....

you cant have a inferiority complex withyourself.

reply to post by Harlequin

ARENA cannot react to a KE long rod - the published sensor range is 50m - from your link(s); further in 0.4 seconds the round will have traveled 650 meters arena will not fire till after the round has hit.

We’re jus going in circles here.

“the published sensor range is 50m” – please find the incorrect part of that statement and revise, or just quote a source.

sensor range…

ERA

ERA does not pre guess anything , does not pre detonate or any such rubbish - it ia just fast explosive;


you do know the difference between fast and slow explosives yes? wave form paterning and volume?

ERA is not discussed here, K-5 and Kaktus are. Please revise.

the fast exploives have an energy expansion rate in excess of 3000 m/sec - but over a small area. incoming at 1500 m/sec meets outgoing at 3000 m/sec when done properly the long rod will SHEER against the outgoing blast.

but its not perfect - the self sharpening of DU will ofc help.

Read up on multi-layer structure of K-5 and Kaktus. They have active elements.

please will you stop with the silly motion that ARENA can intercept a KE log rod - it cannot and will not - the sensor suite *might* detect the heat bloom from the 120mm gun - but that as much as it`ll get –

Will you PLEASE stop twisting my words, I have NEVER said that Arena can intercept a KE dart; on the contrary I have REPEATEDLY stated that it can’t.

In the future, please respect my time and QUOTE me when you are replying so we would not have to keep doing this.

I get a feeling that you are not reading my posts and just bounce out a reply with out bothering to actually contribute anything.

Here;

“The ARENA is designed to defeat projectiles with a speed of 70-700m/s. A KE penetrator is significantly faster. “



That’s correct. Projectile traveling up to 700m/s are destroyed, and while KE projectiles are not destroyed, their trajectory is affected which puts them off center, thus decreasing their penetrating ability.

at 0.4 seconds from the target the KE round is 650 meters away

at 25 meters ythe system willl have


0.01 seconds to react - not a chance .ever.

Have you read the source? What happens at 50 meters? What happens at 25 meters?

Why are you counting from 50 meters?

arena simply cannot react fast enough - your making out the system can do something which frankly - the laws of phsysic says it can`t –

Physics? Not even close, this is middle school stuff. Don’t count from 50!

RADAR - is radioa waves , which travel at a set frequency vs distance –

Harlequin, please, just don’t. Aether, frequencies, wavelengths, Tesla, just leave it alone, out of respect for the very existence in which we all currently reside.

`speed of light` - great - thats light - by the time you see or detect the flash - the round is 50% of the way towards you.

Oh good grief. Harlequin, 3000 m/sec is not the speed of light. It’s almost 300 MILLION meters per second.

By the way, motion detection / pixel shift patter recognition technology has advanced to a level few can actually comprehend. Face recognition is LAST century tuff.

While I was in Russia I came across an interesting peace of AI software, which continuously analyzed patters of grass/tree/branches/leaves movement under various wind conditions.

The code was written for a passive sniper detection system based on solid state CCD sensors.

It has a required “learning curve” which depends on vegetation type/density and weather patterns.

Basically it’s an AI spotter with a 360 view which learns its environment, commits it to memory, and begins to continuously analyze all movement. It has a 100% detection rate. Simply put, if something does not belong in the area, the system will identify and classify it.

It can tell fog from artificial smoke screens and so forth.

I’ll post another thread about that one.

arena is a great system for dealing with ATGM and mortar and grenades - but is useless against hyersonic round - 1750 m/sec is just above MACH 5.

1750 m/sec at the muzzle. What is its impact velocity (energy) at 1km and 2 km?

please understand that arena (or trophy) will not react to a KE long rod - it is NOT designed to.

By it self no, as a part of a system, yes, and I’m getting really tired of repeating the same old crap.

btw im waiting on an email from the maker (as i did when i emailed eurojet about the EJ2000 in gripen) - and quite frankly they will laugh at the notion it can intercept a KE round.

You actually emailed somebody a question with out understanding the bases of the topic?

Harlequin, here’s a law that never fails, crap in = crap out.

I NEVER said that Arena was designed to intercept KE rods!

Arena has 26 fragmentation charges with a total system weight of 1300kg.

First generation Drozd charge weight was 19 kilos.

Here’s a problem for you to solve.

What kind of a focused explosive/kinetic force would it take to destabilize (even by a single degre) a 5kg projectile with in a given distance of 25 meters, dimensions of which are 25mm in diameter, 800mm in length, and is traveling at 1500 m/s (+/- 10MJ)?

While Arena-E provides an effective protection against many types of anti-tank threats, from RPGs to fast missiles such as Hellfire and TOW, it cannot defeat fast missiles (such as HVM) and tank projectiles, such as HEAT shaped charge projectiles and APFSDS penetrators. Different countermeasures are being examined to defeat these threats

All true! By it self Arena can not >defeat< fast projectiles, but it does not say that it does not EFFECT them.

reply to post by manson_322

the israeli iron fist APS is being developed to intercept KE rods

That sure is true, and that’s because they’ve seen the calculations that Russians did back in the 80s. (Ukrainians sold them)

Israelis are working on the bases of Ukrainian T80 Drozd-2 system with its 19 kilo package.

Arena is two generations ahead of Drozd.

Since Harlequin seems to like physics, let’s see if he can solve the problem I’ve presented, the problem which already has an answer, both in explosive quantity/type, and shrapnel weight/size/pattern.

reply to post by BlackWidow23

KE penetrators do not emit a massive muzzle flash all along their flight path. I don't doubt that the T-95 can detect when a tank has fired, what I doubt is that it can detect and track the penetrator when its fired, and so far all evidence seems to point away from that, including the source that happens to specifically state that the ARENA cannot defeat KE penetrators.

So far I can find zero information on the T-95s radar, and I have a LOT of trouble believing that a small, tank radar can track a tiny KE penetrator any more than it can track a bird.

All that is true but think about it this way. Full tracking is not necessary simply because the engagement time is so short.

What is essential is to accurately register the blast ring from the gun. Its properties (signature committed to system memory) identify the type of ammunition fired, distance and direction. From that point the system simply fires pre-calculated number of charges in a sweeping arc.

And NO, the T-95 is almost NEVER going to have the ridiculous army of sensors and radars all along the penetrators flight path that would be necessary to classify and track it. On the front lines, all it has is itself and datalink with other tanks along side it which won't help at all to track KE penetrators.

These days “the ridiculous army of sensors and radars” are simply not necessary if people know their stuff and how to properly optimize software code.

reply to post by SKUNK2

Iskander will still deny that he is wrong.

Have you ever seen a bullet exiting supersonic stage of its flight path? You can see it with a pair of binoculars.

How about 8 kilos pushed out of a big barrel at 1750 meters per second? Let me tell you, it’s hard to miss, even from 3 kms away.

Iskander can be told a FACT and he will deny it and bring up some useless infomation that was published back in 2000 or even before.
He with out a doubt has an inferiority complex with the west!!!

tomcat ha put it well, I must have the great Seattle Northwest inferiority complex since I moved back here from LA.

My sinuses are killing me again, and these pressure headaches are really starting to annoy me.

reply to post by iskander


Have you even read the information published by KBM or looked at there website?

i don`t actually care that you say about it - KBM , thats the company that make and sell it , quite clearly state it is not designed to have an effect whatsoever against APFSDS shells ; it is designed to intercept ATGM`s and grenades.

so continue to argue with blocks of pointless text , the company that make the system have contradicted you.

ERA

Explosive Reactive Armour

you actually don`t know what you type do you?

Kontakt-5 Heavy ERA

russianarmor.info...


just read it an obviously learn what you know very little about.
this has been replaced by both Relikt and Kaktus depending on which vehicle the Heavy ERA will be applied to. But Relikt is THE new ERA tiles - does not go `bang` when a stone is thrown at it and defeats the latest M829A3 DU round.


why are you spreading dis-information? You are making things up . Read what the company that MAKES it has to say.

reply to post by Harlequin

Have you even read the information published by KBM or looked at there website?

A few years back when I first became aware of the export version Arena-E sticker price of $300K.

As I’m sure you know, export versions are always “cut back”.

AS manson_322 pointed out;

the israeli iron fist APS is being developed to intercept KE rods

i don`t actually care that you say about it - KBM , thats the company that make and sell it , quite clearly state it is not designed to have an effect whatsoever against APFSDS shells ; it is designed to intercept ATGM`s and grenades.

Yes, it is correct, the EXPORT version, Arena-E is not designed to intercept high velocity targets.

so continue to argue with blocks of pointless text , the company that make the system have contradicted you.

Please quote me where I’m referring to the export E version, because personally I don’t recall saying anything about it.

ERA

Explosive Reactive Armour

you actually don`t know what you type do you?

Kontakt-5 Heavy ERA

Well HEAVY ERA is not just chunk of good old raw C4 now is it?

May I post from the same source you’ve provided?

Anatomy of Light ERA

There’s a bit of a generation gap there now is there?

How about 2.3 ton Relikt veres 1.5 ton K-5?

ERA is a CATEGIRY, separated by different classes and generations.

Kaktus/Relikt are active integrated SYSTEMS.