Russia's next-generation T-95 tank

Originally posted by rogue1Yes a few hundred grams of HE in a shped charge configuration can easily penetrate 15mm of armour, nothing new there.

Please refer to my source, its your amateur opinion being provide not a experts one

In addition, thanks to their heavier (15 mm hard steel) front plate, the Kontakt-5 elements are harder to trigger by the precursor charges of tandem warheads, forcing the producers of tandem ATGMs to allocate more mass to precursor charge and, making an MBT more resistant to tandem HEAT warheads, as well.

You cannot provide any informsation whatsoever that an exploisve charge won't trigger the exploisve in the armour.

And what have you provided?. If you actually look at the kontakt-5 you will notice their is seperation between the frontal plate of steel and the explosive inside. Hence no viberation. One of its design principles was the spaced concept. eg clam shell reference

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by rogue1Yes a few hundred grams of HE in a shped charge configuration can easily penetrate 15mm of armour, nothing new there.

Please refer to my source, its your amateur opinion being provide not a experts one

In addition, thanks to their heavier (15 mm hard steel) front plate, the Kontakt-5 elements are harder to trigger by the precursor charges of tandem warheads, forcing the producers of tandem ATGMs to allocate more mass to precursor charge and, making an MBT more resistant to tandem HEAT warheads, as well.

LOL, right. Do you know how much explosive is in a precursor charge ? About 100g. A mortar round has anywhere from over 1kg to several kg's depending on the size. This is far greater than the 100g precursor charge.
As your own expert states, all that is needed is to increase the mass of HE, which the mortar already has plenty of
Like I said, think about things for once rather than just regurgitate stuff, which never seems to prove your point anyway.

And what have you provided?. If you actually look at the kontakt-5 you will notice their is seperation between the frontal plate of steel and the explosive inside. Hence no viberation. One of its design principles was the spaced concept. eg clam shell reference

LOl are you serious This is just another example of you having no idea what you're talking about. Spaced armour jut increases the distace slightly of the shaped charged detonation, it dosn't stop the energy being imparted to the mass behind it.

As usual you provide no information about predetonation from mortar rounds, obviously you have none. All you are doing is providing speculation taking inforamation which is either irrelevant or out of context which seems to be your fortay. We al knowwhat you're like

Originally posted by iskander
Further more, there are already concepts like short range rocket propelled flare dispensers to be used in conjunction with smoke dispensers to completely spoof IR fire and forget ATGMs.

Who cares, IIR is an old technology. All new ATGM's use millimetric wave radar, which is very hard to spoof. Chaff don't work.

I wonder if the hellfires precursor charge will go through??It's charge is 100mm

Longbow Hellfire incorporates a millimeter wave radar seeker on a Hellfire II aft section data bus. The primary advantages of the Longbow missile include adverse weather capability (rain, snow, fog, smoke, and battlefield obscurants); millimeter wave countermeasures survivability; fire-and-forget guidance, which allows the Apache Longbow to launch and then remask, thus minimizing exposure to enemy fire; ; centuryrequirements. and reprogrammability to adapt to changing threats and mission an advanced warhead capable of defeating reactive armor configurations projected into the 21st century

www.globalsecurity.org...

The larger 100 mm precursor charge has a molybdenum liner, which is initiated by a different primary charge to cater for the new Magnavox electronic safety and arming unit.

www.janes.com...

Since this is relevant to the discussion I might as well add it, say, how would that ERA fare against a 500LB JDAM hitting the top of the turret?

During the test at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., a U.S. Air Force F-16 flying at 20,000 feet scored a direct hit on an Armored Personnel Carrier (APC) moving at 25 mph. Using its onboard targeting pod, the F-16 laser-designated the APC and released the 500-pound LJDAM approximately four miles from the target.

Link

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Since this is relevant to the discussion I might as well add it, say, how would that ERA fare against a 500LB JDAM hitting the top of the turret?

LOL, well no doubt chinawhite will claim that teh Russians are developing Kontakt-6 ERA or something which will defeat a JDAM.

Let me remind you that you ahven't posted any information because you start to have a go at me. The only person your refering to is yourself which has absolutly no expertise in weaponary

Originally posted by rogue1
A mortar round has anywhere from over 1kg to several kg's depending on the size.

Oh please,

We have just gone over this a few post before. The precursor charge is a shaped charged which hits a target in a small laser like area with its full weight while the mortar is a area burst weapon which is neither concentrated nor heavy enough to set it off. If you bother to even read, the size of the mortar was already estabilshed

Light portable mortars are not designed for armoured targets but mainly bunkers light material

Spaced armour jut increases the distace slightly of the shaped charged detonation

Are you somehow unable to read?

You claimed that the sheer viberation fo the blast will set off the explosive while i said there is a space between the explosives and the armour so it would vibrate. Simply enough?. Need i explain more about what you said yourself????

As usual you provide no information about predetonation from mortar rounds, obviously you have none.

Wheres your sources??. I have provided information about the kontakt-5 and im not claiming about the detonation of a mortar round, YOU ARE

Or your providing an amateur opinion about shoe making LOL

[edit on 18-7-2006 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by rogue1
LOL, well no doubt chinawhite will claim that teh Russians are developing Kontakt-6 ERA or something which will defeat a JDAM.

There is no kontakt-6 there is the new Katus armour which is a heavy sheet of metal interlayed together with even smaller explosives on the outside. ERA was developed to defeat light and heavy ATGM. They do this by disrupting the jet being formed and hence less concentrated so it wouldn't get to the main armour

Originally posted by chinawhite
Let me remind you that you ahven't posted any information because you start to have a go at me. The only person your refering to is yourself which has absolutly no expertise in weaponary

Originally posted by rogue1

We have just gone over this a few post before. The precursor charge is a shaped charged which hits a target in a small laser like area with its full weight while the mortar is a area burst weapon which is neither concentrated nor heavy enough to set it off. If you bother to even read, the size of the mortar was already estabilshed

Light portable mortars are not designed for armoured targets but mainly bunkers light material

Oh ok, so now you're just talking about light mortars. If a mortar hits a tank it will more than likely set of the reactive armour, no one ever mentioned destroying the tank through penetration. Typical tactic of yours, completely misrepresent what people say.

Spaced armour jut increases the distace slightly of the shaped charged detonation

Are you somehow unable to read?

You claimed that the sheer viberation fo the blast will set off the explosive while i said there is a space between the explosives and the armour so it would vibrate. Simply enough?. Need i explain more about what you said yourself????[/quote]

I can read quite well, it seems you can't even read what you write. You said that the hollow space would stop any vibration which is completely wrong

Why don't you reread your previous post. HE is set off by shock, simple as that, a hollow space does not prevent that.

Wheres your sources??. I have provided information about the kontakt-5 and im not claiming about the detonation of a mortar round, YOU ARE

Hmm you said it is impervious to mortar rounds, I'm saying it is not. Is that simple enough for you. You're the one who made the orginal statement, but I hvae yet to see yourself back up anything you say. You put in quotes from various articles, not really understanding the context of them. It's kind of obvious. Like I said ou just regurgitate, you don't understand.

Find me ONE reliable articel saying this armour will not detonate from a hit by a mortar ? Comeon, you made the claim, back it up.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Let me remind you that you ahven't posted any information because you start to have a go at me. The only person your refering to is yourself which has absolutly no expertise in weaponary

I beg to differ rogue knows quite a bit about weaponsry.

Oh please,

We have just gone over this a few post before. The precursor charge is a shaped charged which hits a target in a small laser like area with its full weight while the mortar is a area burst weapon which is neither concentrated nor heavy enough to set it off. If you bother to even read, the size of the mortar was already estabilshed

next you'll tell me ERA can somehow distinguish between differnet types of explosions . the heat,pressure,blast, and fragmentation wills set it off. Even if it doesn't detonate it would destroy the ERA. another one of your fantasies of how the Kontak 5 is somehow invulnerable to mortar rounds. Why are you talking about light mortar rounds, seems you'll do anything to dodge the isssue and lead the topic astray for your antics.

Are you somehow unable to read?

Are you sure you understand how things work here.

You claimed that the sheer viberation fo the blast will set off the explosive while i said there is a space between the explosives and the armour so it would vibrate. Simply enough?. Need i explain more about what you said yourself????

You obviosly don't know what you're talking about. Did you even consider heat,pressure,blast or fragmentation???? A mortar round sure brings more blast and power to the table than a precursor charge.

Essentially all anti-tank munitions work by piercing the armor and killing the crew inside. Reactive armor can be defeated with multiple hits in the same place, as by tandem-charge weapons, which fire two or more shaped charges in rapid succession. Lacking these weapons, emulating this effect is difficult as it requires either precision artillery, luck, or close-quarter use of shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons.

en.wikipedia.org...

Or your providing an amateur opinion about shoe making LOL

pretty weak there don't you think?





[edit on 18-7-2006 by urmomma158]

Originally posted by rogue1
The only person your refering to is yourself which has absolutly no expertise in weaponary

I did not say opinion or my thoughts, i provided a independent source from a expert in tank armour and munitions, my source somehow has no creditbility?.

Repeat.
""And your same argument would apply to a article written by a expert in his field?. Theres his website, why dont you go debate him and Mr. Robb McLeod who is a expert in tank armour and munitions
""

And what you you presented apart from your own shoe making expertise?

Originally posted by rogue1Oh ok, so now you're just talking about light mortars.

You hard at reading still?. It has always been the subject

Original reply by Apollyon, then came my reply
""81mm mortar rounds will cause sympathic detonation of era type armor once striped of the explosive armor they are easy marks."""


Also your generasing between "light" ERA like the israeli blazer and the "heavy" kontakt five. One of the reasons the soviets designed kontakt-5 was to stop them from eaily being ripped off by things like heavy machine gun fire and precursor charges. eg tandem warheads were designed to defeat ERA and the kontakt -5 was designed to defeat tandem warheads.

The top one represents the israeli Blazer ERA which is explosives placed inside a thing layer of sheet metal. The second one is Kontakt-5 which has a hard exterior of a mix of metals and the explosives underneath


Other ERA like the SLERA were also designed to be more than a dispoable ERA set.

Why don't you reread your previous post. HE is set off by shock, simple as that, a hollow space does not prevent that.

And where is this shock going to come from?. We are talking about 15mm of hardened steel it has to get though. Even though ERA has been used in battle and one RPG round does not set off all of the ERA on the tank which you are claiming. Could you please provide something which says it will work on a ERA though metal because it just leaves you and nothing else left to claim it on

Hmm you said it is impervious to mortar rounds

The original claim was it will set off all the ERA on the tank. No brainer it was you who didn't understand what people were writing. NOw what did i claim?

Original quote from Apollyon
81mm mortar rounds will cause sympathic detonation of era type armor once striped of the explosive armor they are easy marks.

My quote
""Kontakt-5 is a harder type of ERA that has an hard surface on the top to stop those type of attacks""

Find me ONE reliable articel saying this armour will not detonate from a hit by a mortar ?

I did not make the claim originally, you put those words in my mouth and then went on to say that. The burden of proof lies on you since you were the first to claim such

Now, you find me ONE reliable article saying that this armour WILL detonate from a hit by a 81mm mortar

Originally posted by urmomma158
I beg to differ rogue knows quite a bit about weaponsry.

Are you another one of his accounts?. He likes to praise his own posts with mutiple accounts

Why are you talking about light mortar rounds, seems you'll do anything to dodge the isssue and lead the topic astray for your antics.

If you and rogue1 (assuming your different people) pay attention to a thread and the topic, you would have known i responed to someone who said 81mm rounds specifically and did not refer to 61mm or 120mm or 300mm he said 81mm rounds. Thats why i am talking about them

A mortar round sure brings more blast and power to the table than a precursor charge.

Be my guest, provide something that supports yourself

Originally posted by chinawhite

Why are you talking about light mortar rounds, seems you'll do anything to dodge the isssue and lead the topic astray for your antics.

If you and rogue1 (assuming your different people) pay attention to a thread and the topic, you would have known i responed to someone who said 81mm rounds specifically and did not refer to 61mm or 120mm or 300mm he said 81mm rounds. Thats why i am talking about them

Yah and ....... 81 mm mortar rounds have more than enough power to set off ERA. WHat's your point ?

A mortar round sure brings more blast and power to the table than a precursor charge.

Be my guest, provide something that supports yourself

How about simple facts as stated previously, a precursor charge is arounf 100g's of HE an 81mm mortar round carries around 1.7kg of HE. I assume you can do basic maths.

Why don't you provide something which supports your statements, or is this the typical one way street with you.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Why don't you reread your previous post. HE is set off by shock, simple as that, a hollow space does not prevent that.

And where is this shock going to come from?. We are talking about 15mm of hardened steel it has to get though. Even though ERA has been used in battle and one RPG round does not set off all of the ERA on the tank which you are claiming. Could you please provide something which says it will work on a ERA though metal because it just leaves you and nothing else left to claim it on

Am I talking to an idiot. You think 15mm of steel will will stop the shock from HE. You obviously have never taken physics. Like I said, you don't understand what you read.

Hmm you said it is impervious to mortar rounds

The original claim was it will set off all the ERA on the tank. No brainer it was you who didn't understand what people were writing. NOw what did i claim?

You claimed that a mortar round would not set off the ERA, can't you remember what you wrote. You claim it is impervious t mortars, once again for the 3rd or 4th time you are completely wrong and still haven't prvided anything to back up your claims.

I did not make the claim originally, you put those words in my mouth and then went on to say that. The burden of proof lies on you since you were the first to claim such

Read your posts, it is exactly what you're claim.

Now, you find me ONE reliable article saying that this armour WILL detonate from a hit by a 81mm mortar

LOL, how about common sense and physics. You find me one saying that an 81mm round wont destroy ERA it lands on. You have put up a feeble attmept at a smoke screen, but nothing you have provided proves what you're claiming. Most of us are used to this from you though. You prove, the thing is you can't.

For the third time
PROVIDE SOMETHING!!!!!!

Because rogue1 doesn't have any sources he trys to divert people with his insults

- Am I talking to an idiot
- you don't understand what you read.
- can't you remember what you wrote
- You have put up a feeble attmept at a smoke screen



And changing your statements half way. You were not evening talking about shockwaves at the start but trying to argue the similarity between HE and shaped charged HE. Comparing how heavy a shaped round and a HE mortar really is the way to compare shock waves

""so now you're saying that it can distinguish between normal HE and a shaped charged HE"""

Yeah anymore BS you like to change

Originally posted by rogue1
You think 15mm of steel will will stop the shock from HE.

Stop the insults and PROVE something. If you know more about physics than me, you come up with a answer to this instead of refering to vague references

You claimed that a mortar round would not set off the ERA

I was quoting Apollyon in stating that an 81mm mortar wont set off the kontakt-5 ERA. Your the one saying mortar rounds without any basis. Its you who is claiing something

You have put up a feeble attmept at a smoke screen, but nothing you have provided proves what you're claiming.

Coming from someone who has not provided anything and claimed it first. Your so funny, first you were talking about the amount of explosives in each device and now its "shockwave". Yeah, I like proof

[edit on 19-7-2006 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by rogue1
Yah and ....... 81 mm mortar rounds have more than enough power to set off ERA. WHat's your point ?

LOL changing argument again?. First you were talking about a heavy mortar and accusing me of changing the argument now your change again

""Oh ok, so now you're just talking about light mortars."""

Yeah yeah, putting up your smoke screen to confuse people into thinking you said that

How about simple facts as stated previously, a precursor charge is arounf 100g's of HE an 81mm mortar round carries around 1.7kg of HE.

100gs????

Yeah in a RPG?

[edit on 19-7-2006 by chinawhite]

I think it's obvious from your posts, who knows what and who doesn't, lets just leave it at that
You provide nothing to back up your claims, I rely on logic and physics - not supposition and fantasy. You mad ethe claim an 81mm mortar won't set off ERA, yet you cannot provide any such inofrmtaion. the onus is on YOU to prove what you claim.

The fact that you don't understand the relationship of shockwaves and explosive detonation shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of explosive detonation. Hence, there is no point discussing it with you until you educate yourself.

[edit on 19-7-2006 by rogue1]

Originally posted by rogue1
I rely on logic and physics

Funny since i saw no logic nor any equations to back that up. First it was the amount of HE needed to get into the steel, which was disproved, then it was a shock wave. Because you are so inconsitant with your claims you try to use personal attacks as a way to hide them

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by chinawhite


Are you another one of his accounts?. He likes to praise his own posts with mutiple accounts

yes and im sure you can provide something stating it's not possible for an 81mm or larger mortar to set off or at least destroy the ERA

If you and rogue1 (assuming your different people) pay attention to a thread and the topic, you would have known i responed to someone who said 81mm rounds specifically and did not refer to 61mm or 120mm or 300mm he said 81mm rounds. Thats why i am talking about them

Well 81mm rounds aren't the only morthar rounds going to be fired at a tank

Be my guest, provide something that supports yourself

They're obviosly going to be packed with more explosives than a precursor charge. Loo like morthars would be effective with only a 100g's of explosives.

www.globalsecurity.org...
www.globalsecurity.org...

You provide nothing it's common sense mortars have considerably more explosive power than a precursor charge.

Pretty desperate statement you made there. if it doesn't detonate the mortar would destroy the ERA.

besides precursor warheads can vary greatly with armor.

The AGM-114F is basically an AGM-114B/C missile with a forward warhead module inserted between the existing SAL seeker section and main warhead. This additional module contains a small precursor explosive charge and a detonation delay spool. This modification has increased the missile's length to 1.8 m and launch weight to 48.6 kg. This version has a minimum range of 1.5 km and a maximum range of 8 km.

The AGM-114K Hellfire 2 is a totally redesigned missile and although it is identical in appearance to the basic AGM-114A, most of the internal components apart from the main warhead, and propulsion and control units have been changed. The new glass-domed section contains an improved semi-active laser seeker, digital autopilot and guidance electronics, precursor warhead with initiating charge, attitude gyros and power supply. The original guidance section has been replaced with a new unit called the control interface group and contains an electronic safe and arm unit, thermal battery and toroidal pneumatic accumulator. AGM-114K is 1.63 m long, has a body diameter of 178 mm, a wing span of 0.33 m and a launch weight of 45.7 kg. It is fitted with an improved tandem warhead in order to defeat explosive reactive armour. The larger 100 mm precursor charge has a molybdenum liner, which is initiated by a different primary charge to cater for the new Magnavox electronic safety and arming unit. The updated SAL seeker has been hardened against electro-optical countermeasures (EOCM) and has improved target discrimination tracking the target rather than backscatter from dust and water vapour. The digital autopilot, based on an Intel microprocessor, provides more accurate control during short-range engagements, and permits trajectory shaping allowing Hellfire 2 to fly beneath cloud cover so that its seeker does not lose target lock on. It also ensures that the terminal phase, dive trajectory remains constant at the optimum angle, regardless of range. It is reported that Hellfire 2 can engage targets between 0.5 and 9 km. The second AGM-114K Hellfire 2 missile version has a 12.5 kg HE blast/fragmentation warhead for use against ship targets and this increases the missile weight to 47.9 kg.

www.janes.com...



[edit on 19-7-2006 by urmomma158]

[edit on 19-7-2006 by urmomma158]