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Iraqis Endure Worse Conditions Than Under Saddam, UN Survey Finds

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posted on May, 21 2005 @ 08:42 AM
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I think its kinda funny that...

....A country that produced such wonderfull vacation spots as... Compton California, Brookland Queens, Miami and Washington DC. Also responsible for the US health care system.. where you get sick, lose everything you ever aquired and probablly get killed anyways by what made you sick in the first place, or the doctor who was suppose to make you feel better. Lets not forget the public school system, where every day is an exciting adventure in survival...

... went to another country and turned it in to a hell hole too, and everyone is surprised by this.

Or this one... this one I like too...

"Waitaminute.... " says Joe American "... you mean to tell me that we bombed a country's hospitals, power stations, and schools... just completely ruined their infastructure and then went on to kill most of the people in the country who had been running things there for the last 10 to 20 years... and WE SPENT BILLIONS destroying the place and now everyone there is SUFFERING?! How can that be!? I'm frelling outraged here! I mean, the fact that we had been lied to about the reason for the war in the first place was bad enough, but you mean to tell me now that war is hell apparently and innocent people actually die in wars and the repercussions of war reverberate for sometimes decades later and and and... the countries where the wars take place are sometimes ruined?? There must be some mistake here.. we CAN'T be responsible for this can we? Saddam must have had something to do with why this has all gone so wrong. What was that? You say IRAN is responsible for all of the suffering in IRAQ? Well now you are starting to make sense to me.. there must be a connection there since both countries start with the same three letters.Keep talking, I like what you are telling me now so I will listen more carefully to you and blow off anyone who tries to tell me anything different."

(that was sarcasm btw.. mostly all of it I'd say)

-VMX




posted on May, 21 2005 @ 09:54 AM
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Here is some more News, regarding the title of this thread - a little older, but still they are to the point.

Children 'starving' in new Iraq



Jean Ziegler, a UN specialist on hunger who prepared the report, blamed the worsening situation in Iraq on the war led by coalition forces.

Increasing numbers of children in Iraq do not have enough food to eat and more than a quarter are chronically undernourished, a UN report says.

Malnutrition rates in children under five have almost doubled since the US-led invasion - to nearly 8% by the end of last year, it says.

That point is aimed clearly at the US, but Washington, which has sent a large delegation to the Human Rights Commission, declined to respond to the charges, says the BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Geneva.

"The silent daily massacre by hunger is a form of murder," Mr Ziegler said. "It must be battled and eliminated."

Some 17,000 children die every day from hunger-related diseases.

source:
BBC News

So, what are this children goin to say to America before they die from Hunger?

Thanks for saving us from the evil Dictator?

Right now the cost of War in Iraq is costing roughly 171 billion dollars - that could have fully funded global anti-hunger efforts for whole 7 years! Wow imagine that.

Or these 171 billion dollars could be spent that every child in the world was given basic immunizations for 57 years.

Or they could have fully funded world-wide AIDS programs for 17 years.

But NO - we need more weapons, more guns, more tanks, more warplanes, more attak helicopters, more aircraft carriers, ballistic missile nuclear submarines - in order to More effectively kill each other.

Who really cares for the hungry people of the world - most of them children?


"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

Dwight Eisenhower (1890-1969) - American statesman (34th US president: 1953-61), Supreme Allied Commander in WWmore II, Europe.


cjf

posted on May, 21 2005 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
I think this study meant to address overall well-being rather than murder/death rates. But take into account bombings and such and maybe the murder/death rates are comparable to Saddam-era?
[edit on 21-5-2005 by Jamuhn]


Yes, the survey is being taken completely out of context.

a) The sample set of data was surveyed (2004) on the 11th and12th month after the ‘major’ offensive was declared over.

b) The data is compared to ‘opinioned’ conditions 20-25 years ago in Iraq, (1980’s).

c) The purpose of the survey was to benchmark for further research.

Quoting from the sources named in the article:




The survey “not only allows for a good understanding of socio-economic conditions in Iraq, but will also be a building block for further analysis that will certainly benefit the development and reconstruction processes in Iraq,” Mr. de Mistura said.

“It will be especially helpful in addressing the grave disparities – urban and rural as well as those between the governorates – revealed by the survey, in a more prioritized and targeted fashion.”
UN News


Another.....



"Mr Salih said that the condition of his country was particularly tragic given its huge oil wealth and access to water. He insisted that the blame lay with Saddam’s regime, which had embarked on two wars against its neighbours, persecuted its population and provoked sanctions. “Undeniably, from the perspective of many, the former regime’s aggressive policies, its wars, its repression and mismanagement of the economy are an important part of why we are here today,” he said.
UK Times on Line


Another more to the point....



BBC Article referring to the data: Living conditions for Iraqis have plunged over the past 25 years….”

BBC News


From the poster's orginal 'news' source.



May 18 - Responses to a detailed survey conducted by a United Nations agency and the Iraqi government indicate that everyday conditions for Iraqis in the aftermath of the 2003 US-led invasion have deteriorated at an alarming rate, with huge numbers of people lacking adequate access to basic services and resources such as clean water, food, health care, electricity, jobs and sanitation.


Very misleading information contained in the header, I am surprised the original author included sources. Missing the spirit, purposes and interpretation methods of the tab set of the data collected; the article is completely spun out of context, just more agenized, inciting crap for a specific target market soak in.


.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 11:17 AM
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cjf

I dont understand your point.



IS Iraq a Better place today, than it was under Saddam?

Are conditions Improving?

The United States created this situation, and what are they doing, to deal with it?

Part of the problem has been constant leadership change - with first American and then Iraqi officials - coming in "with their own vision, and trying to change everything," says Dr. Awqati. "Before, despite the dictatorship, there was a system, but now there is chaos. You can't bring a whole country crumbling down, and then tell people to work."

Yep - Chaos is the word I was looking for.

"America can control this situation, because America is the first country in the world - all Iraqis thought the US would solve every problem in Iraq, but it's just promises," says Dari al-Adwan, Yarmouk's deputy director. After Baghdad fell, an early stop of the first US administrator of Iraq, Gen. Jay Garner, was at Yarmouk.

"He promised us he would rehabilitate this hospital, and turn it into an Iraqi model for the Middle East," says Dr. al-Adwan, a staff doctor at the time. "But it was just words."

"It's not better than Saddam's era," says the doctor. "Despite all this money in to the system, people see no change [in services]. A lot of people are dying, for lack of simple drugs."

The Doctor say, its not better than the Saddam era.

Sure, there is Money going to Iraq, like it used to - but where is it going, now?

Do the People of Iraq get it - to rebuild Health infrastructure?

“If you compare this to the situation in the 1980s, you will see a major deterioration,” said Barham Salih, the Iraqi Planning Minister, who described life for Iraqis as tragic.

The report highlighted falling standards of education and healthcare, which had been among the highest in the Arab world but were now among the lowest. The number of Iraqi mothers who die in labour reached 93 in every 100,000 births, compared with 14 in Jordan and 32 in Saudi Arabia.

Nope. The falling standards of education and healthcare, show that this money is not going to help the Iraqi people.

The report said that unemployment was now more than 18 per cent, compared with just over 3 per cent in the 1980s. Basic services have also collapsed. Some 85 per cent of households complained of electricity cuts and 29 per cent relied on generators. Only 54 per cent of Iraqi families had clean water. Only 37 per cent were connected to a sewage network, compared with 75 per cent in the 1980s.


cjf

posted on May, 21 2005 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
I dont understand your point.

And that is not my intent, and I understand your points, my point was the socio-economic plural data set as presented is sampled and positioned in a collected known and understood statistical trough; as well it should be inside its' purpose, to discern and determine needs and wants for continued improvement in and of a shattered ‘system’ (benchmarking). The ‘spirit’ of the datum and its tabs are to provide a benchmark for a timeline for improvement so it can be created and measured. This is why an opinioned survey was preformed culminated with data which may or may not be correct; however best at hand. This is an opinioned survey as well as functionally fielded to target the true needs and 'perceptive bad'.

By the reports own admission in Volume II, no data was collected over the past decade, and as to the specific nature of the questioning any data collected prior to that may be tainted. The report also states to the idea under Saddam these types of intensive polls were never allowed as he was under the microscope for human right violations etc. The report allures to point out that if any data set was to be used prior it would be askew, incorrect thus incorrect data. This being reinforced by rural vs. urban comparisons and the creation of averages. Nothing in Iraq’s past has ever been done to weight the averages from differing communities to wit bringing detailed feed back and opinions together in the manner as such done by the UN Development Programme etal.. my hat is off to them for this historic undertaking. This is a move in the right direction based upon a good educated guess, that said:


Some of the findings will come as no surprise to Iraqis, who have grown used to poverty, unemployment, power cuts, open sewers and an overwhelmed healthcare system
Times On Line


Originally posted by Souljah
IS Iraq a Better place today, than it was under Saddam?

Yes; although your question is very, very general, the answer is general


Iraq is a country that was ruled during several decades by privileged army and security forces with strong family ties. These forces under the control of dictators, like Saddam as the last one, subjected Iraq’s population to most inhuman and barbaric treatment including systematic discrimination, deportation, exile, torture, sexual abuse, executions, and use of weapons of mass-destruction. It imposed a war on Iran resulting in more than one million dead, more than two millions injured and handicaps, and several millions of displaced persons. The invasion of Kuwait left thousands of casualties in Kuwait’s and more than one hundred and fifty thousands dead Iraqis. The crackdown of Kurdish and Shiit’s uprisings are estimated each in more than one hundred thousand life lost. The material loss from the Saddam’s tyranny and aggression is beyond imaginations. R&R of Iraq, 2004, pdf.

The regime is gone and the world is thankfully watching.

Originally posted by Souljah
Are conditions Improving?

Yes; again your question is very, very general by the answer is to improvement:


But he vowed that the new Government would address the formidable problems highlighted by the report. “I hope we will be able to bring a model into Iraq that will turn Iraq from the land of mass graves, lack of development, child mortality and illiteracy into a land of peace, stability and prosperity,” he said. ----Salih
Times On Line


Originally posted by Souljah
The United States created this situation, and what are they doing, to deal with it?

As far as the US 'creating this situation': Not including UN1441, etc. the question is an oversimplifiction:


Mr Salih said that the condition of his country was particularly tragic given its huge oil wealth and access to water. He insisted that the blame lay with Saddam’s regime, which had embarked on two wars against its neighbours, persecuted its population and provoked sanctions. “Undeniably, from the perspective of many, the former regime’s aggressive policies, its wars, its repression and mismanagement of the economy are an important part of why we are here today,” he said
Times On Line


Originally posted by Souljah
"He promised us he would rehabilitate this hospital, and turn it into an Iraqi model for the Middle East," says Dr. al-Adwan, a staff doctor at the time. "But it was just words."

"It's not better than Saddam's era," says the doctor. "Despite all this money in to the system, people see no change [in services]. A lot of people are dying, for lack of simple drugs."

The Doctor say, its not better than the Saddam era.

Sure, there is Money going to Iraq, like it used to - but where is it going, now?

Do the People of Iraq get it - to rebuild Health infrastructure?

Perhaps:


Nearly all health facilities have had makeovers - overdue paint jobs and clean-ups. Salaries have also risen from $20 per month before the war to $300 or even higher



A further burden on the new health minister, Abdel Mutalib Mohammad, and the other newly appointed heads of the Iraqi bureaucracy, is endemic corruption, which some estimate to be as high as 70 percent
CS Monitor


Originally posted by Souljah
“If you compare this to the situation in the 1980s, you will see a major deterioration,” said Barham Salih, the Iraqi Planning Minister, who described life for Iraqis as tragic.

--[snip]--

Nope. The falling standards of education and healthcare, show that this money is not going to help the Iraqi people.

Microcosmically anything can be picked apart, and changes are happening for the betterment of the people. The big picture for Iraq is different from stopping time and looking only at the moment and pointing fingers. Stats are stats first and these stats have no provable, factual, concrete starting point in this case other than general 'opinion' and a mix of probable facts. Opinions are just that but changes have been made, and are being made for the positive, the production of such a report is evidence enough.


.



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