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NEWS: Russia to Use Force if US Starts Space Arms Race

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posted on May, 20 2005 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by subz

Next time I forward you to a moderator and place you on my ignore list.

Try to stick to the topic eh?
..........


For what, telling the truth? Should i also forward you to a moderator for some of your responses towards me in the past?

If you would address these topics without your obvious disdain towards anything having to do with the US, perhaps we could be discussing things in a different manner.

You want to blame once more the US for this, yet you give both Russia and China an excuse for them secretly going after the weaponization of space...portraying it once more as "it is all the US fault"...




posted on May, 20 2005 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by subz

From ATS T&C
2.) You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

Next time I forward you to a moderator and place you on my ignore list.

Try to stick to the topic eh?


Subbie, your anti-American rhetoric is known to be abusive and hateful, with the tendency to harass, threaten or attack pro-American sentiments here.


You are in an American site open to all around the world, the ATS.com website is being maintained somewhere in Idaho.


Originally posted by subz
I have to respectfully disagree Seekerof. Not reaffirming the treaty is not the same as withdrawing from the treaty. The treaty is quite clear on the process of withdrawal from it.


Subbie, the Outer Space Treaty is a Cold War relic and should be trashed. It was made in an era which the notions of manned space stations in outer space and on the Moon were extensively discussed and put forward between two competing superpowers and their allies under heightened tensions and an accelerating space race. It was truly a bipolar era in a bipolar world when the Outer Space Treaty was drawn up.

It is no relevant to the present political circumstances when it comes to the future of space exploration and space defense. China have every intention to put up a manned space station on the Moon, with all the hallmarks of a military operation within two decades or so.

Plus the rise of private space enterprises would deem the Outer Space Treaty unnecessary since private companies, investors and big businesses with ties to the industrial-military complex around the world could make real estate in space a potential profitable venue for future corporate, non-government and military projects.



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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This is not an American owned website.

Registrant:
Gray, Simon

1 Sackville Close
Swindon, Wiltshire SN3 3EJ
UK
Phone: 999 999 9999
Fax: 999 999 9999

Domain Name: ABOVETOPSECRET.COM

Here is a cool article called Peace Is War concerning weapons in space.


[edit on 20-5-2005 by cryptorsa1001]



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 10:29 PM
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Here is a link to one of the Sino-Russian treaties. This one dealing with the space program.


"The Chinese space program is a military program using military hardware and overseen by the military," said Charles Vick, space policy analyst for the Washington, D.C.-based Federation of American Scientists.

For now, NASA can only watch the growing relationship from afar. A March 2000 e-mail obtained by Florida Today through the Freedom of Information Act revealed one way NASA Administrator Dan Goldin is learning about the growing friendship between the massive neighbors. The document was obtained through an appeal process after NASA first denied its release.

"When I was in Moscow last week, there was a public announcement by Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov that Russia and China are negotiating a deal for Russia to develop a manned space craft for China, and for joint use of Russia's GLONASS satellite navigation system," Jesco von Puttkamer said in his e-mail.


Excerpted from.
www.space.com...

The Chinese space program is owned, controlled and funded by the PLA. Any intentions they have for a space program has everything to do with the militarization of space.

Here is some more interesting information from that same link.


China sought Russian help in 1995 to jumpstart its manned space program. The Chinese Shenzhou spacecraft is a larger version of the Russian Soyuz.

China wants to launch its first astronauts next year, then build a space station. The communist program also calls for an eventual moon base. The third unmanned test of the Chinese space capsule could launch within weeks.

Complicating things further is a tense relationship between Beijing and Washington that shows no signs of changing. Russia and China have condemned U.S. plans to build a missile defense system and have stepped up relations throughout the two governments. Both have pledged to build up and improve their own nuclear weapons stockpiles.

Human rights issues and China's refusal to stop selling ballistic missiles to other nations keeps NASA from inviting the Chinese into the space station program.


Excerpted from above link.

The Russians are making this deal partly because of the money they are making from the Chinese, but either way, both countries' goals are pretty much the same as that of the US. The Russians know very well that the Chinese have a military plan for space, but they blame the US, claiming the US is the only one seeking to weaponize space so that they can get more time to get their own programs underway before the US does. At the end, both the Chinese and the Russians will militarize space, and put weapons in space.


---edited for errors---

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 11:03 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Any intentions they have for a space program has everything to do with the militarization of space.


Well, if you consider building spy satellites a militarization of space, than the US is way ahead!


Vick said Chinese astronauts orbiting in a space station could make up for the country's lack of photographic spy satellites.

"I would expect them to be doing nothing else other than photo-reconnaissance and intelligence gathering," Vick said. "They will do some civilian and scientific work, that will be the front."

Rick Fisher, China analyst for the Washington, D.C.-based Jamestown Foundation, said China's People's Liberation Army will look to the manned program to make its missiles and rockets more reliable and to test electronics that would be used in new spy satellites.


Here's some more propaganda to back up your own:

"For its propaganda purposes, the manned space program is worth its weight in gold to the communist party," he said. "The manned space program is first and foremost a nationalist tool, which the communist party will use to strengthen its nationalistic credentials."

Statements from the Chinese government signal similar sentiments.

The government issued its space program blueprint in November 2000, showing the nation regards the effort much the way the Soviets and Americans saw their own during the Cold War: as an avenue to show off technical prowess.


Obviously the weaponization of space is inevitable, but as of now, it seems the US is the only one expressing interest in immediate weaponization. But, instead of of spreading false accusations, just tell the truth. You would rather have the US weaponize space than another country you are not a part of. While I'd rather not see any nation weaponize space (frankly I don't trust my government with a firecracker at the moment), since it's going to happen anyway, I'd rather it be America first. Obviously, there are many hesitations about this previous statement.

[edit on 20-5-2005 by Jamuhn]



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Well, if you consider building spy satellites a militarization of space, than the US is way ahead!


You don't think the Chinese have spy satellites in space?

There are some US corporations that even have deals with the Chinese to launch their satellites...


In October 1956, Mao Tse-tung ordered the start of China’s space program. Four years later, on 5 November 1960, China launched its first rocket, becoming the fourth country, behind Germany, the United States, and the Soviet Union, to enter space. Today China routinely launches space satellites for Western companies, including US corporations, and is increasing its share of the global space launch market. But the Chinese also use the technology and assistance gained in foreign ventures for PRC military applications. And a principal organization in China’s space effort, the China Great Wall Industry Corporation, has been identified by the US State Department as engaging in missile technology proliferation activities.


Excerpted from.
www.au.af.mil...



Originally posted by Jamuhn
Here's some more propaganda to back up your own:


Propaganda?... how exactly is it propaganda?

The PLA owns everything in China, including their space program...and the PLA is the military in CHina.... Since 1956 the Chinese have created their own space program, and today's PLA has not changed that much from the 1956 PLA.


Originally posted by Jamuhn
Obviously the weaponization of space is inevitable, but as of now, it seems the US is the only one expressing interest in immediate weaponization.


Really?



The newest battlefield for China will be in space. From a defensive standpoint China is seeking to block the United States from developing its own anti-satellite weapons and space-based ballistic missile defense systems. Beijing and Moscow, through diplomatic channels, have introduced a draft United Nations Treaty that would ban conventional and non-nuclear weapons in space. Meanwhile, from an offensive standpoint, China is developing its own weapons. The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) is experimenting with directed energy weapons that can kill satellites and in theoretical research is considering particle beam weapons that can engage missiles in flight. The Chinese military is also considering the use of “piggy-back satellites” and “micro-satellites” that can be used as kinetic energy weapons to destroy enemy satellites or spacecraft, or can attach themselves to enemy satellites to jam them.
.....................
In the view of People’s Liberation Army defense experts, “whoever has control (or ‘hegemony’) over space, will also have the ability to help or hinder and affect ‘ground’ mobility and air, sea and space combat.”[xvii] And while calling for the “peace-loving nations and peoples of the world to oppose the “weaponization of space,” The PLA continues to “heed the call of Communist Party Central Military Commission Chairman Jiang Zemin for China to become a strong military technologically.


Excerpted from.
www.heritage.org...


Originally posted by Jamuhn
But, instead of of spreading false accusations, just tell the truth.
...............


What in the world are you talking about? Where did i not tell the truth? Care to enlighten us where I lied and provide evidence?...

What false accusations?.... The PLA is the People's liberation Army of China...it is the military of China and it owns and funds the Chinese space program...and the Russians are helping them in part because they can make money out of this.


[edit on 21-5-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
You don't think the Chinese have spy satellites in space?

There are some US corporations that even have deals with the Chinese to launch their satellites...


Your original article stated they did, but obviously it isn't enough, seeing as the articles you are quoting state they are still launching these.



Propaganda?... how exactly is it propaganda?

Read below.



Really?

Yes it is propaganda.


Excerpted from.
www.heritage.org...

Can you think for yourself or just quote from an article? I already stated weaponization was inevitable. But the fact is, China can't even put a person in space. Ooooo, they are right on our heels!


From your article:

Military thinkers in China are probably correct--the weaponization of space is inevitable. The communications and reconnaissance satellites in orbit have already militarized space. Probably the most effective global ballistic missile defense system that could be deployed will be dependent on space-based interceptors and lasers. The outlines of Beijing’s draft treaty prohibiting the deployment of weapons in space and attacks on space bodies is merely a delaying action to limit the effectiveness of United States ballistic missile defense programs.

So what exactly are you trying to argue?



What in the world are you talking about? Where did i not tell the truth? Care to enlighten us where I lied and provide evidence?...

I'll do you one better, I'll give you evidence and I'll think for myself. Hey, what a concept, you should try it sometime!

Let's see I believe you stated:

Originally posted by Muaddib
Any intentions they have for a space program has everything to do with the militarization of space.


Nothing but propaganda. I guess you can think for yourself. At least enough to make up your own evidence to spread your vehemence for everything outside of the American borders.

I believe right above your last response I quoted one of your articles. Did you forget already?

"For its propaganda purposes, the manned space program is worth its weight in gold to the communist party," he said. "The manned space program is first and foremost a nationalist tool, which the communist party will use to strengthen its nationalistic credentials."

Statements from the Chinese government signal similar sentiments.

The government issued its space program blueprint in November 2000, showing the nation regards the effort much the way the Soviets and Americans saw their own during the Cold War: as an avenue to show off technical prowess.


You sure are selective in your propaganda.

[edit on 21-5-2005 by Jamuhn]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 12:14 AM
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So the Chinese are not communists? How in the world is that propaganda?

Do i think for myself? sure i do.

How can you not see it... the PLA it's the military, the Chinese have no intentions of only having a peaceful use for space...

If the US military was making a military space agency, like the chinese, you think they wouldn't be trying to weaponize space, or to use this program for any military use?....

It seems that you are the one not thinking clearly here Jamuh.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
So the Chinese are not communists? How in the world is that propaganda?


And I said this where?



Do i think for myself? sure i do.


Nice comeback



How can you not see it... the PLA it's the military, the Chinese have no intentions of only having a peaceful use for space...


Obviously, but you didn't even consider the possibility of peaceful intentions in your original post. You only considered that China was doing it for evil purposes.



If the US military was making a military space agency, like the chinese, you think they wouldn't be trying to weaponize space, or to use this program for any military use?....

But the US is trying to weaponize space so......Did I ever say other countries wouldn't try to weaponize space? Oh, gee, I don't think I did. The US seems to be the only ones immediately capable though.


It seems that you are the one not thinking clearly here Jamuh.


Because I proved that the "evidence" you gave was not sufficient to establish the validity of your arguments? But seriously, all we have to go on are other people's words and ultimately none of us have any clue about what's going on, so I don't know why we are arguing anyway.

It's like we argue with what "they" choose to give us.

I guess some will continue to believe that everything is as it seems.


[edit on 21-5-2005 by Jamuhn]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 12:23 AM
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Second reply. It's all nonsense. Just a controlled nuclear Country flexing their non existant or miniscule muscles.

What force?, putnik (putin) is to KGB smart to be stupid and even slightly allow a threat against United States (therefore Britain) to even suggest he has any kind of power to threeaten the west.

Between Russia and China they will both have hands full even threatening the west. China should have MFN - Most Favored Nation status revoked - # one. Then United States can againt make and sell their own products.

Dallas



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:58 AM
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Weaponising space is not simply a US vs Russia issue, because I think everyone agrees or suspects that China will do it sooner or later anyway.

So doesn't it make sense to try to stay a few steps ahead them?

This has nothing to do with Bush 'being a moron' or the US being hypocritical about weapons development and treaties. It's about maintaining a lead which would otherwise quickly disappear and we'd wake up one day to realise that China is now the dominant force in space.

Doing nothing is not an option.

Incidentally I wonder if Putin will warn of using force against China when China starts considering the launch of potentially offensive military satellites?



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:33 AM
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Trying to understand what the hell space has to do with anything here?, seems China and Russia are beginning to be real threats and I don't care about China's billion man army - they will either lose or draw against United States of America. Without going nuclear.

They play a little game (eg N Korea),(eg Taiwan) and play it well.
But there wealth is ever-escalating and so why spoil it when 85% of their income is from America and Canada?

Just take away China's MFN (Most Favored Nation) status. That will be that and all will have to see what they do or even can do. Well, perhap's they can work toward selling more of their goods to Russia?

Dallas



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 04:21 AM
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Why does everything always have to be dumbed down to an US vs Them argument, where each side tries to prove its angelic, blame-free status while demonizing the other? Newsflash folks, there's no black and white in this world, it's all shades of grey. Unscrupulous governments have already turned the world into a cesspool of violence and petty rivalry on an international scale, and now they want to take it to space. Welcome to Cold War II.

I grew up dreaming of a future where we would all work together to explore space and advance human civilization. With our advances in technology, we have the chance to break free from our separatism and our nationalistic mindsets, but instead space is being viewed as just another region to compete for national military superiority. Even the ISS has turned into a farce of bickering and mistrust. Doesn't anyone see the irony in this? Any government that wants to militarize space is morally bankrupt. And yet, we are here arguing in favour of these warmongers purely because of our misguided, propaganda-fed, brainwashed national pride, which only serves to make government think that we actually want this. We should be telling them that we don't want this kind of attitude to international relations and they should be working together for the betterment of the whole human race.

It's a vicious cycle, this competing for superiority and finger-pointing. Pfft, maybe it's a good thing and we'll all wipe each other out so that things can start afresh.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 06:07 AM
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Listen Muaddib, in 7 posts in this thread you've brought up the Chinese in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!

Ive noted in previous threads that you have a blatent anti-Chinese bias. Can you please explain to me why exactly its ok for you to post 7 posts here and they all refer to China in some way. When I get flamed by you for talking about my views on the United States in a thread that clearly is about "Russia to Use Force if US Starts Space Arms Race".

Since when do you have the monopoly on the righteous path? Why am I not entitled to post my views on the United States in threads where the United States is discussed?

You can forward me to the moderators when ever I start attacking you if you like. You'll be hard pushed to find where I become abusive.


Originally posted by the_oleneo
Subbie, your anti-American rhetoric is known to be abusive and hateful, with the tendency to harass, threaten or attack pro-American sentiments here.

I'd like to see you prove any of that rant the_oleneo, I really would. You seem to think you can post sweeping statements like that with no evidence. Well try and sully my reputation as much as you like but until you can back it up with evidence I respectfully ask you to keep your accusation to yourself.

BOT again,

The NPT is also a relic of the Cold War eh? Or what about the Geneva Convention? People want to see both those scrapped. Why not? If we can scrap one treaty why should another treaty be valid? The ABM treaty was scrapped for the very same reasons some advocate the scrapping of the OST. Why is it that people can claim that their governments are more trustworthy than any one elses. Absolute power corrupts and power corrupts absolutely. That applies to dicatatorships AND democracies.

wecomeinpeace, I just love your posts and thats why I nominated you for ATSNN council member
You see through the bs and see that no one should be advocating the use of space for military purposes. I for one whole heartedly agree with you but because I dare say the 'emperor has no clothes' and that the United States is clearly wrong here I get slated for it. When in actual fact I know for sure I would say the very same thing for any government that tried to do this, Britain included.

[edit on 21/5/05 by subz]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 06:47 AM
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What a pity that countries can't spend a tenth of this effort on making their citizen's lives better. Imagine the US and it's allies vs. Russia and China and their allies, vs. the European Union, vs. African Nations, etc. all desperately trying to be the world leader in public health, education, standard of living, human rights, etc. What if the military and black budgets were used to fund hospitals and drug research, entice the world's leading minds to our universities, and fund research on clean energy?

What a concept. Nah, I'm just kidding myself. It's much better to rule the world by force and fear of reprisals. Then if anybody starts to look too smart or well fed, we can just kill them.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 06:49 AM
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they should be working together for the betterment of the whole human race.


You are right but it will unfortunately never happen. As long as you have communist nations with leaders that want to take over other countries for their benefit you are not going to have peace and cooperation. Don’t think for a minute that if China and or Russia could get the upper hand in space that they wouldn’t do it and then use that to their advantage in world affairs.

Since the weaponizing of space has happened and is going to continue I want the US to be the dominant force in space. The US does not have a perfect record but we have shown restraint. We could have taken over a large portion of the planet after ww11 since we had the bomb and nobody else did but never took advantage of that fact. The US did not nuke China when China attacked the US in Korea.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
What a pity that countries can't spend a tenth of this effort on making their citizen's lives better. Imagine the US and it's allies vs. Russia and China and their allies, vs. the European Union, vs. African Nations, etc. all desperately trying to be the world leader in public health, education, standard of living, human rights, etc. What if the military and black budgets were used to fund hospitals and drug research, entice the world's leading minds to our universities, and fund research on clean energy?

What a concept. Nah, I'm just kidding myself. It's much better to rule the world by force and fear of reprisals. Then if anybody starts to look too smart or well fed, we can just kill them.

Thank god im not just the only idealist around here. If I had any WATS votes left this month you'd get one for that.

[edit on 21/5/05 by subz]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 07:39 AM
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The Russian mega-booster Energia attempted to orbit a Polyus laser battle station during the Gorbechev era; they still have a military general staff that views the U.S. as the primary enemy.

I do not think the U.S. plans on orbiting 'WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION"
but does have an interest in defending it's fleet of communication, survailance, and navigational assets in orbit.

To not have a deterrant to such attacks is to invite them.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by subz
I'd like to see you prove any of that rant the_oleneo, I really would. You seem to think you can post sweeping statements like that with no evidence. Well try and sully my reputation as much as you like but until you can back it up with evidence I respectfully ask you to keep your accusation to yourself.


Sub, I've read most of your posts and I have noticed that you virtually "attacked" anything having to do with American: government, military, business, ways of life, foreign affairs, people, etc, etc in the present conditions. I'm not going to post your comments here as evidence, as yours are already self-evident in the ATS forums.

You have never take Russia, China, EU, Iran, North Korea, etc. to tasks the same way as you have taken the USA to the extremity here. As if you're totally ignoring the rest and narrowing your focus on the US. It just show your bias and reinforce your anti-American rhetoric (yes, most of your posts are persuasively stated and clearly communicated to the rest of us in a "skillful" manner).


Your Problem is you are just slamming anything to do with American and totally ignore what Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, EU, Venezuela are doing to the US on geo-strategical, political, military and economic levels.


Originally posted by subz
The NPT is also a relic of the Cold War eh? Or what about the Geneva Convention? People want to see both those scrapped. Why not? If we can scrap one treaty why should another treaty be valid? The ABM treaty was scrapped for the very same reasons some advocate the scrapping of the OST. Why is it that people can claim that their governments are more trustworthy than any one elses. Absolute power corrupts and power corrupts absolutely. That applies to dicatatorships AND democracies.


The Geneva Convention have nothing to do with the Cold War. The NPT, on the other hand, is due to concerns that other countries would seek nuclear materials and technology from the Soviet Union, the US, Britain, France, and China for competitive political reasons or under-the-table deals, something many countries feared so in the Cold War era.

Absolute survival takes precedence over absolute powers. It works for ANY democracy or dictatorship.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 09:50 AM
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Update:
Really don't want to make a new thread when these stories are so similar, but here a recent development on the potential Russa/USA space conflict.



Space weapons report prompts evasive moves
Bush spokesman says new policy is likely to focus on protecting U.S. systems in orbit

The White House distanced itself Wednesday from a report that it was considering developing new weapons in space, but left open the possibility of future programs to protect U.S. satellites.

The somewhat contradictory stance came as the Bush administration works to finish a draft of a new national space policy. Spokesman Scott McClellan said the policy would take into account "the threats and challenges" to maintaining U.S. space capabilities.

"The policy that we're talking about is not looking at weaponizing space," McClellan said. "I expect it's likely to continue to emphasize the sovereignty of space systems and the right of free passage of those space systems."
www.chron.com...



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