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Can God really be all-powerful?

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posted on May, 20 2005 @ 09:05 AM
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Before anyone starts flaming me, I'm a Christian - my faith in God is unshakeable, I just have an overly inquisitive mind.

In the bible it says God always keeps his promises. If God didn't keep his promises he wouldn't be God. Is God therefore bound by his obligation to fulfill promises? If so, how can we reconcile the idea of an all-powerful God with a God that has this limit? An all-powerful God by definition should have no limits.




posted on May, 20 2005 @ 09:12 AM
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Yet another paradox!

Keep up the inquisitiveness!



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 04:52 AM
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Can God really be all-powerful?


Sure! Why not? God can be anything you want him/her/it to be - as long as you don't let someone tell you what to believe.

Hell, to me, "God" means a 500-foot long, female Dragon whose blood is water, which feeds all of the waters of Earth; who leads the spirits of the dead to the underworld to circle the wheel of life...uh...again.

You see? Easy, squeezy, breezy!



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 07:10 AM
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i wont take credit for this point, seapeople deserves it (not sure if he's still on these forums)

god cant change 1+1=2, no matter what, one unit plus one unit will always equal two units. if god was all poweful he would be able to change this (ALL powerful, ABSOLUTE powerful).



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 07:19 AM
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Yes


Do not confuse integrity, and goodness, with limits. The reason God made the promise of salvation is Love. God is also Truth.
SO... God would not be God if he DIDNT keep His Word.

Who do we know that does not keep his word? Satan.



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by cheeser
i wont take credit for this point, seapeople deserves it (not sure if he's still on these forums)

god cant change 1+1=2, no matter what, one unit plus one unit will always equal two units. if god was all poweful he would be able to change this (ALL powerful, ABSOLUTE powerful).

A very good point cheeser. We're bound by certain laws of physics in this universe. God HAS to abide by them regardless of whether he/she/it created these laws or not.
There IS a place where God can exist and is free to do anything he/she/it wants. At the singularity.
I'd never imagine I'd say this ....GOD IS A BLACK HOLE!



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
An all-powerful God by definition should have no limits.


That would depend on your definition of all-powerful.


On the absolutes of Mathematics:

Moving the parenthesis in an addition problem should not change the answer. 1 + (1 + 1) = 3 and (1+1) + 1 = 3. But when one considers an infinite series of numbers, the "absolute" rules of mathematics are not so absolute.

Find the sum of the infinite series.
1, -1, 1, -1, 1, -1 ...

Now suppose position parenthesis like this:
(1 + -1)+ (1 + -1)+ (1 + -1) ... or 0 + 0 + 0 ...
Obviously the sum will be 0.

But now supposed we change the position of the parenthesis like so:
1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) ... or 1 + 0 + 0 ...
Obviously the sum will be 1.

So which is it?



[edit on 22-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO

On the absolutes of Mathematics:

Moving the parenthesis in an addition problem should not change the answer. 1 + (1 + 1) = 3 and (1+1) + 1 = 3. But when one considers an infinite series of numbers, the "absolute" rules of mathematics are not so absolute.

Find the sum of the infinite series.
1, -1, 1, -1, 1, -1 ...

Now suppose position parenthesis like this:
(1 + -1)+ (1 + -1)+ (1 + -1) ... or 0 + 0 + 0 ...
Obviously the sum will be 0.

But now supposed we change the position of the parenthesis like so:
1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) ... or 1 + 0 + 0 ...
Obviously the sum will be 1.

So which is it?



[edit on 22-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Wow such beautiful logic in action.
Let me get this straight Raphael_UO: The divergence of a series= proof that god is allpowerful? How'd that happen?



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 05:06 PM
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1 + 1 equals two....well, lets get down to the details. What aspect of that item are we talking about. The number one by your definition could be quantity 3. My definition of 1 could be 2.

God created the universe from what wasnt. It is written in scripture. So technically, God said nothing plus his idea makes something.

The logic and arrogance of mans thought, and his desire to want to make sure God keeps his promises is one thing. Hence the tree of knowlege. All we had to do was live and enjoy. Knowledge makes us want. Want makes us envy. Envy creates jealousy, and so one ending up with hate and anger.

To answer the original question Simon, I believe in one God. That God in his creation created because he is. He had no divine plan to destroy, for all that he has created in a life form, gets better, and repairs itself through life.
Nature, is indeed beauty as are man and woman.
When wondering about Gods promise, consider his original intent. Adam and Eve, in a wonderful garden with no cares. Enjoying the sun, but nekked.

Now, take yourself into the reward of Heaven. You are given heavenly powers. Would some be cruel? I sure hope not. I think the universe and God have a force of Good for all no matter what. Its the law of nature.

Peace.



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 05:06 PM
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1 + 1 equals two....well, lets get down to the details. What aspect of that item are we talking about. The number one by your definition could be quantity 3. My definition of 1 could be 2.

God created the universe from what wasnt. It is written in scripture. So technically, God said nothing plus his idea makes something.

The logic and arrogance of mans thought, and his desire to want to make sure God keeps his promises is one thing. Hence the tree of knowlege. All we had to do was live and enjoy. Knowledge makes us want. Want makes us envy. Envy creates jealousy, and so one ending up with hate and anger.

To answer the original question Simon, I believe in one God. That God in his creation created because he is. He had no divine plan to destroy, for all that he has created in a life form, gets better, and repairs itself through life.
Nature, is indeed beauty as are man and woman.
When wondering about Gods promise, consider his original intent. Adam and Eve, in a wonderful garden with no cares. Enjoying the sun, but nekked.

Now, take yourself into the reward of Heaven. You are given heavenly powers. Would some be cruel? I sure hope not. I think the universe and God have a force of Good for all no matter what. Its the law of nature.

Peace.



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Wow such beautiful logic in action.
Let me get this straight Raphael_UO: The divergence of a series= proof that god is allpowerful? How'd that happen?


I was just saying that the absolute laws of Mathematics were not so absolute. My statement made no other conclusions.

To assume that a mathematical "absolute" disproves God's power is just a fallicious as saying that the divergence of a series is proof of God's power.

And to counter an earlier statement you made, the laws of physics also breakdown when they are applied to an infinite.



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 09:54 PM
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I just watched something on this today. And so far the only thing I'm remembering is God cannot lie, He keeps His covenants, Once your sins are forgiven by the blood of Christ, God says He will not remember them anymore.

[edit on 22-5-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Yes


Do not confuse integrity, and goodness, with limits. The reason God made the promise of salvation is Love. God is also Truth.
SO... God would not be God if he DIDNT keep His Word.

Who do we know that does not keep his word? Satan.



True indeed.


The Divine's Ultimate-abode-of-Being if you will; the Ain Soph, is only ruled by One Law: Truth/Love.






gnostickabbalah.com...


As you can see, each realm of Sephiroth of the Tree of Life is ruled by different Laws.

However, only One of these Laws is Absolute and Eternal.

It can't defy itself because it just IS.

That which IS That.

And it's only reason for Being, is just That.




Eheieh Asher Eheieh: “I Am The One That I Am.”


Why would the very Being that has always been here, defy the very Essence of itself?

As jake1997 said, if He/She did break His/Her own Law(for those who assign a gender to The Divine), He/She would not Be That which He/She IS.


Speaking of the Ain Soph, let's see why Christians end their prayers with AMEN(So shall it BE).

It is because AMEN is the name that the Ancient Kemetians used for what the Hebrew's called AIN SOPH, The Absolute(Remember that Abraham, Joseph and Moses all received Spiritual instruction during their stay in the sunny land of KHEM):



www.aasorlando.org...

AMEN

METU NETER Vol. 1, Pg. 212

Amen means “concealed”. It is the Kamitic counterpart of the term “Subjective” as we have used it in this book [Metu Neter Vol. 1]. It corresponds to the essential nature of the Supreme Being, which is the same as the essence of Man’s being. It is our unmanifested, unmanifestable, unconditioned Self – That which is the ultimate source of life and consciousness. It is the unseen and unseeable that looks out into the Objective Realm of spirits, thoughts, feelings, and physical phenomena. We must return our focus of consciousness back to it by the cessation of all thought activity. Once we have established this innermost point as our place of being – i.e., living beyond emotional influences – we will attain to the state of Hetep. This is a state in which we are able to fully ignore all emotions that may rise into our awareness, and thus attain to a peace that cannot be disturbed by any challenge in life. In the Hindu tradition it is called Parabrahm Sarvikalpa Nirvana. This state of inner peace is the prime foundation for the functioning of the healing functions of the life-force (Ra), and is the source of all spiritual power.


© Ra Un Nefer Amen




Lovely.



HOTEP



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
I was just saying that the absolute laws of Mathematics were not so absolute. My statement made no other conclusions.

Agreed. There are still some undefines we deal with in mathematics.


To assume that a mathematical "absolute" disproves God's power is just a fallicious as saying that the divergence of a series is proof of God's power.

I never said that "absolute" disproves God's power. I merely tried to shed light into where God might have "absolute" power. Only at a singularity can God be all powerful to be able to change the laws that we have defined.



And to counter an earlier statement you made, the laws of physics also breakdown when they are applied to an infinite.

Yes thats the problem I'm refering to when we encounter singularities.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by HIFIGUY
1 + 1 equals two....well, lets get down to the details. What aspect of that item are we talking about. The number one by your definition could be quantity 3. My definition of 1 could be 2.

I'll quote cheeser:


god cant change 1+1=2, no matter what, one unit plus one unit will always equal two units

He didnt say "number" but said "unit". No matter what value you assign the number 1 it'll always add up to 2( unless you're inconsistent)



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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Logic doesn't define God, God defines logic. If God wished, he could have made 1+1=3, and it would have been perfectly logical to you. However, God didn't do that, so the concept is not possible in our heads.
About God being bound by promises....weell, God would have known the outcome of what happened long before the promise, so if God didn't wish to keep the promises, they wouldn't have been made.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by I_s_i_s
We're bound by certain laws of physics in this universe.
God HAS to abide by them regardless of whether
he/she/it created these laws or not.


Why? A computer programmer creates a program. It is lesser than
him. It is in the computer. He sees the beginning and the end.
But he isn't bound to that program. He is outside it. He is above it.
He can interject anything into that program at any time to change
it if he wishes. He could work around it. He could do something
to the computer, and thus to the program without even re-programming.

God is the programmer. We are in the program.

No... I'm not a matrix fan and we aren't really in a program.
I'm just using that as an example. God isn't bound by our
natural laws any more than a computer programmer is
bound to any one program.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 08:54 AM
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Where could he operate it from?



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by riley
Where could he operate it from?




The Ray of Creation

The Absolute – Three Aspects

1. Ain (Hebrew: Nothing) - the unmanifested Absolute, the womb of the ocean of Divine Mother Space. This is where only the wind and the darkness exists.

2. Ain Soph (Hb: Limitless) - This is our atomic star that sends it’s Ray into the world in order to be cognizant of its own happiness. This is the Star of Bethlehem, that which guides the path of the Bodhisattva. This is the original point of departure, where everything comes from in the beginning of the Mahamanvantara and where everything returns during the Mahapralaya (Sanskrit for Cosmic Night).

3. Ain Soph Aur (Hb: Limitless Light) –The Ray of Creation. This is the Cosmic Christ, Quetzlcoatl (Nahuatl), Okidanok (Gurdjieff), Vishnu (Sans), Kukulcan (Mayan), etc. This is the source of all life and light in the universe. It is the ray that sacrifices itself in order to give birth to the multiple realms and forms upon the eternal Tree of Life. It Sacrifices itself in order to undergo multiple transformations, becoming more and more dense, more complicated so as to give life opportunity upon various planes of existence.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by riley
Where could he operate it from?

you beat me to it riley!

Let me make sure I understand teh terms defined in your analogy.

Computer program= The whole universe
Computer program code= The laws of physics and math

Now since God is operating "outside" of this program(this huge huge universe that is EVERYTHING..) and is "bigger" than this program...where's he at?

Also, if you ever done programming you'll know that its very hard to change something that "redefines" the rules. You have to pretty much go thru every peice of code to make sure everything is consistent. So if god decided to change 1+1=3 I think we'd KNOW.



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