What We Iraqis Want

I said they where not random either, nice selective hearing you have.

There is a huge difference between systematic and random/not rendom.

I ackowledge that you said sexual abuse by US troops on the local population in more than random, I dont agree but I acknowledge that you said it.

Anyways..you did say it was not systematic

[edit on 26/5/2005 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Since you and sporty ask so nice.

But i don't post this lightly, not a day goes by that my heart isn't wripped to pieces over this.

lists.iww.org...

Snipes the poop a ganda

Hector Carreon and Ernesto Cienfuegos keep browsing through the bowels of cyberspace in search of pornography and bogus photos to base their wild stories on and instill hatred towards the Jewish people, Israel and the United States. For example, one of propaganda pieces posted on their site “Photos Show Rape of Iraqi Women by US Occupation Forces” . In this article written by Ernesto Cienfuegos, he said “photographs were sent to La Voz de Aztlan from confidential sources depicting the shocking rapes of two Iraqi women by what are purported to be US Military Intelligence personnel and private US mercenaries in military fatigues”. In reality, the photos were copied from a smut site Fleshbot (Beware, extremely graphic).

Link omiited intentionally I do not link to graphic images


Cienfuegos and his cronies are stupid Nazis and promoters of terrorism. Hardly what I would call a creditable source to back up your claim, since his information has already been debunked as false information.


[edit on 5/26/2005 by shots]

Originally posted by SportyMB
Don't hate on the troops and attack them with false allegations.

Open your eyes. The truth will set you free.

When you sign your name on that dotted line and you raise your right hand and take that oath, it can be a faustian bargain.

In the military, I assure of one thing: Shyte rolls down hill. That is what systemic means.

In today's Army, you better be wearing some extra thick hip boots.

I salute those men and women in uniform today who courageously deny this abhorrent behavior and stick hard and fast to the values they know to be honorable and by the laws enshrined in UCMJ, the US Constitution and the Geneva Conventions.

Those who take part in this madness, and they know who they are, get what they deserve - being thrown down the toilet by an administration that doesn't give a rat's a$$ about them.

Originally posted by SportyMB
I am NOT talking about Abu Ghraib, nor have I mentioned that with the exception of this post.

Again...Local Population+systematically sexual abuse by US troops=false.

I did not mention Abu Ghraib ....two different arguements

It is not different. If you study the reports, you will find that over 80% of the Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib were, in fact, found to be innocent of any wrongdoing. So, you see, the locals have been largely and unjustly brutalized.

Let's put it in perspective, how would you feel if law enforcement officials in your community wontonly broke down your door - in pursuit of some criminals - and drug you and your family members off to jail and tortured you & yours for information you did not have? That is exactly what has been happening. It's written in blood. You can deny or you can face it.

The sooner we Americans own up to this horrific behavior, the sooner we can throw out those who implemented it. And then, finally, we can change course. If we don't, we - or our troops - will pay a horrific price down the road.

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Ofcource in the sham trials we are seeying now, one or two scape goats will be punished while the big fish swim away, and while the crimes continue.

It shows you how little respect this leadership has for those doin the gruntwork. The troops ain't nuthin but a number to the big dawgs. 'Course that's nothing new.

Originally posted by SportyMB
You have not produced any reports that prove that US troops are sysmatically sexually abusing/raping the local population

Open your eyes. There have been over 10 reports!! If you do not believe what I am telling you - go read that book I referenced. It's all there - in black and white - straight from the horse's mouths in the memos. The collection PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt what I am saying is tr

ECK, No disrespect taken, from one warrior to another I assume you have been in a war

I served in the Persian Gulf War with the 101st Airborne Division. I traveled extensively, too, throughout Saudi Arabia and Iraq.



[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

It is not different. If you study the reports, you will find that over 80% of the Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib were, in fact, found to be innocent of any wrongdoing. So, you see, the locals have been largely and unjustly brutalized.

Yes it is different. I specifically mentioned that I was talking about the prisons...only the local population. And even if you were to add the G-moe and the other Det centers in the equation....it would still be far from using "systematic" as a term to describe it.

If that is the case then you cannot say that most of them have been tortured...because most of the population (not in det centers or locked up) have not been tortured by US troops. Prisoners/detainees are not included in the local population when someone speaks of sexual abuse/rape. They are thier seperate category as people at det centers or whatever.

Sporty, you are seeing only what you want to see. And trust me, I can understand your reluctance. It's only natural. However, what I have stated is on the record. If you truly wish to know the truth, go check out that massive book I told you about. Its not even written by anyone, per se, it's analysis and pure legal documentation. Getting those memos outta this white house was like pulling fangs out of the mouth of a tiger. The main gist of it, at the end, is that it proves in abundance the abuse IS systemic and came straight from the top. This is why you are probably never going to see an independent investigation. That would lead to charges of war crimes at the highest levels.

The syrian sister loves the Iraqi's so much. Lets examine Syria's love:

"Syria's senior mufti called for suicide attacks on American soldiers in Iraq.[5] Indeed, thousands of Arab irregular forces - some volunteers, some members of terrorist groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and Fatah splinter groups - crossed the Syrian border into Iraq to battle coalition forces. Coalition commanders commonly referred to these irregulars as "Syrians" because most of them were Syrian, and most of those who weren't carried Syrian travel documents, in some cases specifically marked "reason for entry: Jihad. Length of stay: Indefinite."[6] In one case, US military forces captured a large group of Syrians and confiscated seventy suicide jackets - each filled with twenty-two pounds of military grade C4 explosives, and mercury detonators.[7] In another case, soldiers found "several hundred thousands dollars" on a bus that came from Syria, together with "leaflets suggesting that Iraqis would be rewarded if they killed Americans."[8] Confronting Syrian Support for Terrorist Groups www.meib.org...

Of course we know the Syrians have always been very proficient with assassinations, guerrila warfare, and especially espionage to maintain their political control in the region. Syrians are very good at using and abusing their neighbors to insure the protection of their borders by utilizing inserted agents, who train young boys to blow themselves up. They have been doing this for years within Palestine, supplying bomb recipes, and training with weapons, and detonators, while recruting the foolish to do their dirty work. The Syrians have always been excellent recruiters and propaganda vehicles, just as SF units work with locals to hamper enemy efforst. However, Syrians use muslims as bomb devices to thwart political policy. They use terror as an effective weapon. They claim to be fighting for the muslim cause and jihad, but in fact they use young children to blow up more young children for their own greedy, lusful policies of revenge against Israel and anyone who supports Israel. It's always been a historical conflict.


Palestinian Terrorists in Syria

The most significant Palestinian terrorist groups enjoying the safe harbor and sponsorship of the Syrian government are Hamas, PIJ, and PFLP-GC. These groups maintain offices in both Damascus and the adjacent Yarmouk refugee camp, including at least two Hamas offices, one PIJ office, and five PFLP-GC offices. Smaller Palestinian groups run at least eleven other offices in the Syrian capital.

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, Syrian officials continue to describe the Damascus headquarters of these terrorist groups as "media offices." In fact, their activities, include inciting, recruiting, training, coordinating, funding, and directing terrorists operating in Israel and the Palestinian-controlled territories. They are in fact training recruits, and sending them off to Iraq to blow themselves and Iraqi civilians to Allah.

The al-Qaeda cell uncovered in Madrid was run almost entirely by Syrians who started their careers as radical Islamic extremists as members of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood, who of course receive their funding directly from Syrian Foreign Minister Farouq al-Sharafor. "Syria's interest is to see the invaders defeated in Iraq."[3] He added, "The resistance of the Iraqis is extremely important. It is a heroic resistance to the US-British occupation of their country."

Farouq just leaves out the part, that his government will do anything and use anyone to keep U.S. eyes off of Syria, including blowing up Iraqi's and funding such. Better Iraqi's then Syrians is their motto.


Enough with the ss rhetoric and invalid arguments. Look at the history of Syria and what they support as a whole - blowing up kids and families for political motives - using jihad as a weapon. Thats what sister syria supports, everything else is a smokescreen.

The abuse of the local populace during wartime is a fact of history in every war ever fought throughout time. Having said that, is it right? No. Will it happen? Yes. Because for every 100 honorable soldiers there will be at least one nothing of an individual that will try to make the rest look bad.

To even suggest that the upper echelon promotes and encourages these actions is absurd. As a soldier and a leader I find that insinuation insulting.I fulfill my duties with honor and integrity and insist on the same from those beneath me.

SS there are still several of my questions that remain unanswered.

What 2 dictatorships did you live under?


Do they really hope for a better future under a democracy? Did they lose loved ones to saddam or the insurgency? Are they just trying to work towards a peaceful Iraq?

Also, I have yet to see proof that these "freedom fighters" are Iraqi. ALL reports show that these individuals are from other/neighboring countries.
And please, do not come to me with claims of having spoke to them and they told you this. I could claim to be from LA but that doesn't make it true.

Originally posted by one_shot
The abuse of the local populace during wartime is a fact of history in every war ever fought throughout time. Having said that, is it right? No. Will it happen? Yes. Because for every 100 honorable soldiers there will be at least one nothing of an individual that will try to make the rest look bad.

1. As you said, this does not justify acts of lawlessness, sanctioned or otherwise.

2. During the Gulf War we had a MULTITUDE of Iraqis surrender. We took them and detained them back down in Saudi. I don't recall ONE SINGLE episode of abuse being reported. Of course, back then, our leadership was top notch and we under strict orders to AT ALL TIMES adhere to the Geneva
Conventions.

We were close enuff yet to Vietnam for it to be all too fresh in our leaders minds. They weren't about to let us go back to the bad ol' days of Vietnam.

To even suggest that the upper echelon promotes and encourages these actions is absurd.

Don't believe it? Check this exhaustive compilation of analysis, torture memos and reports:

The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib
by Karen J. Greenberg (Editor), Joshua L. Dratel (Editor), Anthony Lewis
www.amazon.com...

Syrian Sister why do you never clearly answer the questions you are asked and why do you assume that you know the motives of others. You are not God.

You assume that I think occupation is OK and I support it. I don’t. What I do know is however that there are good and bad on both sides and there are always two sides to the story.

Would I fight for my country should a foreign nation try to occupy ‘my home’ – most certainly I would. Would I strap bombs to my body and blow up innocents – NO I wouldn’t.

Do I believe it is OK for occupying force soldiers to rape innocent women and children NO I DO NOT! But as has been said here before, this I believe to be in the minority. This is not to excuse the behaviour and the full force of the law should be brought done on the perpetrators. Remember also this type of behaviour was a regular occurrence under the old regime. So for those who were subjected to systematic torture and brutalisation (all too often innocent women and children) I would suspect the may just be very relieved that others have come to their rescue. How do I know this – like you (assuming you are telling the truth) I know of people who suffered at the hands repressive regimes like Saddam and others.

As stated Sister – all I am saying is that there are always two sides to the story.

The systematic abuse and torture of terrorism suspects and political opponents have so often be condoned, encouraged, and explained by administration officials that it is ridiculous to assume that it is not part of official US policy.

A question : americans have now been entertained for half a year by the so-called oil-for-food "scandal". How about the several times more important iraqi theft scandal in which 8.8 billion dollars disappeared shortly after the invasion ?

Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
What I do know is however that there are good and bad on both sides and there are always two sides to the story.

Minor interjection.

If I had [insert one unit of currency of choice] for the number of times I have observed the self-limiting "both points of view" perspective at ATS, I would have a few more [insert plural form of currency of choice] than when I started.

To lock into a "both points of view" outsider's perspective works if you are negotiating in a stupidly deadlocked adversarial battle.

But in the world at large and in the discovery and exposure of conspiracy there are always many more than two points of view to be reconciled.

Back to regular programming please.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
What I do know is however that there are good and bad on both sides and there are always two sides to the story.

Minor interjection.

If I had [insert one unit of currency of choice] for the number of times I have observed the self-limiting "both points of view" perspective at ATS, I would have a few more [insert plural form of currency of choice] than when I started.

To lock into a "both points of view" outsider's perspective works if you are negotiating in a stupidly deadlocked adversarial battle.

But in the world at large and in the discovery and exposure of conspiracy there are always many more than two points of view to be reconciled.

Back to regular programming please.

True, but it all boils down to positive / negative and balance. Keep it simple.

But in the world at large and in the discovery and exposure of conspiracy there are always many more than two points of view to be reconciled.

Thankyou for saying what needed to be sead so elequently. I completely agree .

lady of the lake

"There is two sides of ever story, then there is what really happened"
www.whatreallyhappened.com. What really happened, doesn't always necceserally lie in the middle. Sometimes it's off the scale completely.

Would I fight for my country should a foreign nation try to occupy ‘my home’ – most certainly I would. Would I strap bombs to my body and blow up innocents – NO I wouldn’t.

Who would? You belive the resistance would? You belive that they would ever hurt the very people they are risking their lives to protect? HAH. Never.

shots

It is said by some, that the images where sent to those sites, not created by them. Some maintain that the images are genuine. I do not know, however the testimony, is still there.

Vincere7

You want to talk about an AL Qaeda cell that was uncovered, what about that fake MOSSAD Al Qaeda cell that was uncovered in palestine. Look at those dumb faces below, i bet they never thought they'd be caught.

www.whatreallyhappened.com...

"Mossad agents arrested by the PA for attempting to set up phony 'al Qaeda' cells in the Gaza Strip."

From Haaretz, a jewish news paper.

"Ahmed gave Ibrahim a list of people, mostly Hamas activists, and was told to collect information about them and follow them so they could also be drafted for the Al-Qaida cause.

The two never met, but at a certain point during their telephone contact, Ibrahim became suspicious. He contacted a preventive security officer in Gaza and told him the whole story. The officer looked into the matter and told Ibrahim that Ahmed was an Israeli Shin Bet agent, and Ibrahim should immediately cut off any contacts with him.

Palestinian sources said last week that the case was not unusual, and they reported it, as well as similar cases, during a security meeting with top-level U.S. security officials."

The spies where arrested, the picture provided above.

Al Qaeda is a CIA/MOSSAD front, and it very little to do with the topic at hand.

one-shot

I'm sorry that the truth angers you so much, but you must remember not to be angry at the truth itself, but at the people who commited these crimes.

To even suggest that the upper echelon promotes and encourages these actions is absurd.

It's not as absurd as you may think one-shot.

What 2 dictatorships did you live under?

I've lived in Syria, UAE, and Australia.

Do they really hope for a better future under a democracy?

What democracy, never seen a real one. You think the US is going to give Iraq democracy? that's the biggest joke of history. They support dictatorships and coups against democratically ellected presidents around the world, and you expect them to give anyone democracy? What a laugh. When iraq expells the occupation, then we shall all see, what real democracy/freedom looks like. Untill then, VIVE LE RESISTANCE' !

Did they lose loved ones to saddam or the insurgency?

My family suffered under saddam, as all iraqies did. And as i have said here eariler, around page one i belive. i cannot be accused of being a saddam supporter, since i too was under threat by him long ago in the first gulf war. But the point of the matter is, Iraqies have lost the most loved ones, due to the US. The fact that they put Saddam into power in the first place, the sanctions, the war, and now the occupation. Iraqies have suffered most due to the US. As for what you say about the resistance, the resistance never kills innocent peolpe. My family are the resistance. there has been a campaign of defamation against them by the use of false flag ops and psychological operations.

Are they just trying to work towards a peaceful Iraq?

My iraqi relatives are the resistance, they are trying to work towards a FREE iraq. Live free or die trying.

Also, I have yet to see proof that these "freedom fighters" are Iraqi. ALL reports show that these individuals are from other/neighboring countries.And please, do not come to me with claims of having spoke to them and they told you this.

Out of 10,000 prisoners held in abu gharib, only about 300 of them where found to be foreign fighters. And you can check those numbers yourself. Even the US admits, that the vast majority of the resistance, is iraqi. I don't need to make claims that anyone told me anything one-shot. The facts are already there clear as day. The VAST majority of the resistance is iraqi, sure there is probably being generous maybe 10% non iraqi arabs fighting, but the US has it's allies, Why aren't iraqies allowed to have allies? Arabs are connected by blood and history, ofcource we would allie with each other. The resistance is the resistance of iraq, and no matter what name you come up for them, insurgent, foreign fighter, terrorist, baathist, theocrat etc etc. They are the resistance. If you call a rose by any other name, does it make it any less beautiful?


[edit on 26-5-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

To lock into a "both points of view" outsider's perspective works if you are negotiating in a stupidly deadlocked adversarial battle.

That seems to sum this debate up pretty well

So I guess it fits here

[edit on 26-5-2005 by Amuk]

Ummmm.... OK... who are the adversaries?

Do you really believe in the Bush good guys to the rescue versus terrorist insurgent evildoers scenario?

Really?

Duality, and positive-negative, have not much to do with this.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Do you really believe in the Bush good guys to the rescue versus terrorist insurgent evildoers scenario?

Can you show me ONE of my over 6000 posts where I claim Bush is a good guy?

Do you really Believe the Insurgents that blew up the girls school are the good guys?

My point is that neither side is the "good guys" and both sides amuse me trying to claim the high ground.

What is "GOOD" is to finish this cluster # up as quickly as possible so the Iraqis and our kids can BOTH stop dying

[edit on 26-5-2005 by Amuk]

What is the Saudi position? Why are the Saudi ties with the named 9/11 hijackers not brought to the consciousness of the American public every day? Why are the Bush-bin Laden ties not openly discussed?

What is the Israeli position? What was the precise role of MOSSAD agents in the US in the pre 9/11 period? Who has stood to gain the most out of success or failure in the "War On Terror"?

No, we agree that the Bush adminsitration is not the good guys and whoever it is that "kidnaps" and "beheads" people is not the good guys. Who is doing this nasty beheading stuff, anyway?

BTW... just who are the good guys? Where are they when you need them?



PS. Is there something missing after the word "cluster"? This is a long topic, and the Reply button won't help in seeing that! LOL.




[edit on 26-5-2005 by MaskedAvatar]