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Is The Gun Ban In The UK Working???

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posted on May, 31 2005 @ 07:16 PM
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Rather than just looking at statistics on types of guns we should look at the bigger picture.
How does the violent crime rate, overall, look for the same period?
Not too hot if you ask me...
The basic fact is that with laws preventing the law abiding folks from protecting themselves you are giving the criminals a well stocked pond to fish in.
I really don't want to argue about this. I just find it odd that you (British and Australians) would so willingly give up such a basic right to prevent some accidents. I won't give up my mobility because cars cause thousands upon thousands of deaths a year. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
Guns are here. You may like to tell yourself that you are safe from them because they are "illegal". How many of those arrested with guns were completely law abiding citizens? How many of those guns came from China, Russia, U.S., Belgium, and Italy? My point is that you WON'T get rid of guns or gun crime by outlawing them. All you end up doing is becoming a nation of sheep waiting for the slaughter by the wolves or the owners, pick one.




posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 06:48 AM
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Originally posted by Fry2
Rather than just looking at statistics on types of guns we should look at the bigger picture.
How does the violent crime rate, overall, look for the same period?
Not too hot if you ask me...
The basic fact is that with laws preventing the law abiding folks from protecting themselves you are giving the criminals a well stocked pond to fish in.


Here's a British Crime Survey (BCS) graph on violent crime that shows violent crime has fallen.


www.crimestatistics.org.uk...



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by Fry2
Rather than just looking at statistics on types of guns we should look at the bigger picture.
How does the violent crime rate, overall, look for the same period?
Not too hot if you ask me...
The basic fact is that with laws preventing the law abiding folks from protecting themselves you are giving the criminals a well stocked pond to fish in.
I really don't want to argue about this. I just find it odd that you (British and Australians) would so willingly give up such a basic right to prevent some accidents. I won't give up my mobility because cars cause thousands upon thousands of deaths a year. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
Guns are here. You may like to tell yourself that you are safe from them because they are "illegal". How many of those arrested with guns were completely law abiding citizens? How many of those guns came from China, Russia, U.S., Belgium, and Italy? My point is that you WON'T get rid of guns or gun crime by outlawing them. All you end up doing is becoming a nation of sheep waiting for the slaughter by the wolves or the owners, pick one.


Gun's have started to be a bit of a problem here in the UK. In areas such as Birmingham, Nottingham and London there has been an increase in gun related crimes, usually carried out by gangs against other gangs. So we have this problem, what would the solution be? Oh, legalise guns so everyone can have one? I don't think so. The solution would be a major crackdown on firearms and attempt to destroy all of them in Britain. Yeah it's a long shot but do you not think that just legalising firearms is the lazy option? Surely that creates more of a problem rather than solves it.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by phixion]



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by Fry2
Rather than just looking at statistics on types of guns we should look at the bigger picture.
How does the violent crime rate, overall, look for the same period?
Not too hot if you ask me...


- Once again Ace of Bass explodes the myth, see above.



The basic fact is that with laws preventing the law abiding folks from protecting themselves you are giving the criminals a well stocked pond to fish in.


- Er, except that our UK crime figures show we do not have a high level of gun crime or violent crime.


I really don't want to argue about this. I just find it odd that you (British and Australians) would so willingly give up such a basic right to prevent some accidents. I won't give up my mobility because cars cause thousands upon thousands of deaths a year. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
Guns are here.


- Except they are not here.......not in any really significant numbers.

Why would we voluntarily let the genie out of the bottle, here - particularly when we can see the effects where it has happened?

It may be too late for gun saturated America but we have so few.
Why on earth do you think we would feel safer with a massive explosion to the number of guns in our society?


You may like to tell yourself that you are safe from them because they are "illegal". How many of those arrested with guns were completely law abiding citizens?


- .....and what? How many were armed? Relatively few.
We'd like it to stay that way thanks.......and it does.

Your implication that the UK is a high-crime society because people are unarmed and unable to protect their property is ridiculous.

We are not a high crime society by any means.

Crime may go up or go down over time but nevertheless we enjoy a low overall crime rate (with a lot of what little we have concentrated in some - parts of - our cities, just like many places).

Go investigate continental Europe, many of those countries have even less crime and no guns too.


How many of those guns came from China, Russia, U.S., Belgium, and Italy?


- Not that many cos there aren't that many in circulation being used.


My point is that you WON'T get rid of guns or gun crime by outlawing them.


- No that on it's own won't do it.
What does do it are bans, heavy sentences for those caught using guns and generally having a gun free culture with so few of them in circulation in our society.

Obviously it works too.


All you end up doing is becoming a nation of sheep waiting for the slaughter by the wolves or the owners, pick one.


- Why? It's a ridiculous 'forced option' and has no actual relation to what is happening here.

We are not 'prey' for the gun toting criminals. We have so little gun crime, we have so little guns and we are not a society ridden with enormous amounts of crime.

......and we also have absolutely no intention of forcing upon ourselves and our families the accompanying misery widespread private gun ownership can bring (does bring if the USA is your 'model').

No thanks for the accidents, the domestic violence, injuries and murders or general high levels of paranoia so apparant in so many Americans.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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knowing someone that was mugged at gun point
i would say its not working
since criminals are the ones that are armed to their teath
as they just pass around their guns mostly so its hard to trace



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 11:23 AM
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I think to discuss if Gun Laws are working you have to look at a number of factors;

Why were guns removed.
Gun crime existing in Britain.
Crime existing over all.

Then look at outside Nations with gun laws; firstly in Europe and then all of the World.

Guns in Britain were removed because of the number of violent crimes that were happening with guns, ending with the school massacre in 97(1996?). Once this had happened the general public began to cry out for guns to be banned and the Labour Government under Tony Blair did such a thing.

Although the trend of violent crime in Britain has dropped - involving guns, this can be linked to two things, firstly violent crime has dropped over all and the fact the IRA have stopped doing the campaigns that they used to do. But between 1999 and 2000 there was a 10% increase in violent crime (www.jointogether.org...)

As outlined over previous posts, crime over all is down within Britain which is normal when a nation leaves a "depression". However, sales of illegal firearms have been rumoured to be going up in the last gun amnesty one man in Wolverhampton actually gave in an RPG Launcher as well as a bag full of RPG's also several people have been taken to court in high profile cases for having "stores" of firearms. Which only helps to display that once guns are banned criminals are the only people to have guns.

If you look at the Local Picture (Europe) two nations; Switzerland and Spain have ver loose gun control laws. In Switzerland for example it is illegal for men over 18 to not own a gun. Yet Switzerland a Nation of roughly 6million people had 189 cases of homicide (87 resulting in deaths) out of all of these only 91 involved a gun in anway and nearly half of these crimes were done by non-resident foreigners By comparison, Britain -- which has strict gun control laws -- had a homicide rate in 1994 of 1.4 per 100,000 and a robbery rate of 116 per 100,000.

Then if you look at somewhere like South Africa, they have some of the strictist Gun Control laws in the world and yet the highest crime rate. People who can't defend themselves can only become victims and Britain will be going along this same road if we're not careful. Something funny I remember reading; was that in London we have had more people attempt to rob someone with a knife then the combined total of armed robberies in New York and Los Angeles.

www.ncpa.org...
www.wjin.net...='gun%20crime%20great%20britain'

Edit:

But this could just be the difference between these Nations, Switzerland, Sweden, etc, have nobody living below the Poverty line, they have a Government where the public can get involved and low rates on unemployment. Crime only happens when people are poor, forced to act or see no alternative. Maybe it is not the fact of if you have guns or not but more so the society in which the guns are in?

[edit on 7-6-2005 by Odium]



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 05:29 AM
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I can only really conclude that those who imagine the UK to have a really serious gun-crime problem are speaking with no real sense of comparison or proportion.

It's not a perfect situation here, that much is true - in a human world what could be, hmmm?

But to totally lose sight of the comparitively low level of gun crime we do have here and then go on to insist that this situation (as well as ignoring the additional accompanying issues like accidental maiming, domestic violence that gets totally out of hand etc etc) would be remedied by flooding the UK with privately owned guns is, IMO, to leave reality all together.

We should be proud of the society we have in the UK. That's not to say it can't be better but it is to recognise that it's damned sight better than most of the world's people get to experience (even compared with the developed world).......facts we ignore at our peril IMO.


There were 853 murders, manslaughters and infanticides in England and Wales in the 2003/2004 period. That's out of a population of 52 million. hosb1004chap123.pdf


( - Thanks for the info Ace of Bass.)


[edit on 8-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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Really? That low? Odd the Home Office give out different statistics:

"There were 1,045 deaths initially recorded as homicides in England and Wales based on cases recorded by the police in 2002/03."

8% of these involved a firearm. Both of these up from the 2001/2002 period.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...='home%20office%20homicides'

"Amnesty in April 2003 resulted in 44,000 guns and more than a million rounds of ammunition being handed in."

"Firearms other than air weapons were reported to have been used in 10,248 recorded crimes in 2002/03. This was a two per cent increase over the previous year, following a much larger increase of 34 per cent in the previous year."

Sure there's not a problem? This has actually been going up and up since the 1997 ban. Not sure where you live but move to one of the worst parts of London, Birmingham, Wolverhampton or Nottingham and tell me there's not a growing gun culture in this nation.

Edit:

Look at page 4, this clearly shows that crime is on the increase and not decrease. With nearly twice as many violent homicides then in 1997.

[edit on 8-6-2005 by Odium]



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
Really? That low? Odd the Home Office give out different statistics:

"There were 1,045 deaths initially recorded as homicides in England and Wales based on cases recorded by the police in 2002/03."


It's actually not odd at all.
The figure you gave of 1,045 is from 2002/2003
The figure I gave of 853 is from 2003/2004

Here's one of the reasons the 2002/2003 figures were so high:
"The homicide figure for 2002/03 includes 173 murders committed by Harold Shipman in previous years but coming to light in the official inquiry in 2002"
hosb1004chap123.pdf


In 2002, they retrospectively recorded Harold Shipman's murders which go back to 1975.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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And as your source shows:
TOTAL VIOLENCE AGAINST THE PERSON
1997:256,070
2004:955,752

So even though "homicides" have gone down from 2003 to 2004 (even though they have increased 6 times in 8 years) it is clear that violence has gone up since guns were outlawed, not the other way around. With attempted murder going up and up; with possession of weapons going up as well. With also rape going up and up; as women have no real way to protect themselves; C.S. spray, guns, etc, they can't own. Robbery? Yep, going up and up...

TOTAL VIOLENT CRIME
1997:347,064
2004:1,109,017



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
So even though "homicides" have gone down from 2003 to 2004 (even though they have increased 6 times in 8 years) it is clear that violence has gone up since guns were outlawed, not the other way around. With attempted murder going up and up; with possession of weapons going up as well. With also rape going up and up; as women have no real way to protect themselves; C.S. spray, guns, etc, they can't own. Robbery? Yep, going up and up...


Please read that report again.
The reason recorded crime went up is largely because of changes in recording practicies. BCS reports show that violent crime actually went down in the same period that recorded violent crime went up.



Changes in recording practices
Recorded crime statistics are affected by changes in reporting and recording practices. There have been two major changes to the recording of crimes since 1997/98. In April 1998, the Counting Rules for Recorded Crime were expanded to include certain additional summary offences. In April 2002, the National Crime Recording Standard was introduced to ensure greater consistency between forces in recording crime and to take a more victim-oriented approach to crime recording (see Simmons et al., 2003).
Both these changes resulted in an increase in the number of crimes recorded. Certain offences, such as minor violent crime, were more affected by these changes than others. It is likely there has been some continuing impact on the number of recorded crimes in 2003/04, as a result of audits to further improve recording. All of these factors need to be considered when looking at
the trends in recorded crime.


As far as rape going up and up because women have no way of protecting themselves, how do you explain the rape figures for the US that are twice as high as the UK? They have loads of guns and CS in the States.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
So even though "homicides" have gone down from 2003 to 2004 (even though they have increased 6 times in 8 years) it is clear that violence has gone up since guns were outlawed, not the other way around. With attempted murder going up and up; with possession of weapons going up as well. With also rape going up and up; as women have no real way to protect themselves; C.S. spray, guns, etc, they can't own. Robbery? Yep, going up and up...


Originally posted by AceOfBase
Please read that report again.
The reason recorded crime went up is largely because of changes in recording practicies. BCS reports show that violent crime actually went down in the same period that recorded violent crime went up.


I'm shocked you fell for that; the other types of crimes still got recorded before 2002 and 1998 they were just placed in different sections. Certain charges they grouped together instead of being split under certains acts. Such as when they split racially motivated less serious assualt and less serious assault. But even if you think that they did not record this there was a clear rise in crime from 1998 onwards and again in 2002 onwards. Which only again shows violent crime is on the incrase.


Originally posted by AceOfBase
As far as rape going up and up because women have no way of protecting themselves, how do you explain the rape figures for the US that are twice as high as the UK? They have loads of guns and CS in the States.


Why mention America? If you look between Sweden, Finland and Norway you are more likely to be a victim of violent crime and/or rape in Sweden then in Finland or Norway which have shockingly relaxed gun laws. This is again shown by nations such as Switzerland which have very high gun ownership and yet low crime rates involving guns and low rape rates.

U.S. Department of Justice also shows that out of those attempted rapes that get stopped these end up being stopped due to the fact the woman has a form of self-defence(55%) and with the increase in Gun Ownership in America this has been slipping. (RAINN Statistics) Being halfed since 1993 with the increase of gun ownership going up in those years.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by Odium

I'm shocked you fell for that; the other types of crimes still got recorded before 2002 and 1998 they were just placed in different sections. Certain charges they grouped together instead of being split under certains acts. Such as when they split racially motivated less serious assualt and less serious assault. But even if you think that they did not record this there was a clear rise in crime from 1998 onwards and again in 2002 onwards. Which only again shows violent crime is on the incrase.


How do you explain the BCS reports showing violent crime going down?
www.crimestatistics.org.uk...



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 02:06 PM
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Because it is the BBC and not the Home Office. The statistics you give, from the home office clearly show it going up. Just like there is a difference between the Home Office statistics and the British Crime Survey.

Oh yeah and also the BBC have published news reports saying it is going up and it is going down. Here's one where they show it going up: news.bbc.co.uk...
news.bbc.co.uk...
news.bbc.co.uk...
You'll notice the media claims both, so they can fill time on their shows. Also news papers, etc, are not the best source of information it is easier to go with official statistics on things like this.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by Odium (RAINN Statistics) Being halfed since 1993 with the increase of gun ownership going up in those years.


Do you have a link that shows gun ownership in the US going up?
The most recent gun survey I can find shows gun ownership declined in the years that crime was also going down.

lilt.ilstu.edu...



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Because it is the BBC and not the Home Office. The statistics you give, from the home office clearly show it going up. Just like there is a difference between the Home Office statistics and the British Crime Survey.


When did I quote the BBC?
I quoted the BCS survey which is run by the Home Office.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by Odium
Because it is the BBC and not the Home Office. The statistics you give, from the home office clearly show it going up. Just like there is a difference between the Home Office statistics and the British Crime Survey.


When did I quote the BBC?
I quoted the BCS survey which is run by the Home Office.


Sorry about that, got the flu at the moment and can hardly see the screen.


As for the BCS it's not done on a National Level but over a small area, usually only numbering in the tens of thousands(hundreds at most) where as the National Crime statistics display every reported crime. Also last I checked, didn't the BCS say they think only 54% of all crimes get reported? If this is the case then crime is a lot higher then we think.

Edit: Damn enter key tricked me again. :|

[edit on 8-6-2005 by Odium]

[edit on 8-6-2005 by Odium]



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by Odium (RAINN Statistics) Being halfed since 1993 with the increase of gun ownership going up in those years.


Do you have a link that shows gun ownership in the US going up?
The most recent gun survey I can find shows gun ownership declined in the years that crime was also going down.

lilt.ilstu.edu...


Sales of firearms are going down; as less people are buying several firearms and in the same periods assault rifles were also being banned which helped slow down the sale of guns. With 192 firearms in circulation in 1994 and the NRI displayed an increase in their last speech since then. Although things such as the War on Terror have played a dramatic role on crime rates in America.

But good example for America is the difference between Washington, DC and Arlington, VA. Arlington is just over the river from D.C. with D.C. having some of the toughest gun control laws in America and a rate of 46.4 per 100,000 homicides and Arlington having 2.1 per 100,000. This is shown all over America, where it is harder to get a hold of guns the rate of violent crime is a lot higher then in areas where you can easily get access to guns.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
But good example for America is the difference between Washington, DC and Arlington, VA. Arlington is just over the river from D.C. with D.C. having some of the toughest gun control laws in America and a rate of 46.4 per 100,000 homicides and Arlington having 2.1 per 100,000. This is shown all over America, where it is harder to get a hold of guns the rate of violent crime is a lot higher then in areas where you can easily get access to guns.


Washington DC is an exception just like Alaska is an exception when it comes to rape (70.3 per 100,000 vs 32.0 national average). link

BTW, do you have per state figure on gun ownership in the US?
The best I could find was a survey from 1996 on regional ownership.


members.cox.net...

It looks like gun ownership is lower in the North East than it is in the South and I think crime is lower in the New England than it is in the South.

If anyone has better regional gun ownership data please post it.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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I find it quite bizarre that some people are still clinging to the belief that introducing more lethal weapons into a society can have any other impact than increasing the possibility that said weapons will be used.

You can pull statistics out of your backside all you like, but the basic premise is rather simple.

More cars on the roads- more road traffic accidents
More planes in the sky- more airplane disasters
More people take up surfing- more people drown in the surf
More people have access to firearms- more people end up dead as a result

Sure Switzerland has a lot of guns and a low homicide rate, big deal. That's an argument for Swiss society, not an argument for more access to firearms. If gun crime in the UK is increasing can anyone with even a modicum of common sense seriously argue that the way to address the issue is to introduce an even greater number of firearms?!

Having personal knowledge of law enforcement in the UK I can assure you that you can forget your Hollywood BS about defending yourself with a concealed weapon if someone tries to assualt or rob you in the street. Anyone doing so with the intent to use the firearm they are pointing at you will shoot you dead before you can draw your concealed weapon. Anyone who doesn't never had it in them to do so in the first place.

So is a firearm useful for defending your property and family during a burglary for example? Well I guess this might be the one area where there may be something in this gun ownership idea. But in my opinion it isn't much. If you disturb an intruder they are FAR more likely to flee the property than confront you. There is a simple logic to that, they don't want to be apprehended or injured, and they generally don't want to be facing a more serious charge.

Gun control in a society that isn't already flooded with guns does work. The rise in firearms offences in the Uk has been significant,but really only when you compare it with a rather low starting point, and a significant proportion of these offences don't actually involve "firearms" at all but often replica weapons, which are often included in the overall statistics, and in my opinion cause a false representation of the real situation.







 
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