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Is The Gun Ban In The UK Working???

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posted on May, 19 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by koji_K

Originally posted by James the Lesser
IF YOU BAN GUNS ONLY CRIMINALS WILL HAVE GUNS!


Yes! That's the whole point!


The idea is, if only criminals have guns, then prosecution is all the more easier, because gun ownership is a crime! The police can identify criminals at once, why? Because they've got the guns! The man who may one day kill someone isn't going to get his chance, because the cops can put him away for owning the gun, they don't have to wait till they use it.

-koji K.

[edit on 19-5-2005 by koji_K]


You're missing the point. Yes, gun laws have decreased the amount of people killed by guns in Britain. However, you're not analyzing the important dimension: the actual murder rate. Instead of using guns, British criminals are just using other tools. The use of other tools to murder has gone up more than the use of guns has gone down. On the contrary, the murder rate in Britain has GONE UP since gun control was introduced : www.timesonline.co.uk... .




BRITAIN'S murder rate has risen to its highest level since records began 100 years ago, undermining claims by ministers that they have got violent crime under control.


That pretty much proves that the law is useless and actually increases the murder rate because people are defenceless against attackers. That, along with decreased freedom from the government (no militias, etc if Big Brother starts taking your rights away).

This kind of gun control does nothing.

Therefor, the gun ban in the UK is NOT working.

[edit on 5/19/05 by RedDragon]




posted on May, 19 2005 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by RedDragon

That pretty much proves that the law is useless and actually increases the murder rate because people are defenceless against attackers. That, along with decreased freedom from the government (no militias, etc if Big Brother starts taking your rights away).

This kind of gun control does nothing.

Therefor, the gun ban in the UK is NOT working.

[edit on 5/19/05 by RedDragon]


You've made an incredible leap of logic. Just because the murder rate has increased, doesn't mean the cause of that increase was new gun legislation. It could be due to any number of factors.

As for being defenceless, consider two things. First, how many murders take the form of shootouts? Not many. The great majority of gun related murders are very one sided, whether it be in the US or UK. If you listen to a police scanner or read the back pages of a local newspaper, you'll notice that most gun crimes are committed by people so emotionally charged, desperate, or just plain messed up that they don't stop to consider if their intended target is armed or not. And for those rare occasions where you premeditate to kill an armed opponent, a criminal, being a criminal, is going to sneak up behind the guy. It's not like criminals are obliged to show a badge and give notice of their intention to duel with pistols. You might say that at least the criminal will be shot by another armed citizen before he has a chance to shoot anyone else, but again, the majority of shooting deaths are single victim affairs anyway, so the net lives saved will not be any greater.

Second, if the government wants to kill you, they can kill you, regardless of how many guns you or your fellow citizens may have. You are living in a fantasy world if you believe otherwise. This is because, while joe public can afford to buy a gun and maybe even a rocket launcher or two, he cannot afford to buy the military-industrial complex. I suppose if you live in a remote area, in some kind of fortified house, you might be able to stave off "Big Brother" for a time, but the majority of citizens live in urban areas, where law enforcement authorities are relied upon to maintain the peace. I can guarantee you that arming every inhabitant of New York City or Detroit would not be a good idea..

-koji K.



[edit on 19-5-2005 by koji_K]

[edit on 19-5-2005 by koji_K]



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by RedDragon
You're missing the point. Yes, gun laws have decreased the amount of people killed by guns in Britain. However, you're not analyzing the important dimension: the actual murder rate.


The murder rate in the UK may be the highest in 100 years but it's still 1/4 the rate of the US. There were 853 murders, manslaughters and infanticides in England and Wales in the 2003/2004 period. That's out of a population of 52 million. hosb1004chap123.pdf

When you're dealing with murder numbers that are that small, a small increase of crimes can make a big percentage jump. For instance, in 2002 there was a huge increase in the murder rate due to 173 murders committed by Harold Shipman.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 06:47 PM
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IMHO I would say that gun ownership in the U.S. has more to do with the John Wayne culture you have and the criminal thing is just an excuse to play out your John Wayne fantasies.


And anyone that drinks tea is a pansy ass!

Just kidding. I do find that statement insulting however.
Please don't assume to know about American culture because you moved here 16 years ago. I grew up with guns. Guns are my hobby. I shoot target of every kind, Pistol, Rifle, shotgun, rimfire rifle and if something new comes out I'll try that as well. I have no "John Wayne fantasies" in fact I hate westerns

That is my primary reason for gun ownership. The other reasons didn't really even arise until I reached somewhere around 18 years old.
My relatively small-town outlook on things changed. Partly due to the fact that murders were occurring within one mile of my new school on a weekly basis as well as one on the front steps. That was also the time when I started REALLY paying attention to world history and looking deeper than what the textbooks had to offer.
I suddenly realized that if I were jumped by four or more thugs with knives that there would be little chance of getting out alive if not armed.
Unfortunately the state law changed the minimum age of handgun sales to 21 so I was forced to wait.
When I turned 21 I bought a cheap little pistol. I was actually surprised by how easy it was back then. Anyhow, I lived and worked back in small-town so the pistol sat in a safe for YEARS since it was too small to do any effective target shooting with it. It really is a piece of junk, I keep it for nostalgia
.
A couple of years ago I decided I wanted to get into pistol target shooting. Well, this is not as easy in America as many of you seem to think!
I want to give you an example of what one has to go through to get a pistol permit in Connecticut, USA.

1st You must attend handgun safety classes.
2nd Pass a test (too easy in my opinion)
3rd Get an application from your local police station.
4th Answer all of the questions* on the application truthfully and sign in the presence of a notory public who must stamp and sign the form.
5th Make an appointment with the police station designated to do fingerprinting.
6th Go to your appointment and be fingerprinted, like a criminal, by a cop who has NO clue what he's doing...TWICE! Once for the State and another for the FBI.
7th Go home and wait up to three months for a phone call. This is the moment of truth in CT, a "may-issue" state as opposed to a "shall-issue" state. That, however, is for a different discussion.
8th Hope and pray that the idiot cop didn't screw up your prints as in my case

8a In my case, go back and re-do clean prints with a competent cop. Go back to step 7.

8b Clean prints get you to the next step, HOORAH!

9th Go and pick up your "temporary permit" which consists of a little piece of paper (5"x3") that says you can posess/carry a handgun in your home town for 30 days.
10th go to the state department of public safety headquarters many miles away to have your digital photograph taken and then receive your 5 year permit.
After 5 years (I hope) you return to step 10 only.

Oh, I forgot the costs.
Classes $200
Fingerprinting $21
Temporary permit $35
5 Year Permit (recurring)$35

Total $291.00 and a CLEAN* police record.

Now, the primary conditions that prevent ownership of ANY firearm are these:
*

1) Has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
(2) Is a fugitive from justice;
(3) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
(4) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa;
(6) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) Having been a citizen of the United states, has renounced his or her 8 citizenship;
(8) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
(9) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information. [18 U. S. C. 922( g) and (n), 27 CFR 178.32( a) and (b)]


Again, These are the most basic of the FEDERAL rules concerning who may own a firearm. The states may and have made additions to these guidelines.

If anything, those of us who carry guns LEGALLY should be admired for our sparkling civil record
!



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 06:54 PM
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let me spell this out to you; anyone who thinks guns are good, and its ok to own one for any reason is a complete and total ____


(vulgarity removed)

[edit on 20-5-2005 by SkepticOverlord]



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 06:55 PM
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Gee, you seem to be the reasonable type we all want around here...



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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I live in England and i don't want anybody to have guns, anyone found carrying a gun should be jailed for at least 10 years. I think the Police ought to be armed to combat the criminals who use them but not free access for the public . This would lead to more killing as people would shoot first and ask questions later.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 07:03 PM
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You are SOOO wrong. Those of us who carry legally have to go by much stricter guidelines than the police when it comes to a shooting or even drawing situation.
If you draw a gun because some homeless guy is pushing you and telling you to give him a dollar you go to jail and lose firearm rights for life.
Notice I didn't say "shoot" I said DRAW. Yes it's a crime to pull a gun on someone unless "your life or anothers is in immenent(sp?) danger".
It's a burdeon I would rather not carry every day but one I will endure to prevent my family from losing me to a crack head looking for his next fix.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 07:14 PM
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I, like many people in the UK are concerned by the amount of violent crime that's occuring more and more on our streets, much of this is pretty random, unpremeditated and senseless and it seems to be on the increase. Personally I would hate to see easily aquired firearms factored into that situation. Agreed being jumped by four thugs with knives offers little chance of escape unless you could counter the attack with a firearm but if I can get one I'd imagine so could they whether legally or illegally, and four thugs with firearms pretty much decreases my chances even more.

IMHO the fewer guns the better.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 07:16 PM
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Fry 2, do you think its healthy to have such an obvious fixation on an object that is solely designed to kill something?



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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Ive lived a long time in the UK and i have never encountered what you have in the USA , not having guns is the best thing we did in this country. Ok some criminals have them but they will be caught because they carry guns , innocent people don't.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Fry2

IMHO I would say that gun ownership in the U.S. has more to do with the John Wayne culture you have and the criminal thing is just an excuse to play out your John Wayne fantasies.


And anyone that drinks tea is a pansy ass!

Just kidding. I do find that statement insulting however.


Sorry if you find my opinion insulting
Maybe you should start drinking tea. It's more healthy for you than playing with guns. And BTW adding "just kidding" doesn't make your statement any less insulting. Just makes you appear like you're hiding your true feeling behind a disclaimer.

The thing I find surprising in the U.S. is the paranoia you all have, perpetuated by the media. I have lived all over this country, more places than most Americans I might add. I also live in a so called high crime area now (inner city). I have never even been close to being jumped by any amount of people with any kind of weapons. Am I just lucky? I don't think so. To arm the population to the teeth because of some presumed threat is stupid. It just leads to the violence that is only presumed in the first place.
The majority of people murdered know their murderer, random murders are very rare.

You might not like John Wayne or Westerns, that analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally. You enjoy the power a gun gives you right? Makes you feel like a "real man"? That's the John Wayne syndrome.

I've enjoyed shooting guns myself (in the military) but when my own selfish pleasure is detrimental to the population as a whole, I'll willingly find something else to amuse myself. Type crap on a web forum while drinking tea is a good one.

I think Waco is a good indication that if the state wants rid of you, no amount of guns is gonna help you.

Guns make it easy to kill. There's a big difference between killing with a knife than a gun for example. You have to get up close and personal with a knife.
That's one of the reasons in countries without guns there's less murder.

Ever hear of a drive-by stabbing?



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 07:38 PM
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I know where you're coming from and I'm quite aware of the history of firearms. Knives were developed along the same lines as were rockets.
Somehow people seem to overlook the uses that don't support the "ban it" mentality.
I have NEVER killed with a firearm and hope that I never have to!
I don't see guns as anything more than a tool that I use primarily for recreation and secondarily as a means of self defense. There is a level of Zen to the shooting sports (except hunting I would think) that you need to experience for yourself. I can't really explain it.
Be careful not to judge me for something I am not. Just because I like to shoot holes in pieces of paper does not make me a violent person. Because I like to shoot clay pigeons out of the sky does not make me a killer. Because I sit down and clean my guns for hours after a long day of shooting does not make me a psycho, I'm only caring for my tools just as I would my car after a day of racing.
I am absolutely NO danger to you or anyone you know even though I own many firearms and carry one most of the time. You should spend your time worrying about that guy who just got out of prison for armed robbery to make room for another pot head. If we could just keep the violent A holes behind bars there would be no issue here!

BAH, It's pointless to try and reason this issue.
There are those of us who know guns are just tools used to OUR purposes.

or

Those who are convinced that the existance of guns drives people to murder. NO MATTER WHAT.

Why bother? If you can't comprehend history and your surroundings why would you listen to me?
Go ahead, get killed. It will either be some drug crazed fanatic or your own rulers who kill you. I don't plan on joining your club.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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I cant understand the reason Americans have to have guns, i suppose it makes it easier to kill one another, don't you think a gun free Country will be better?



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by Fry2

BAH, It's pointless to try and reason this issue.
There are those of us who know guns are just tools used to OUR purposes.

or

Those who are convinced that the existence of guns drives people to murder. NO MATTER WHAT.


Gun's don't drive to people to murder, it just makes it a lot easier to do.

I used to go to Nottingham (U.K.) a lot because it was a good place to go clubbing without worrying about violence (a lot of English towns can be pretty violent on a Sat/Fri night, lot of fights, due to alcohol usually). For some reason Nottingham was always pretty much violence free and it had something like a 6 women to every man (prob explains it?). It used to be called the "Queen of the Midlands" now it's called the "Gun crime capital of Britain".
Why?
Because young kids are buying into the American gang culture. Don't get me wrong there has always been gangs (I was in one) in Britain but we never even thought about guns 20 yrs ago.

Calling a gun a tool does not take away it's intended purpose, to kill. Where do you live that you need so much "protection"? I'd understand if you lived in Baghdad. Awareness of your surroundings and not putting yourself in a position that could endanger you is a far better way to protect yourself than carrying a gun IMHO.

If allowing me to have gun allows someone else to use that gun to kill, then I'll do without it. Simple as that. I don't care how much "pleasure" it might bring some people, it cause hell for others.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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Even taking away every lethal weapon through bans, if people wanted to kill one another they would come out swinging toasters or something. Toasters don't kill people, people kill people.

While the murder rate is going up in England and Ireland, the amount of murders commmited by firearms, thanks to the ban, is most definitely going down. Considering that a lot of the recent killings involved hot heads and alcohol, I am not sure of the wisdom of adding firearms to the mix.

The case in Georgia, America, where the compulsory gun ownership has led to a drop in violent crime, while being an interesting case is far from the ideal. I would like to see that same experiment in a more built-up area. Heh, I wouldn't want to live there while the experiment was going on though, human nature being what it is.

I spent some time in the military and enjoyed immensely firing various weapons at the state's expense. When I left, I left any desire to fire rounds at anything. I agree, having been a weapons instructor, that safety and respect for weapons is paramount.

I hope we never have to go as far as arming the police. It was said once that arming the police would only serve to raise the bar for criminals and lead to more guns in society. Sadly, criminals have gone and raised the bar themselves, so it may be up to an armed police force to bring back the gunless society, where state and private citzen alike no longer feel the need for this killing "tool" as it has been described previously.



posted on May, 19 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by Bulldog 52
I cant understand the reason Americans have to have guns, i suppose it makes it easier to kill one another, don't you think a gun free Country will be better?


Not really. Bottom line is that if someone wants to kill someone then someone will find a way. The actuallity of the gun doesn't make killing any worse or any better. It just is ...

Doctors kill more people annually in the US than guns. And every day, someone, somewhere, has an appointment with the worst doctor in america.

If you didn't grow up around firearms, you can't and can't be expected to undderstand the mentality of owning a firearm, anymore than most folks who have grown up with gun ownership can't understand your views of how evil gun ownership is.

Funny, I mean, I wouldn't shoot someone for it if I carried a pistol, but what is this thing in England with Happy Slapping? Happy???? Ummmmm..... OK!



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 02:58 AM
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well i'd say the sad case now is for many people guns are now the 'cool accessory'. I read an intresting but provoking article in the paper this morning, it was explaining that during the last gun amnesty (this is where you hand in illegal weapons to the police without prosecution) children as young as 7!!!! were handing in firearms, both replica and real.
Gun crime is being Glamorised in all walks of life, from music to films. Kids these days need good rolemodels both at home and in all aspects of life. It is no coincidence that the rate of single parents and the rate of anti social and yobbish are both at all time records.



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by Fry2
I have NEVER killed with a firearm and hope that I never have to!
I don't see guns as anything more than a tool that I use primarily for recreation and secondarily as a means of self defense. There is a level of Zen to the shooting sports (except hunting I would think) that you need to experience for yourself. I can't really explain it.
Be careful not to judge me for something I am not. Just because I like to shoot holes in pieces of paper does not make me a violent person. Because I like to shoot clay pigeons out of the sky does not make me a killer. Because I sit down and clean my guns for hours after a long day of shooting does not make me a psycho, I'm only caring for my tools just as I would my car after a day of racing.
I am absolutely NO danger to you or anyone you know even though I own many firearms and carry one most of the time. You should spend your time worrying about that guy who just got out of prison for armed robbery to make room for another pot head. If we could just keep the violent A holes behind bars there would be no issue here!

BAH, It's pointless to try and reason this issue.
There are those of us who know guns are just tools used to OUR purposes.

or

Those who are convinced that the existance of guns drives people to murder. NO MATTER WHAT.

Why bother? If you can't comprehend history and your surroundings why would you listen to me?
Go ahead, get killed. It will either be some drug crazed fanatic or your own rulers who kill you. I don't plan on joining your club.


You are right, the gun is a tool.


From dictionary.com
1. A device, such as a saw, used to perform or facilitate manual or mechanical work.
2. a. A machine, such as a lathe, used to cut and shape machine parts or other objects.
b. The cutting part of such a machine.

3. Something regarded as necessary to the carrying out of one's occupation or profession: Words are the tools of our trade.


A guns mechanial use as a tool is to kill. If you (global "you") own a gun (as a tool that is) then it is the tool of your trade, your trade in this case is killing. Ok you may only be practicing killing things, but it does not remove the fact that a guns purpose in this world is creating death. You (global "you") may say that firing guns at a range is somewhat meditative. There are a lot of other pass times that aren't so destructive. Personally I have lived my life without the need to fire gun to relax. I am not saying that someone who enjoys these pass times are dangerous. I would gladly sit down and have a cup of tea and a buscuit with Fry2 without fearing my life. I'm simply saying that participating in such pass times is perpetuating the life of the gun. You (global) are adding demand to the people who manufature guns. Which means even more guns floating around.

The war in iraq is a good example. The thought of Iraq having powerful weapons was an excuse to create billions of dollers worth of new weapons, more powerful weapons. Its a massive money making industry, and gun culture (vilent or non-violent) add their bit. Your money is helping people die.

There is no excuse for owning a gun. Not now, not ever.



posted on May, 20 2005 @ 07:06 AM
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For those intent on talking about this subject seriously I suggest a long look at the facts ace of base posted up.

In the UK we have hardly any gun crime and very few murders (try to stop playing the % game with the figures and concentrate on the actual number of offences).




There were 853 murders, manslaughters and infanticides in England and Wales in the 2003/2004 period. That's out of a population of 52 million. hosb1004chap123.pdf


......and all of this is without the consideration of the accidental injuries, maimings, deaths, questionable domestic killings and general lives under threat that occur in a society with guns.

More guns in UK society?
No thanks.



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