Explosions underneath the WTC Towers b4 they collapsed

djarums

Not sure what you meant by the last point, but:

* empathy is not the same as sympathy

* I agree you should not make your own conspiracy based on anything but accepted and tested fact

* the established facts are being withheld from public srutiny over and over again

* I accept you don't mean to diminish the importance to families affected by 9/11 of finding their answers.

Why oh why are we going to such lengths to prove AlQeada is innocent of this act when...and listen carefully this is where it gets tricky...THEY THEMSELVES CLAIM THEY DID IT, ARE GLAD THEY DID IT, WANT TO DO IT AGAIN, AND HAVE NO QUALMS ABOUT TELLING YOU THEY WANT TO DO IT AGAIN.

Time after time, we read posts about how the government "really downed those buildings" but when you have the actual people responsible, a money trail..along with their organization bragging about it not to mention the architects and engineers telling us exactly how the structure reacted to the heat of burning fuel weakening steel ( for our non-mechanical engineering group, heat will do that..its how metal is forged). The day the Towers went down the investigation began, the site was surveyed with LIDAR from the air and space. I might have been privy to a little more info on that than the average person having been at a presentation from the GIS director and seeing his office's initial maps and info.

Some of us have known since the 90s that an attack was possible and probable and those that didn't got a huge wake-up call. We were complacent in our defenses and we had just spent damn near a decade targeting our own middle Americans while using the same's tax dollars to educate our enemies and giving them refuge to plot and plan. We had an administration concentrating on breaking us down to socialize us for the rest of the world to use as a resource..when we should have been watching.

Look, 9/11 effected every single person on this planet, especially people who live in London, like myself.

I don't mind if you think differently, but i haven't seen a smoking gun indicating that Mossad and the US military/government were not involoved in planning and partly executing the attacks.

I am way too hot to think about this bul$hit now, London has had it's hottest week ever. Anyway, i'll be brief, if you don't question the official story, good, i hope you sleep well in your bed knowing that although you live in the country with the best military in the world, two of the most important buildings in your country can be hit by airoplanes hijacked by extremists using only boxcutters.

Finally, remember this before you nod off tonight:

"The 'outs' of Washington politics can often be found plotting the future in the think-tanks. Here you can find out what Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and many other prominent Bush administration hawks were thinking in 1997, as they set out a new conservative foreign policy doctrine to combine 'military might and moral leadership', which became the hawks' post-9/11 blueprint. At the time, the neo-conservatives were unclear as to whether their agenda would take hold: 'The process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalysing event-like a new Pearl Harbour.'
^^^^^^
Observer

news.globalfreepress.com...

"The process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalysing event like a new pearl harbour"

Well, what a coincidence, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Richard Perle got their "catastrophic and catalysing event", what a lucky bunch of guys, you'd almost think Bin Laden was doing them a favour, aye guys?

Please, read the original document, if you don't believe they said it:

www.newamericancentury.org...


Peace to everyone with their eyes wide open.

* I accept you don't mean to diminish the importance to families affected by 9/11 of finding their answers.

That was my last point MA. What I am trying to say is I am not trying to diminish the importance to myself of finding my answer. Use logic to understand what my point is... Then you'll understand a little more why this issue is that much more important to me.

[Edited on 8-8-2003 by Djarums]

Originally posted by Peace
"The process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalysing event like a new pearl harbour"

Well, what a coincidence, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Richard Perle got their "catastrophic and catalysing event", what a lucky bunch of guys, you'd almost think Bin Laden was doing them a favour, aye guys?

Please, read the original document, if you don't believe they said it:

www.newamericancentury.org...

Oh! Don't forget that the FBI bombed the WTC once already.

whatreallyhappened.com...

Look, 9/11 effected every single person on this planet, especially people who live in London, like myself.

Why would it especially affect you in London more so than the person standing under the millions of tons of falling debris when the towers collapse? A little self-important are we?

I don't mind if you think differently, but i haven't seen a smoking gun indicating that Mossad and the US military/government were not involoved in planning and partly executing the attacks.

This could be possibly the one statement on ATS ..ever..that I take issue with. I so appreciate your permission for me to think differently than you..for me to see Bin-Laden on a video he had made bragging about the success of his venture and calling for further attacks and think maybe he had a small role to play in it...but as for you wanting a smoking gun that says the US didn't down their own building? I'm not certain if you know what a smoking gun is. It is actually an incriminating piece of evidence, not one which disproves something..so you maybe be looking for a smoking gun (evidence) that the US did plan and down its own buildings..to which I haven't seen. Its one thing for you to sit over there and speculate on all the various ways you can hang this on everybody except the people that did it...close your eye's real tight and wish like there's no tomorrow.

i hope you sleep well in your bed knowing that although you live in the country with the best military in the world, two of the most important buildings in your country can be hit by airoplanes hijacked by extremists using only boxcutters.

I actually sleep better now knowing we have awaken to the threat and the gloves have come off. I'll bet you couldn't hijack a plane full of grandmas with an uzi in the US today. ...and I thought you just told me it wasn't extremist using boxcutters? Maybe I read you wrong.

For you to hold the opinion that anyone other than the ..and we're getting tricky again..THE PEOPLE WHO THREATENED DOING FOR YEARS, CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY AND BRAGGED WHEN IT HAPPENED, AND VOWED TO DO IT AGAIN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR 9-11 then either you are peddling propaganda or a very confused individual wrapped up in anti-American sentiment which has lost its reason for being and is now an empty entity fostering hate and violence for no more than a religious jihad bent on world domination and mass genocide.

Have some of you people read the 9/11 timeline. It takes a while to get through but when you look back at the entire line of events leading up to 9/11 there are way too many coincidences to be accounted for. While I dont belive the goverment or Mossad did it themselves, I do think the goverment knew about it and looked the other way. Read the timeline and then come to your own conclusions. The fact of the matter is that there is always going to be people who wonder what really happened leading up to 9/11 and on that day. But you really cant do anything about it but just move on.www.unansweredquestions.org...

astrocreep

Actually, Osama Bin Laden has never been seen bragging about any role on 9/11 in any video.

Are you an Arabic speaker? Have you seen an unexpurgated, undubbed version of anything the guy has ever said?

Read a little more widely than your current diet, and you will find more to this than what certain players want you to believe.

Follow the ATS motto.

Sigh.Astrocreep, you are the very thing I fear is whats destroying our country. Blind following obiedient drones to the media.

Al Qaeda did NOT admit to the attacks after they happened, Bin Laden vehnemently denied them and eve offered to turn himself in to a NEUTRAL international court of law to be tried. The US refused. The tapes with Bin Laden supposedly claiming credit for it were found two months later, convientlay, in an abandoned house in Afghanistan. One would think a madman who is sloppy enough to leave this crap laying around so we can find it would be pretty easy to catch. Oh, and by the way, many credible experts have disputed the quality and accuracy of the tape. That tape in a sane court of law would have been laughed at.

Operation Northwoods. 40 years ago our govornment planned on committing acts of terror against its people and assets to rally up unblinding unwavering support for any invasion of whatever enemy. Cuba was the main one at the time. It is not beneath our govornment to do such things. And israel? The attacks on the USS Liberty in 67 should show where Israel stands on such things. It is not only well within thier capability, but well within thier doctrines and purpose.

Who really flew those planes into the WTC? Could have been terrorists. But, well......theres so much bull# about 9/11 and how they discovered the identities of the terrorists that well, I am beginning to wonder of it was even really Arabs who did it. Could have been. Just not THOSE Arabs.

Who else, is the question, who would be so fanatical that they would gove thier own lives for this cause? The CIA? I doubt CIA pilots flew those planes into the buildings, the CIA is far too cynical for such a thing. That leaves thier sister org, the Mossad. And yes, the Mossad, fanatical Zionists WOULD die without question if it is to further the interests of Israel and Zionism. Mossad then? perhaps.

Or it could have been terrorists who did it, with the invisible aid of the US. perhaps, lets say, the CIA discovred this plot in the making, and after a bit of thinking, realized it could have been beneficial. After discussing it with thier pals, they decided it could work. So, they monitor this org, send in agents who can pass as fellow Arabs. Giving them pointers. Making immigration ignore flags to their entrance in the country. providing easy acess to flight schools, ect. The terrorists would be none the wise of who is really feeding them, they would simply think, a benevolent buddy. A paralel to this would be say, you live in a big nice house with guards and security alarms. You know these guys down the block that have broken into your house before. You have run into money trouble, and need some insurance money quick. So, u discover said thieves plan to bust into your house. perfect! Everything is insured. So, you find out when. You send third parties to feed them info and help them aquire lockpicks. On the night of the break in, you leave every door and window unlocked. You send the guards home or drug them, and turn off your alarms. You leave cash and jewlery out on the table in plain view. Thus, you have made it easier for them to break in and take stuff. the next morning you feign horror, call the cops, say you saw these men and thier descriptions. Burgalrs arrested, you collect the money, ect. Not out of the real of impossibility.

Since 9/11, Americans have blindly backed and supported whatever crazy bull# idea the govornment shoved in front of us without question. Something we have never done before. The govornment, through its part in 9/11, has gained its insurance money: the unwavering and blind support of the American public to instil and enforce whatever policies they like, the constitution be damned.

Israel has benefitted as well. Oh, sure, they are getting a rash of Palestinian suicide bombings. Minor, compared to what they gained: the Iraqi oil pipeline opened for first time since 1948, giving Israel a flood of oil. Thier biggest local threat has been eliminated, and all thier enemies are in line for elimination. Israel has gained bigtime. So has our gov.

As to the WTC, I still believe my aunt. There was a few seconds of delay between the time she heard the loud boom, and when she saw the south tower sink below the skyline. Implosion? I think so. Dont care what others may think, theres alot of evoidence pointing to it, and the main theory of jet fuel melting beams and that rot......it looks funnier and more ridiculous everytime i see it.

Skadi

A great post, and you have been AWOL too long.

Thanks, Av, and youre right. Problems locally had to be attended to.....

It was the hedgehog after all, wasn't it?

Ever since Friday 13th, things just didn't sound peachy-keen to me in the Evil Elf neighborhood.

Okay since I apparently have offended all the fans of Alqeada here, I'll let you all go on with your fantasy camp. Everything you all put forth is nothing other than speculation without proof. You say that video of Osama would not hold up in court..well would your accusations alone fare any better?

As for the people blindly supporting wha the governemt wants to do..i would tell you that for most of Clinton's second term, most people ( although not the 5% the liberal media has given the stage too) but most middle Americans have been calling for action. After 9-11 it was not a matter of Bush pushing enduring freedom, it was about him getting his butt in gear..and fast.

I say, criticize the government all you want..Lord knows I do enough of that..but do it for legit reasons..over-taxation and waste. Attacks on the Constitution and State's rights. I dare say that everyone of you that made allegations of the government's involvement in 9-11 would turn right around and argue to give the very same a$$holes more power and money through higher taxes because when it comes to helping the poor, you believe they wear halos and have the best at heart for evryone...as long as they register under the right party name huh?

Sigh.Astrocreep, you are the very thing I fear is whats destroying our country. Blind following obiedient drones to the media.

Oh and just one more thing for you to sigh over... my family have been in the US since before thre was a US. Shed blood through every war to uphold the only thing that has kept most of the ungrateful world from the same genocidal ideology that you seek to defend. I take your comment as a personal insult, sir. I'm whats destroying America ..because I have the nerve to form a different opinion..maybe because I have absorbed a little more first hand info. Thats my right until you succeed in removing it from me..Lotsa luck.

Astrocreep

Your supporting Bush, yet you say fight against the people who are wasting, overthrowing the constitution ect? Bush has all but eliminated the Constoitution! Helllllllllllllllllllo! Partiot act! Waste? the Iraq war is a big waste!

Yopure right, Clinton was a turd who did nothing when Al Qaeda really DID bomb us (Khobar Towers, USS Cole, Embassy, first WYC bomb). He admitted to those acts, he didnt admit to 9/11. If Bin Laden did it he would have admitted it. He is too much a dedictaed fanatic to lie. Alaah would not be pleased if he lied, in his twisted mind. Al Qaeda didnt do it, at least, not directly. Evidence abounds that they didnt.

But you want to continue to support the madman in office who is wasting our money, ignoring our economy, destroying the constitution, and yes, undermining states rights. Think, damnit. Youre supporting another terrorist, one more dangerous than Bin laden and his 40 mgoat herders.

In my post I believe I DID SAY that I criticized Bush over waste and over taxation but if you believe that started when he came in you're nuts. I'd rather see 10 million a year go toward kicking terror's butt than to finance Jesse Jackson's continued promotion and exploitation of racism.

So, you're on the record that UBL had nothing to do with 9-11? I just wanna make sure we are straight on which sides of the fence we stand on. You're saying Bush Cheny masterminded the whole thing to get into Afghanistan?

astro

For mine, I have no conclusive evidence that OBL was or wasn't involved.

All the most pertinent evidence has been withheld entirely from 9/11 investigators and the probes will continue for months to come. I hope it's soon enough to get rid of the corrupt incumbent administration.

I know that he has never admitted his involvement on any video, that is all. Yes, I have read direct translations of the undoctored videos, and while this guy might praise Allah (if he is a believer and not a liar) that 9/11 occured, he has never claimed any responsibility, full stop.

You don't offend me, you only offend sensibilities.

Well, fine M.A. I'll duck out of this so you and Skadi can hi-five and slap rear ends over your theories. Forgive me for taking a little wind out of the sails of conspiracy. Hope maybe one day you and old UBL can meet and have a drink or two.

My whole point in getting into this was to explain the engineering properties of the collapse and the readings on geo-instrumentation since I do it for a living...but far be it for me to inject a little professional knowledge on this free for all of ignorance. I was only reading the ATS motto at the time. Maybe we should amend it to say, Deny Ignorance..until it foils a cool conspiracy? Whatta ya think..maybe too long for a bumper sticker huh?

Look maybe I just need to bow and and get some sleep before I start to earn my handle. peace, brothers.

On the record, yes, i do believe that Bush and Cheney and thier buddies had a big hand in it, a plan I think was in the process long before even they took office. And for the record, no, I dont think Osama had anything to do with it. he is guilty of porevious attacks, yes, I wont deny that, he did do the previous bombings. Note that all of them are either car bombings, in front of major us buildings. 9/11 isnt his style, nor does AlQaeda ALONE and unaided have the resources to pull this off. To do it, they would have had to have the help of a very POWERFUL buddy. Something this massive, this coordinated, this accurate and well done., so to speak, is beyond the resources of most govornments, unless they are very rich, resourceful, and powerful.

Yes astrocreep, thats the problem with people like you. You assume anyone who doesnt squeeze thier braisn into the narrow prison of blind belief and media obiedience must love terrorists, cuz if we aint with bush, were against america, and thus, pro terrorist. I lost 3 buddies in ther Khobar Towers bombing. i was pissed at clinton for not doing anything about them, or the 1993 WTC attacks. But I am not so blind as to ignore the galring, blatant lies, inconsistancies, and bull# surrounding 9/11, and I am to quick to pin the blame on bin laden for this one, despite his track record, when evidenmce points to him not doing it.

But go ahead and wave your flag about, its your right. Im simply trying to to save this country from blind subserviences and obiedience to an evil govornment. youre entitled your fantasies, its still a free country, enjoy it while it lasts.

I'm responding to the first post, as I have not read everyones replies, so if I repeat something koodos.

I honestly and completelty believe the towers were braught down by professional demolitions experts as they fell in accourdence with implosion techniques. I saw them both fall live on the news, I was awake to see the second impact via news as well, and was glued for nearly three months watching the coverage. A very depressing moment in history world wide as I in Michigan know a person who lost his only surviving family member to that bs! And was there for him as best I was able to help him deal with it. To this day I feel that those families and everyone else has lost more than could ever be replaced. As thats not possible...

Do not trust the media, as it is nothing more than a "Propaganda tool".


[Edited on 9-8-2003 by ADVISOR]