Is there special treatment for Masons from Masons

In other words, you can't. I present my information, now debunk it with something other than "because I said so".
And yes Mirth, the scans are comming, so take xannax or something.
I don't make a habbit of lying.

Originally posted by twitchy
In other words, you can't. I present my information, now debunk it with something other than "because I said so".

What's the point twitch? You're absolutely convinced that the garbage you're spreading is true. So much so that you're blind and cannot and will not see the truth. Why should we waste valuable time on the likes of you? Do you think you're that important? Well, SURPRISE!

Besides, if you'd go to the trouble to search..you'll find that all the same rot that you're taking up space posting has been posted, debunked, re-posted and debunked again. ...and again ....and again. It's a futile effort. Hell, be ignorant. Ignorant people are happier than most.

And yes Mirth, the scans are comming,

We all await that I'm sure. By the way "coming" has one "m" not two.

so take xannax or something.

You're fond of those double letters, aren't you? You mean "Xanax?" How DARE you! Do you have any idea what those do to monkeys? (Steady there Mirth!)

I don't make a habbit of lying.

No, you're too lazy and uneducated as to the topic to actually lie. You make a HABIT (again w/ the double letters) of spreading OTHER peoples lies. Like the nonsensical quotes from anti-Masonic websites.

You should learn to do REAL research. The internet is a wonderful thing, but there are FAR better sources for information out there...they're just a bit harder and more time-consuming to utilize. Ever heard of a LIBRARY?

Funny thing is, if you went to a Masonic Library (there are MANY across the country) they'd welcome your research...but hell, it's SO much easier to glean stuff & nonsense off the web and call it research.

Sheesh

SURPRISE
DARE
HABIT
OTHER
REAL
FAR
LIBRARY
MANY
SO

I think what you were trying to say is that what twitchy is posting is much too close to the truth, and that members do not appreciate their membership in the club called into question.

Hmmm... I'm with you twitchy, it ain't hard to check the cipher (lu-cipher?) of an Atbash code, or anything like that. But its much easier to deny, than to ignore. Esp. when you don't have to address what people say specifically.

Originally posted by akilles
I think what you were trying to say is that what twitchy is posting is much too close to the truth, and that members do not appreciate their membership in the club called into question.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

AKILLES, leave it to you to be on twitchy's side. "Close to the truth"? Give me a break. Same old garbage. It's been over again and again.

Funniest part is...that any of us (myself included) participate in this ridiculous discussion. Nothing I (or any of the Masons) say will convince YOU or any of the trolls that Masonry isn't evil. There's only one way you can REALLY find out and quite frankly we don't want you in our "club" as you call it. There ARE standards, ya' know?

And nothing you or any of the trolls say or post or draw or puke will convince me to leave Freemasonry. Period.

it ain't hard to check the cipher (lu-cipher?)

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! That's HILARIOUS.
Let's see....lu = 3 = ci = 4 x 843.834 - 96 (ph) + 487/(er) = 666

Simply astounding!

Esp. when you don't have to address what people say specifically.

Oh, you actually said something? Sorry it must have gotten lost in all your B.S.

Perhaps next time.

By the way, to save you the trouble of re-typing the words I capitalized (whatever purpose that was supposed to serve...) I'll save you the trouble on this one.


AKILLES
YOU
REALLY
ARE
HILARIOUS




[edit on 2-6-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrak
Why should we waste valuable time on the likes of you? Do you think you're that important?

He said as he typed and typed the same impotent rhetoric as his bretheren, lacking both fact or reference.

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by senrak
Why should we waste valuable time on the likes of you? Do you think you're that important?

He said as he typed and typed the same impotent rhetoric as his bretheren, lacking both fact or reference.

Lacking fact or reference? Why, I do believe you have been proven absolutely wrong several times in this thread. You'd do best by not bringing unwanted attention to your flawed posts.

In any case, you're right, we have not posted as much evidence as we normally would, and the reason for this has been explained to you by Axeman. All the claims you have made have already been made before, and debunked, by other users. You need only to run an ATS search to find the same claims debunked with PLENTY of facts and evidence. There's no reason to re-invent the wheel.

[edit on 2-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by twitchy
Here's a novel conept Sabat-Work, proove I'm wrong. Proove I didn't get it from the pile of masonic books I have in my rather extensive library. I presented my evidence, now you disprove it.

That's just it, twitchy, you didn't prove anything. Now, if you had posted scans from that book (I assume it is in your "extensive library") that had the "quotes" you are trying to pass off on them, that might be something. But you didn't. You are evading, twitchy, and it is obvious.

As a side note, if you had a "pile of Masonic books" that you had actually read, you probably wouldn't have such negative views of the fraternity, unless of course you have the reading comprehension of a first grader, which I seriously doubt. You seem to be a smart guy, I just don't get why you keep this crap up.

I know more than I want to know about Ma Ha Bologna.

I seriously doubt the veracity of this statement, and your constant disrespect for an institution you do not understand does not speak well for you.

It's what other people don't know that this angry rhetoric of yours is all about.

In a way, you're right. People that come here looking for real honest answers about Freemasonry are assaulted with your nonsense, and for people who don't know any better that can be a dangerous thing.

A lie that goes unchallenged will often stand as truth. That's what people like you count on, and that's why people like me are here to set the record straight.

[edit on 6/2/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by twitchy
And yes Mirth, the scans are comming, so take xannax or something.
I don't make a habbit of lying.

Good thing I'm not on Xanax, because my prescription would have run out. I'm sure the delaying dilemma is merely one of "which overwhelming piece of evidence do I scan?" Just pick one, any one, I (and I think the Brethren here assembled) are just a bit curious to which Grand Lodge Jurisdiction Monitorial or Cipher would have the passages in it that you claim.

It's your habit that concerns me.

Anxiety Monkeys, not just waiting for scans that will never come anymore...

Yeah, thats cool.

I and I are going to start talking in the Royal We as well,
because we don't see why we should refer to ourselves in the singular.

I mean, we have two REAL brothers, so that must mean I speak for them at all times, right? Because surely WE have a stronger bond than some made up one?

And yet, I don't. Interesting concept letting your Brothers speak for themselves, and not using them for your own leverage. Just something my true Brothers taught me.

Originally posted by TrinitymanI have no idea which jurisdiction this is from

I think twitchy makes a good and solid point here, and its certainly not trollish. He notes that a mason can, and at times have, been able to use the group to get out of serious trouble, such as the case he notes of a masonic POW and 'guard'.

Of course, thats a small charge, and he doesn't state that the mason involved released the other masonic POW, just that he gave him preferential treatment. But that is the primary concern of this post.

I suppose that we can say that that sort of thing would infact go on today. If one of the masons here was, say, a guard at US Army prisoncamp in the middle east, in charge of detainees, and one found that one of the men detained under somewhat questionable circumstances was a mason, what would one be obliged to do? Or what if a prison riot broke out and you had to attend to your guardly duties, and this masonic detainee gave the grand hailing sign as he was attacked by other inmates or what have you?

I've noted that most masons her have stated that they are also required to act within the laws of the land tho. Are there any jurisdictions that don't require this?

Originally posted by twitchyWhat precisely have you proven Sabat-Work?

He seemed to have demonstrated that, at least in his jurisdiction, that these preferences can't exceed the bounds of the law. So if a mason were in his jurisdiction and a judge, he can't just dismiss the charges against a fellow mason. Or even give him a lenient sentence, merely because he is a mason, tho he could, presumably, say to himself 'i know this man is a mason, therefore I know that there is something redeemable in him, therefor I will give him less hard jail time and more 'work release' or somesuch. Then again, I would assume that that is a tricky subject for an honest person, to determine how much is special favour and how much is truthful intent. Having said that, the same sort of thing can apply to lots of people in lots of situations. 'I came from this kids neighborhood' or 'this one reminds me of when I was a troubled youth' etc.

For example, proove John Quincy Adams never said what I have quoted here

It would be best if you provided a citation for it.
I googled the text and it seems to be, acording to this page,
"LETTERS ON THE MASONIC INSTITUTION.
BY JOHN QUINCY ADAMS © 1996 Acacia Press, Incorporated"

a short review
Although inspired by the Morgan affair, the letters of John Quincy Adams had an anti-Masonic effect long after Morgan was forgotten. President Adams was never a Freemason; we have his own words as proof of that. That he was an implacable enemy of the institution is shown by his "Letters on the Masonic Institution" published in book form in Boston in 1847.

Tho, I question why Adam's feelings are of particular import. I haven't read the Letters, apparently very few people have. So what, from the letters, indicates that these charges are true??? What proof did Adams have that there was
"a code of Masonic legislation adapted to prostrate every principle of equal justice and to corrupt every sentiment of virtuous feeling in the soul of him who bound his allegiance to it. "???

"I doubt he said that" is insufficient

Agreed.

Proove he never said that

How can he tho, without a citation to verify??

In 1985, "Circuses" of the Shriners generated 23 Million Dollars, and only 2% went to medical care of children. In 1984, out of 17 Million Dollars only 1% went to charity, the rest for the Order!

I must say that that woudl appear to make it a very uncharitable charity. Extremely uncharitable infact. What are these 'cicruses'? Are they billed as fund raising events??

mm
Speaking of resources, I would hate to see you tie up your ATS upload allotment with this stuff, so I would suggest using www.photobucket.com... its free!

Also, twitchy, if there is a problem, you can always forward the scans to me and I can host them, mods have unlimited reserves of upload space (so long as each file meets the regular requirements). I use and like photobucket, but it tends to resize files randomly and can be a little annoying.

sebatwork
Like I told you before, these troll tactics will not work with me

I don't think that we can say that twitchy is a troll who is unwilling to discuss the issues, or that he is only posting in order to get a reaction, not to participate or anything else. I strongly disagree with his overall conclusion, but I don't think that that's enough to say he's an actual troll. Certainly there are going to be lots of people who are anti-masonic and who aren't going to be easily swayed, that doesn't make them trolls tho, it might make them unreasonable, depending on the strengths of the counter arguements presented to them, but not trollish.

Also, keep in mind, that there was once an entire political party in the US that was entirely centered around the idea that secret socieities are wrong and should be gotten ride of. the new anti-masonic league that twitchy says is forming should probably consider that, well, we've [we meaning the world] all been through this before, everyonce in a while anti-masonic hysteria builds up to a crescendo, and then is followed by a long anti-climatic denoument in which cooler heads prevail.

twitchy
the scans are comming

I think its important here to take note of the complete structure of the rules of whatever 'jurisdiction' those scans are for. Its not entirely horrible that a group should have some rite in which they say 'ill do whatever i can to help my brothers in need' and then have as an overarching rule 'Obey the law'. I am sure many greek college frats have similar things where they pledge fealty to each other and the fraternity, but that doesn't translate to treason.

Originally posted by TrinitymanI have no idea which jurisdiction this is from

I would be so bold as speaking for Trinityman here, the reason he is unsure of it's origins, is because it is not from any regular Grand Lodge.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I think twitchy makes a good and solid point here, and its certainly not trollish. He notes that a mason can, and at times have, been able to use the group to get out of serious trouble, such as the case he notes of a masonic POW and 'guard'.

An anecdotal account at best, while it is certain that the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress has been given, and relief provided; to imply that it's basis is for nefarious means is disingenuous. The part of the Obligation regarding the Grand Hailing Sign Of Distress is clear, “for those in imminent danger, and only if there is a greater probability of saving his life, than losing your own.” Doesn’t sound like getting out of a speeding ticket to me.

A Civil War account of Freemasonry relief.

www.freemason.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.freemason.org...

Of course, thats a small charge, and he doesn't state that the mason involved released the other masonic POW, just that he gave him preferential treatment. But that is the primary concern of this post.

I suppose that we can say that that sort of thing would infact go on today. If one of the masons here was, say, a guard at US Army prisoncamp in the middle east, in charge of detainees, and one found that one of the men detained under somewhat questionable circumstances was a mason, what would one be obliged to do? Or what if a prison riot broke out and you had to attend to your guardly duties, and this masonic detainee gave the grand hailing sign as he was attacked by other inmates or what have you?

Regardless of circumstance, your non-Masonic obligations come first. If there was a situation in which you could offer relief without breaking any other obligation, go for it.

Your duties as are follows:

To God, Freemasonry cannot, and will not change or alter your belief system.

To your country, Freemasonry cannot, and will not compel you to forsake your loyalty to the country of your birth.

To your family, Freemasonry cannot, and will not come before your responsibilities to your kin.

To your neighbor, Freemasonry cannot, and will not interject itself into the day to day relations you have with your fellow man.

To yourself, above all, Freemasonry cannot and will not make you betray your character or beliefs, that is the foundation, the very core of Freemasonry.

I've noted that most masons her have stated that they are also required to act within the laws of the land tho. Are there any jurisdictions that don't require this?

No regular Grand Lodge would promote such an agenda.

Impatient Monkeys, not just still waiting for the “scans” anymore…

Originally posted by Nygdan

I don't think that we can say that twitchy is a troll who is unwilling to discuss the issues, or that he is only posting in order to get a reaction, not to participate or anything else. I strongly disagree with his overall conclusion, but I don't think that that's enough to say he's an actual troll. Certainly there are going to be lots of people who are anti-masonic and who aren't going to be easily swayed, that doesn't make them trolls tho, it might make them unreasonable, depending on the strengths of the counter arguements presented to them, but not trollish.

Nygdan, those quotes were MADE UP. I couldn't possibly imagine ANY group of REAL masons actually teaching its members something like that. They are so completely and blatantly un-masonic that it sickens me that he would actually have the balls to make up those quotes, or cut and paste them from another source who made them up, in the company of actual masons who know better! I'm sorry, but I know those "scans" are never coming, because he doesn't have them. Plain and simple. If that's not a troll, what is???


[edit on 6-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Nygdan

In 1985, "Circuses" of the Shriners generated 23 Million Dollars, and only 2% went to medical care of children. In 1984, out of 17 Million Dollars only 1% went to charity, the rest for the Order!

I must say that that woudl appear to make it a very uncharitable charity. Extremely uncharitable infact. What are these 'cicruses'? Are they billed as fund raising events??

The purpose of the Shrine Circuses that perform throughout North America is to support the local Shrine Centers (formerly referred to as "Temples"). Purchasing tickets to these events are not tax deductible, and the proceeds are not intended for the Shrine Hospitals. Shrine Centers do provide a myriad of charitable functions throughout the year, since each one caters to the local needs, I would suggest you visit the one closest to you in order to get a feel for what they do. Shrine Centers do typically provide Shrine Hospital screening and clinic days, and it is quite impressive to experience.

www.shrinershq.org
Shriners Hospitals for Children is a network of pediatric specialty hospitals, founded by the Shrine, where children under the age of 18 receive excellent medical care absolutely free of charge. There are 18 orthopaedic Shriners Hospitals, three Shriners Hospitals dedicated to treating children with severe burns, and one Shriners Hospital that provides orthopaedic, burn and spinal cord injury care. Shriners Hospitals are located throughout North America — 20 in the United States and one each in Mexico and Canada. These "Centers of Excellence" serve as major referral centers for children with complex orthopaedic and burn problems.

There is never a charge to the patient, parent or any third party for any service or medical treatment received at Shriners Hospitals. Shriners Hospitals accept and treat children without regard to race, religion or relationship to a Shriner. Any child may be eligible for treatment at a Shriners Hospital if the child is under 18 and if, in the opinion of the hospital's chief of staff, the child has an orthopaedic or burn condition that Shriners Hospitals can help.

Sounds charitable to me.

www.shrinershq.org
Shriners Hospitals’ total budget for 2005 is $625 million, of which $580 million is targeted for operating expenses (including $28 million for research) and 45 million for buildings and equipment expenditures. During the 83-year history of Shriners Hospitals, approximately $7 billion has been spent to operate Shriners Hospitals, and over $1.7 billion has been spent on construction and renovation.

Can't do that with a circus once a year, it is done completely by private donations from within the membership and private citizens that support the cause. No government funding, not a part of the United Way or any other "charitable" organization.

www.shrinershq.org...

Shriner Monkeys, not just for "World's Greatest Philanthropy" anymore...

Originally posted by twitchy
Jack Straw M.P.
Home Secretary, United Kingdom
1997 Home Affairs Committee
Membership of secret societies such as freemasonry can raise suspicions of a lack of impartiality or objectivity. It is therefore important the public know the facts. I think it is the case that the freemasons said they are not a secret society but a society with secrets. I think it is widely accepted that one secret they should not be keeping is who their members are in the criminal justice system.

Some good quotes Twitchy, the one above however is irony, and was more about a Higher Secret Society letting the low level Freemasons know there place.


[edit on 6-6-2005 by ThePunisher]

Originally posted by ThePunisher
Some good quotes Twitchy, the one above however is irony, and was more about a Higher Secret Society letting the low level Freemasons know there place.

"Low-level" Freemasons? You're saying that the OLDEST, BIGGEST, MOST PRESTIGIOUS, MOST IMITATED and MOST INCLUSIVE private society in the world is "low-level"??? Sorry, but Freemasonry is one of a kind and there are no other organizations above it, below it, or even on par with it. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by ThePunisher
Some good quotes Twitchy, the one above however is irony, and was more about a Higher Secret Society letting the low level Freemasons know there place.

"Low-level" Freemasons? You're saying that the OLDEST, BIGGEST, MOST PRESTIGIOUS, MOST IMITATED and MOST INCLUSIVE private society in the world is "low-level"??? Sorry, but Freemasonry is one of a kind and there are no other organizations above it, below it, or even on par with it. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

HAHAHA don't ya know by now we as Freemasons are part of the devil worshipping occult denying head up our collective arses goat screwing sheep killing bathroom exploding Masonic God worshipping LOW LEVEL members of the New World Order?

Originally posted by mrfixit

Originally posted by sebatwerk
"Low-level" Freemasons? You're saying that the OLDEST, BIGGEST, MOST PRESTIGIOUS, MOST IMITATED and MOST INCLUSIVE private society in the world is "low-level"??? Sorry, but Freemasonry is one of a kind and there are no other organizations above it, below it, or even on par with it. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

HAHAHA don't ya know by now we as Freemasons are part of the devil worshipping occult denying head up our collective arses goat screwing sheep killing bathroom exploding Masonic God worshipping LOW LEVEL members of the New World Order?

I guess I must've missed the memo.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
"Low-level" Freemasons? You're saying that the OLDEST, BIGGEST, MOST PRESTIGIOUS, MOST IMITATED and MOST INCLUSIVE private society in the world is "low-level"??? Sorry, but Freemasonry is one of a kind and there are no other organizations above it, below it, or even on par with it. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

No i didnt say that re-read my post and its quote.

Originally posted by ThePunisher

Originally posted by sebatwerk
"Low-level" Freemasons? You're saying that the OLDEST, BIGGEST, MOST PRESTIGIOUS, MOST IMITATED and MOST INCLUSIVE private society in the world is "low-level"??? Sorry, but Freemasonry is one of a kind and there are no other organizations above it, below it, or even on par with it. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

No i didnt say that re-read my post and its quote.

So then you're talking about "low-level" members of Freemasonry? There's no such thing as "low-level" members, so why would you even say that?