Are You For Or Against The War In Iraq?

Mickey, it's VERY important to read the entire post. The first few lines were all leading up to my point that it is the enemy who ought to pull out. I go on to assert that although I'd obviously like to see us get out too, the only way we can afford to do it is by training and equipping sufficient Iraqi forces first.

It is time for a pullout! Iraq deserves PEACE!

Now for the punch line...
I definately think that the terrorists should pull out of Iraq. Bin Laden and his henchmen should give up their own dreams of personal power and let the people of Iraq have what they want- peace and prosperity.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Mickey, it's VERY important to read the entire post. The first few lines were all leading up to my point that it is the enemy who ought to pull out. I go on to assert that although I'd obviously like to see us get out too, the only way we can afford to do it is by training and equipping sufficient Iraqi forces first.

Oh.....

Yes i totally agree, the coalition needs to train and eqip the Iraqi forces to defend themselves.
Once this has been achieved our boys can come home!

Mic

Then I'd say you and I are in full agreement. A while back EastCoastKid and I tried to put together a letter writing campaign on ATS in order to have US congressmen compromise with the antiwar movement, by not demanding a pullout, but at least demanding an estimate on how many Iraqi forces it would take to make it possible for our boys to come home- just so we'd at least have a clearly defined goal to reach.

Unfortunately, the membership here at ATS was mostly not interested. I think we had 12 people, and one of them only agreed to help on the condition that I write the letter for them. -shakes head-
Makes me wonder if civilians even give a care about our boys over there fighting on their behalf. ECK and I gave our service and know the people who are over there- that's why we'd like to see it finished sooner rather than later. Seems like most people only care about it because it's convenient for them politically. It sure saddens me to watch this war. Half of my country is willing to see my fellow Marines slaughtered from here to kingdom come rather than say one word against Bush. The other half is willing to tuck tail and run, causing their sacrifice to be in vain, just so that they can say Bush failed.
It's always nice to hear anybody agree that they want to win and then bring my friends home. For that matter- it would be me they were waiting to welcome home if I hadn't screwed my back up in training.

It's good to see that iraqi's are finally forming community circles to weed out the foreign intruder's that come from syria and pakistan, iran, and s arabia, egypt, ect to blow them selves up... It's good to see they are getting sick of the # and doing something about it.

Now maybe soon armymen and women can go back home?

not.. not for another few years I'm guessing.. they have a long way to go until these guys slow it down. But I doubt it, cuz they are signing up 'maryter's in iran as we speak, and that includes women and children.

I feel i'm undecided on the subject. I don't believe they found wmds, but i think they found them 15 years ago. And for some strange reason bush sr pulled out way to early. Now, they still have an excuse (they had wmds) to invade, i doubt it matters how late they get to it, as long as the said country did have them. I'm kind of for it considering the possiblities for the people, maybe there future will be extremely bright. But i'm also against it considering bush and blair told us a half truth anyway. I still don't know why we were there because of terorrists, at first, wasn't bin ladin connected to saddam?. I also would like to add one more thing, the past few years have been hard. But what i don't understand is, why do we have to give up or commerce for security. While everyone in his country is unemployed? I still don't find bush's views swallable. And it still puzzles me why people still put faith in him.

[edit on 20-7-2005 by malakiem]

Against I feel that faulty intellegence supplied by suspect allies, with their own military agendas made our Government and defense establishment and military branches unwitting pawns I ask myself just who really profits at the expense of American treasure and blood and Israel comes to mind and behind or after that defense contractors who own those global multinationals that always make a profit when millions die in any of these wars then I look at the leaders and ask myself what have they accomplished .

Originally posted by pantheria
when millions die in any of these wars then I look at the leaders and ask myself what have they accomplished .

They have accomplished everything!

You must remember, that although many will die now, they are making a better future for their children and their childrens children!

It is very sad to see the amount of casualties that come with war, but it means the people of the future will have a better and free life!

What planet u r living at when talking about terrorism and iraq at same sentence? That country had nothing to do with terrorism. Only islamic fundamentalists who have been here came just before us attacked. Why ? Because they hate usa all they can and usa isn´t helping out a bit. But now there is only a crippled country where the people who "resist" usa´s conquer are still fighting back as insurgents/terrorist/fundamentalists what ever, they are just fighting against the power who now habits their country. Can´t really blame them, every people in this planet doesn´t give their country or freedom without a fight.
-aape

Originally posted by aape
What planet u r living at when talking about terrorism and iraq at same sentence?

I live on the same planet as Abu Nidal and the PLF.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.foxnews.com...

I also live on the same planet where Iraqi military headquarters in Nasiriya contains a mural commemorating Septermber 11th- with an Iraqi Airways plane being shown as the attacker.

Obviously Saddam has absolutely ZERO sympathy for or affiliation with terrorists. None at all. Really.

Can´t really blame them, every people in this planet doesn´t give their country or freedom without a fight.
-aape

Yes, they are fighting for their freedom because they can't stand the incredible oppression that the Great Satan has brought into the Utopia that Saddam built for them. It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that Saddam's experts who were operating training camps for terrorists formed an organization called the Fedayeen Saddam to terrorize the Iraqi people and harrass US and allied forces.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I live on the same planet as Abu Nidal and the PLF.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.foxnews.com...

Abu Nidal committed "suicide" with several bullets before the war, using him as justification for the Iraq war is a complete fraud. Doesn't seem from that example like they were on that friendly terms. Considering Salman Pak, that's just Fox News at it again. They found nothing there, it appeared to be a training camp for the Republican Guard and Fedayyin. If Salman Pak really was a terrorist training camp, the Bush administration would have been all over it, would have given journalists guided tours in it and shouted from the rooftops: see that we were right?

Originally posted by The Vagabond
I also live on the same planet where Iraqi military headquarters in Nasiriya contains a mural commemorating Septermber 11th- with an Iraqi Airways plane being shown as the attacker.

That just shows you ain't popular in some parts of the Arab world. Big surprise, I wonder why. Maybe 500,000 dead Iraqi children have something to do with it. If a mural indicating a certain hatred of the US is justification, why don't you whipe out the entire muslim population of the Arab world in concentration camps just to be sure? Or the rest of the world's population as the image of the US is not that positive anymore.

[edit on 22-7-2005 by Simon666]

He ticked Saddam off and ended up dead, but he was there and had been for quite some time.
You make a regular habit of claiming that something is not true simply because people didn't react it to the way you expected. That's simply invalid.
Saddam was hosting a well known vicious terrorist in his nation, was training terrorists in his nation, and consequently had plent of facilities and qualified people in his nation to train his Fedayeen Saddam, resulting in the discovery of terrorist camps in Iraq as well as the impressive amount of terrorist activity in Iraq.

Last but not least, 500,000 dead Iraqi Children who died even though the UN Oil For Food Program should have been providing for them. Killed by Saddam because he was using oil vouchers as bribes and funnelling cash for inappropriate purposes. Why don't you find out how many of those were the children of Sunni Ba'athists- it should reveal quite a bit about who really did the killing.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
He ticked Saddam off and ended up dead, but he was there and had been for quite some time. You make a regular habit of claiming that something is not true simply because people didn't react it to the way you expected. That's simply invalid. Saddam was hosting a well known vicious terrorist in his nation, was training terrorists in his nation, and consequently had plent of facilities and qualified people in his nation to train his Fedayeen Saddam, resulting in the discovery of terrorist camps in Iraq as well as the impressive amount of terrorist activity in Iraq.

Well, in an interesting twitch, I found this on Wikipedia:

Palestinian sources, however, told journalists that Abu Nidal had died of multiple gunshot wounds. Jane's reported that Iraqi intelligence had been following him for several months and had found classified documents in his home about a U.S. attack on Iraq. When they arrived to raid his house on August 14 (not 16 August, according to Jane's), fighting broke out between the ANO and Iraqi intelligence. In the midst of this, Abu Nidal rushed into his bedroom and died, though Jane's writes that it remains unclear whether he killed himself in there or was killed by someone else. Jane's sources insist that his body bore several gunshot wounds. Jane's further suggests that Saddam may have ordered him arrested and killed because Abu Nidal was a mercenary who would have acted against Saddam in the event of an American invasion, had the money been right.

If the reputable Jane's has its information right, then it seems that Abu Nidal is only a terrorist for the US when convenient in propaganda against Iraq, and an asset if he could have been of importance against Saddam. There have also not been found any terrorist camps in Iraq, apart from one in Northern Iraq, which was actually located in the no fly zone where the US used to operate anyway, outside of Saddam's reac h.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Last but not least, 500,000 dead Iraqi Children who died even though the UN Oil For Food Program should have been providing for them.

You seem to forget that in the first few years after 1991 there was NO oil for food program and that Oil For Food in fact DID save a lot of childrens lives.

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Simon666]

I don't think religions or good intentions stop people from doing illegal, imorale and terrible things--other people do, at least most of the time. When the, for want of a better word, true Muslims of the various countries have had enough of the actions of their countrymen, then and only then will this idiotic behavior stop. It may take years to stamp this pestilence out, but it will not be done by any outside force trying to impose its will upon a non-receptive population and it will only be done when such behavior is condemned from within, by their society at large.

Iraq is a good case in point. The U.S. & the U.K. may have led the coallition into Iraq for the wrong publicly stated reason, but that doesn't make what they are doing wrong. It doesn't mean they shouldn't have gone into Iraq. There were plenty of other reasons to throw Saddam Hussein and his regime out on the street. Does anyone in the world really dispute that he was abusing the Iraqi people? Does anyone think he was a nice guy who had the best intrests of his countrymen at heart? Does anyone not know that he used WMD's on the Kurds? That he was attempting to develop atomic weapons and would have done so if not for Israeli efforts earlier and the coallition efforts in 1991 and afterwards.

Inside Iraq, most Iraqi's know the U.S. led coallition is not there to take over their country and force them to do things against their own beliefs, but some Iraqi's don't yet realize this. Further, some ignorant, mostly extremely poor, or idealistic people inside Iraq and in nearby countries have been fed inflamatory propaganda by entrenched, so called, religious and political groups that stand to lose much of their power, prestige and influence when and if the government of Iraq goes democratic. Furthermore, political dissidants and opposition politicians outside of Iraq (generally, but not always, inside the countries of the coallition partners) promote disunity and factionalism as a means of enhancing their own prestige and/or increasing their chances of election in the near future, or of gaining some leverage for their own agenda. Moreover, some non involved countries, which likewise stand to lose power, prestige and influence in Iraq, or in some cases lucrative business contracts or investments, speak out against coallition efforts. While yet others worry that their country could be next. Stir into this mix the pacificists and horrow stricken who oppose all armed efforts on personal moral grounds. (If I left any group out, forgive me, my mind went numb.) Finally, exacerbating this complex, difficult, delicate situation is an international press corps which sensationalizes events on a daily basis as an accepted and "normal" course of doing business. Put all these ingredients in a large oven & broil at high heat and what you end up with is a recipe for complete frustration and ineffectiveness. It's an absolute miracle that anything gets accomplished at all.

The saddest part of all this is that it's the Iraqi people themselves who suffer. The coallition is trying to bring electricity to those without it, they are trying to repair and improve the water & sewage systems, they are trying to build new and better schools and hospitals, fix the roads, organize a police force, etc., etc., etc.. They aren't trying to force anything on anyone, least of all some particular sort of government or way of thinking. And you know what, they are doing it with their own money and resources--at huge expense, even while their own people are dying in the effort.

Just what would you have them do that they aren't already trying? Would you have them simply walk away and leave things as they are? Just leave the poor people there to their own devices? Let the lawless elements take over and beat them down again? Let some group like the Taliban or Al Qaeda take power and gear up for more attacks like 9/11, or 7/7? The world should be proud of what the coallition is doing, not throw rocks at them for trying.

Perhaps the terrible events of the past few days will help forge a better working alliance between all the countries striving to eradicate terrorism. A much better coordinated response is clearly needed. The kicker here is going to be sharing intelligence available to various countries, as that requires a high degree of trust in one another. Mayby it's time to get the Israelis involved again in all this business as they certainly have one of the best intel organizations around.

As much as it may gall everyone involved, I firmly believe serious economic aid to poor Middle-Eastern and South-East Asian countries would go a long way towards curtailing the feelings of helplessness and despair that fuel the various terrorist movements. People who believe they have something to lose are not going to so readily become suicide bombers and terrorists.

Originally posted by MickeyDee
Alot of people on ATS express their views on the ongoing war in Iraq.

And this thread is for people to answer just two questions that i have:

1. Do you support the war in Iraq? (This also includes if you did but no longer do).

2. Why? (Your reasons for being for or against the war)!

I just wanted to know if the majority of ATS is for/against the war!

I am in the US Army and DID support the war at first. I was all about it until the " Mission Accomplished" speech. We went in, overthrew and dictator who we believed to have WMD's and actually didnt. Iraw may have had a horrible leader, but things were much better then than they are now. At least then they had some sort of a stabilized country. We have no business there now.

I look at it this way. back during the Revolutionary War the Brits invaded and waged war on us. We of course were not going to stand for that and organized militias to fight the British. In our own way Americans were in fact "Insurgents". What makes us any better than the Iraqis? We didnt stand for a foreign army occupying our country, why should they stand for us occupying theirs? Just my 2 cents.

I am against the war.
Saddam was a better leader than most of the leaders that killed him.
I overheard the planners of the war. They want the oil and the humanitarian mission is a lie.

reply to post by ccantey6204


Exactly. Would the proud Americans who are surprised Iraqis are fighting invaders simply sit down if North Korean tanks rolled through Washington DC? I highly doubt it.

We shouldn't have gone in. Obviously Saddam was a vicious nutcase, but that's no reason to screw up an entire country, killing hundreds of thousands in the mean-time. Iraqis didn't have a functioning democracy then, and they still don't have one. The act of voting does not make a democracy, which was true during Saddam, and after. We've not improved Iraq, we've ruined it.

Saddam HATED Osama Bin Laden, so saying we went into Iraq for terrorism-related reasons is pretty silly. Saddam, on the Al Qaida subject, was a great ally in the region, denying OBL from using Iraq for recruitment or training. Iraq was a modern, secular country. Now it's a backwards reactionary-Islamic country, with massive amounts of fighting between Iraqis.

Just counter thinking! What if a extra terristrial alien specie uses the same arguments against USA and World and attacks it??????

being a canadian I do support of the war in iraq and so we do have deal with the saddam any more I sick his threats towards the western countrys
and Israel, allies in the middle east and useing his country of as terrorist groups hide out and the unted states and others kick his ass out of kuwait
in operation desert storm and they show is boss and my prayers those who loss there lives and the wouned and the family and freinds who support them and the ones they love and still countine this day no matter what it cost and one thing we have freedom and make sure they do not come our truf and we will be wiating for them our people that guard us 24/7 do matter what country has anti- terrorism laws

and we never forget 9/11 that change our history but we now the
people that have there guard up all times and support our allies
overseas etc for help and still remneber people who died on 9/11 and other terrorist attacks in this world and we know a wake up call for another type of people and like the nazi in ww1,ww11 why the people
rise up and give back us freedom same with dealing with war on terrorism