About History

I dont believe that what we learn in history is real. Like how all these setterlers keep journals of their travel. I dont really believe that. what do you guys think. Any other topics to talk about this.

Really? Up until recently, it was common practice for people to have journals and diaries. Now with the advent of blogs and computers, alot of that stuff can go into the internet, and exist virtually the way it was intended.

When I was at sea and in the desert, I kept a journal of sorts. I didnt have time to make an entry everyday, but I did when I could.

It can be said that history is rewritten by the war victors, and Im sure this was more popular before the advent of telephones, photographs, and the internet. Now it is harder to hide the events of the world. Think about Tiananmen Square. If cameras hadnt of caught the guy being smashed with a tank, China would have been more successful at hiding the results of that incident. Its all a matter of prospective.

Perhaps maybe you should find something different than settlers and journals to back your thoughts up.

how could every settler have a journal with them. were did they find them. How come we dont find their houses. The Revolutionary war. how come we were the worst army. we won it. Is any of history fake.

Who said every settler? Not everyone now keeps a journal, Im sure it was no different throughout history.

As far as the Revolution, with the help of the French, and the distance from Britain, a British victory would have been difficult. While we didnt have a navy to speak of, the French did. And the French often intercepted British convoys and sunk them, killing thousands of soldiers.

And whos houses are we trying to find? Some history might be falsly recorded, but there is no way it is all a fake.

Wow...some of you guys are really lacking in basic history and thought in this arena.
Some of you left out a concept very basic to the debate. How many people could even read and write.???? Think about it!!!
This is why you dont find many journals..among alot of peoples..many of them couldnt even read and write. Furthermore writing materials were rare and expensive. What stories survive are the stuff of legends and folk tales...told over and over. It was mostly royalty in ancient times who could read and write.
I dont know how many of you have ever read books over a hundred years olde in English..but it has dawned on me that of those people who could read and write ..their vocabulary and literary style is far in advance of what passes for excellence in this field today. I am told by olde timers that on the average most peoples today have a vocabulary of 800 to 1200 words..and most of them four letter words. In times over a hundred years ago..those educated had a average vocabulary of 3500 to 4500 words and they knew what they meant. Today most of us dont know the meaings of the words we use..often even the four letter ones.
Surviving journals of peoples in ancient times..or even three or four hundred years ago are very valuable finds as it is one way of rounding out our understanding of the basic daily lives of peoples in certain regions.
The oldest one which comes to mind...though I am sure there are others is the journal surviving of a Arab traveler who was sent on a mission to the stepps or Russia or somewhere in the Eastern part of what is today Europe. This Arab tells of the crudity and barbarianism of the peoples whom he encountered...and many of them Vikings. The story from a archeological standpoint is where he logs in his journal a fort where he stayed near a river and he paces the distance off...between outposts in this fort. Archeologists it seems have found the fortress...and the paces loged in his journal seem to be roughly accurate betewen thier outposts. So this gives some credibility to the journal though to the reader with current biases...some of the accounts in the journal are just incredible.
This journal was made into a movie recently and I think the title of the current movie is "The Thirteenth Warrior". It is based on this journal though I am sure that hollywood has taken its usual license with the history.
Nevertheless ...one of the reason there is such a scarcity of written informations about these olden times is that so many peoples simply could not read and write or even have the materials to do so. Something to consider when thinking about ancient or olden times.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by gothica91
I dont believe that what we learn in history is real. Like how all these setterlers keep journals of their travel. I dont really believe that. what do you guys think. Any other topics to talk about this.

As others have stated here on the site; journal keeping was not uncommon.
As for history, like the Kremlin did during the cold war, the US government constantly re-writes history to suite itself.

Try to find in today's history books,the fact that the founding fathers prayed in congress for example!
Or that this nation's government was founded on Christianity.


Banjo

Bravo,

No argument with your position Banjo Guru.

Thanks,
Orangetom

While I'm thinking about it ..try this one out for size..concerning history and the deletion of certain parts of history from our books.

In English History .the English suffered a horrible Civil war in the 1640s between the King Charles the 1st and a coalition of Englishmen consisting of Presbyterians , Puritans and others. You will not find much about this in your history books. In the end ..Lead by puritans like Oliver Cromwell the king was found guilty of treason and executed by beheading. For about ten years the English knew a sense of peace and prosperity in England that had not been seen among the people. Court cases ..long outstanding were being settled in a orderly manner etc etc..etc . The nation was basically following Christian principles.
There were some brief problems in Scotland and Ireland which were settled finally .
However...after Oliver Cromwell died and the restoration of the Kings took place the olde system returned with a vengence. The other thing of note not found in many history books also is that the English discoverd Gin.
The nation quickly went on a huge drunk. By the early 1700s the nation was basically abandoning its Christian roots and gone into a huge national drunk to the point where one or two buisnesses out of five were selling alcoholic beverages.Parliment was passing bills promoting bigamy and all types of non christian ethics...sound familiar? As some politicians were to delare....."why worry about the common man ...in a few years there wont be a common man about which to concern ones self.

My point is that this too is a piece of history concerning which the founding fathers were well familiar. Yet ironically it is totally left out of most history books today...at any level of education. This is one ofthe reasons they understood the Christian perspective...not the "World" perspective.

Thanks,
Orangetom

It's true that a lot of people in the earlier times were illiterate, which is why many of the first person records that we have now are from the people in positions of wealth or power. In a way, this obviously gives off a skewed impression of the time period, but I think there are enough observations of life in general in those records that allow for some semblance at a well-rounded understanding of a civilization.

As for the deletion of parts of history from books - perhaps it's naive of me to say this (I know that I have a really optimistic point of view on history, which is wrong at times), but I wouldn't attribute stories like the British being drunkards or members of Congress praying "disappearing" from history textbooks to a human decision to erase these parts of history from the collective consciousness. (Actually I'm pretty sure that Congress still has prayers now, though I could be wrong.) The fact is, that in a micro scheme, every person to have ever lived, every miniscule event that has ever happened, every word that has ever been said matters. A history book can't record all of them, regardless of the fact that the record of human existence is basically a circumstance following a set of previous circumstances, ad infinitum.

I often feel frustrated at history textbooks mainly because they refuse to acknowledge the above fact. A lot of them give off the impression that the "major" events are the only important ones. They go through decades in a paragraph, which is incredibly disappointing. I understand that they can't cover everything, but I think what they should do is acknowledge the incredible scope of history and encourage people to seek out more about it.

Well said Ester..Well said.

I for one ..like to read peoples journals..not just famous people but ordinary folks caught up in daily life. It gives one a personal glimpse into their daily lives and concerns..not just the politically authorized version of what passes for education now days.

I have enjoyed reading some of the books coming out recently with letters of servicemen back home and the replys of thier familys for this more personal glimpse.

Some historical fiction can have intresting facts in it though you must be careful about some of it. Reading James Clavels books on the orient ..I first came into knowlege that in the 16 ,17,and 1800s a captains log was highly classified information and was locked up in the main offices of a trading company immediately upon return so that it did not fall into the hands of competitors. This is a detail one would not ordinarily glean ..from the standard educational format.

And yes...Ester..Congress still prays and they have a full time paid Chaplin. Ironic isnt it??? What they foist upon the public...but do themselves. Is this a dual system in operation..is this feudalism...a system for the outsiders and system for the insiders...Feudalism?? Find this concept in a public school book.

Great post Ester.
Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by ester
....., but I wouldn't attribute stories like the British being drunkards or members of Congress praying "disappearing" from history textbooks to a human decision to erase these parts of history from the collective consciousness. (Actually I'm pretty sure that Congress still has prayers now, though I could be wrong.) ...

I understand your point, it was really only meant as a small example, the fact actually is that they are doing their best to erase, not only these minor facts, but any flavor whatsoever of Christianity from the record. All this (supposedly) in the name of 'separation of church and state' which Jefferson never really advocated (that's a topic all to itself) . So overlook my simplistic ramblings and see that the overall picture of censorship is there.
Banjo Guru