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U.S. says Serbs still in denial over war crimes

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posted on May, 16 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by paperclip
then we can all sing "Od Vardara pa do Triglava..." for old times sake

Is that a beer drinking song???


Guys, keep the discussion civil and rational. The topic of the thread is the Serbian Denial of any Ethnic Cleansing. If you are a srb, and you think it didn't happen, then discuss why, if you are a croat (and a skydiver) then try to explain why the serbs might not be able to deal with the fact that they commited genocide. Just a reminder to play nice. I already have one person on Global Ignore here because they've advocated a resumption of this genocide 'which didn't happen'.




posted on May, 17 2005 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by paperclip
then we can all sing "Od Vardara pa do Triglava..." for old times sake

Is that a beer drinking song???


No thats not a beer drinking song - well it can be!


Its the Unofficial Hymn of Yugoslavia, that EVERYBODY togather liked to sing, once upon a time here in Balkans:

Od Vardara pa to Triglava: From Vardar to Triglav - from the most Northern point, mountain Triglav (highest mountain in Slovenia), to the most Southern point, the river Vardar in Macedonia.

Od Đedrapa pa do Jadrana: From Djedrap to Adriatic Sea - from river Danube on the far Eastern point (Djerdap is this really big Hydro plant on Danube river) to Adriatic Sea, the far Western point.

The Song is called JUGOSLAVIJO.

We learned this song in primary School.

I always liked it - it brought all the people of former Yugoslavia togather, Uniting them in One Song. Really nice. So its like Nostalgic for Us - members of Former Yugoslav Republics and Nations - to Sing that Song again, Togather, United.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 02:53 PM
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Listen closely every1. The Croats did not do anything during the 90's. This is a fact. We were the ones being shot on the street and the ones being forced into those detention camps. Our churches were bombed, our diners were bombed, our homes were bombed, snipers would shoot little kids in the head. We had barely any weapons to fight back. Anything we had was basically stolen from the cetniks.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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I will never sing a jugoslavija song! Not after all the suffering we had to go through. Ever.

And dont ever believe a website about us. Most of them are done by serbs and thier propoganda. Hell one search on google of Vukovar I saw a website that showed pictures of murdered Croatians and next to it I saw serb.


The only good website ive found is this one
www.hic.hr...
Its not done by a croatian so dont start saying it was.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by Croat56
Listen closely every1. The Croats did not do anything during the 90's. This is a fact.



All sides commited atrocities. Want an example of Croatians doing something? How about attacking French peacekeepers in 1993?

www.cda-cdai.ca...


Croatian and Serb troops routinely exchanged small arms, mortar and artillery fire all over the area. This steady exhange of fire was punctuated over 1993 by several major Croatian offensives, including Operation Maslencia in January. It was during that mission that French troops withdrew when faced with heavy Croatian fire, leaving Serbs in the UNPA to be ethnically cleansed.


And look, they even attacked my countrymen. It was beyond a paramilitary encounter- this was a direct, ordered assault by regular Croatian forces. It was a deliberate attempt to ethnically cleanse Serbs, and the PPCLI got in the way.


General Cot anticipated that in practice, Croatian troops would be reluctant to withdraw from their hard won gains. This is why he chose the well armed and highly effective CANBAT 1 to implement the agreement and restore a UN presence in Sector South. Cot expected trouble and he was determined not to be the one to back down when it came. General Cot'ss assessment was more than born out when the Croatian 9th ALika Wolves@ Guards Brigade commenced its assault on the Medak salient on 9 September, just as the lead Canadian platoon was moving into the village of Medak.

The renewed outburst of heavy fighting meant a significant alteration of the Canadian plan. The lead platoons immediately commenced construction of fortifications to protect against the shelling. At every lull in the barrage, the Patricia's worked at sandbagging and revetting their position. Over 500 heavy shells fell in an area the size of Parliament Hill around Lieutenant Tyrone Green's 9 Platoon from Charlie Company.


After Serb reinforcements helped take pressure off, there were attempts made to enforce a no-man's-land between Serbs and Croatians. This is what occured one week later:


The solution to this problem seemed obvious. Get the white painted armoured vehicles out in the open where there would be no mistake that it was UNPROFOR advancing, rather than a Serb counter-attack..

Large blue UN flags were fixed to radio antenna and the carriers driven out of a tree line into the open. This brought a storm of return fire, including heavy machine gun, rocket propelled grenades and 20mm anti-aircraft gunfire. It was now obvious that the Croatians had no intention of letting the Canadians advance. All along the Charlie and FREBAT 1 Company front, the blue helmets halted in whatever defensive positions they could find. For the next 15 hours, the Croatians shot it out with Canadian and French troops.


As you can see, this was FAR from an isolated incident. In fact, this was a deliberate attempt to allow Croatian special police to finish ethnically cleansing Muslims and Serbs.


The Patricia=s rose to an horrifying site on the morning of 16 September. Smoke was rising up from several villages behind Croatian lines. Explosions and an occasional burst of automatic rifle fire could also be heard. It suddenly became clear why the Croatians resisted the Canadian advance. The villages were inhabited predominantly by Serbs and Croatian Special Police had not yet finished ethnically cleansing them.

Colonel Calvin clamoured for action and immediately recalled Colonel Maisonneuve to meet again with General Ademi. Unfortunately, with only four widely separated companies and no supporting tanks or artillery, Calvin=s force had no chance in a frontal attack against the entire Croatian 9th Brigade which did have tanks and heavy guns. There was little the Canadians could do but sit back wait for the 1200 hrs timing. As they waited they listened helplessly to the explosions and shooting and imagined what was happening to the Serb civilians to their front.


No, Croat56. The facts and history are decidedly against every faction in this war. The fact the serbs took the worst of international pressures just means they weren't as good at hiding the evidence.


For the soldiers involved in the Medak Pocket operation the next few days were the most difficult They were tasked, along with civilian police officers, and UN medical officers, to sweep the area for signs of ethnic cleansing. There task was enormous. Each and every building in the Medak Pocket had been levelled to the ground. Truck loads of firewood had been brought to start intense fires among the wooden buildings. Brick and concrete buildings were blow apart with explosives and anti-tank mines.

Only 16 Serb bodies were found, all in hidden locations while in the open, the ground was littered with rubber surgical gloves. Calvin and his men believe the gloves indicate that most Serb bodies in the open had been transported elsewhere and only the ones hidden in basements or in the woods had been left behind in haste. The bodies that were recovered included those of two young ladies found in a basement. They had apparently been tied up, shot and then doused with gasoline and burned. When found, the bodies were still hot enough to melt plastic body bags. At another location, an elderly Serb woman had been found shot four times in the head, execution style.

The Croatians completed their task by killing most of the livestock in the area. That was the small-arms firing heard on 16 September. In addition, oil or dead animals were dumped into wells to make them unusable for Serbs entertaining any thought of return. These are the objectives of Balkan warfare. Rather than destroy the opponent=s military forces in combat, armies in the Former Yugoslavia seek to make the land of opposing civilians unhabitable.


I've given you a link from a third party, with little to no bias. I stand by my statement that EVERYONE was involved. Everyone committed atrocities. The fact that you DENY the facts just shows how ignorant of the truth you are. You are only interested in your version, nothing more.

DE



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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There is simply no evidence that suggests that Serbia's policy was genocidal. Totally the opposite. 150,000 dead over a decade of fighting. The numbers don't add up. 100,000+ dead in Iraq in less than 18 months...

Some of the muslim posters here like Souljah can use words like "genocide" but the simple fact is that Serbia was sending Albanian Muslims back to Albania. They weren't sending them to concentration camps. Kosovo & Metohija was 90% Serb and therefore 90% Christian before World War 2. Now it's 95% Islamic.

What happened in the last 60 years ? Reverse genocide ?

Clinton/Genscher/Albright will end up in prison if there is a God.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:30 PM
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Here are some more articles.....ETHNIC CLEANSING.....

Quote////////First to Recognize Croatia

Pope John Paul II was the first to recognize Croatian independence on January 13, 1992, two days before even Germany. This reckless and provocative diplomatic action resulted in a civil war that killed thousands of Serbs and Croats.
////////////I dont know how to put the pic here....//////What a Real Genocide Looks Like: Ustasha troops carry the decapitated head of a Serbian Orthodox priest on February 7, 1942 in Drakulic near Banja Luka in Bosnia. The Ustasha twisted the lips and moth into a grin.

his premature and irresponsible recognition was what lead to the carnage, killing, displacement, and suffering in the former Yugoslavia.
To be sure the dismemberment of Yugoslavia had been pre-determined at Maastricht. Germany was determined to recognize Croatian independence unilaterally and unconditionally.
Croatia had been a key Nazi German ally in the Balkans during World War II. Croatia had been one of the most fanatical Nazi allies of Germany, participating in Operation Barbarossa, the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Croatia had sent an infantry regiment to Stalingrad made up of Croats and Bosnian Muslims, another regiment to the Don, a naval contingent to the Sea of Azov, and an air force contingent to Sevastopol.
German Chancellor Helmut Kohl was determined to reward Croatia with unilateral independence. Germany presented a diplomatic fait accompli.

But what the pundits miss here is that the Vatican was even more reckless than the resurgent Germany.
No, the Vatican did not have any divisions, as Joseph Stalin once famously noted, but the Vatican did have moral authority. When the Vatican presented a fait accompli on Croatian secession and independence, the Vatican gave moral sanction to the Franjo Tudjman regime.

more....
www.serbianna.com...



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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Genocide is simply the attempt at the destruction of an ethnicity in an area. Rounding up kosovars and executing them en mass, at the direction of the central governement, as part of a policy of getting rid of them one way or another, fits the bill of genocide. Its preposterous to claim that the serbs are innocent, but Clinton is guilty of a crime.

The balkans are a place where the diffferent ethnicities have been slaughtering each other for generations. When the muslims came into the penninsula, they had to kill lots of people. Then the natives had to respond. Then other foreigners moved in, then there was more killing. There was killing on both sides in wwi and wwii and actions against the AH Empire in related areas. Now most recently the muslims moved in large numbers into serbia, and the serbs, sick of them, forced them out and started mass executions. In 50 years, it might be the reverse. In a hundred years, hungarians might flood serbia and start a new cycle. In a thousand years, Tartars from the Crimea might move in with their flying motorcycle-jets, and the native Serbic Kosavarian Dalmatians might have to rally against the Intruders.

Same story, different scenery. Either way, you have an attempt by one people to destroy another.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by helen670
Here are some more articles.....ETHNIC CLEANSING.....


Back to the topic of this thread, the only thing your article had to say about their own ethnic cleansing not to long ago, was this: 'Eldery Kosovo Serb who had his ear cut off in attack by Albanians in Kosovo. Reuters called this genocidal, ethnically-motivated attack as a "beating".'

It seems the serbs are calling the Albanians the genocidal bunch. Did you happen to see what the name of the site you were on was? Serbianna perhaps.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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Im sorry



Not good with current events........in time we shall know the truth

again, sorry
helen



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
It seems the serbs are calling the Albanians the genocidal bunch. Did you happen to see what the name of the site you were on was? Serbianna perhaps.

I agree - this site is very one sided.

Lets check some hottest news:

- Kosovo Albanians to build Nazi monument

- Bosnia & the Islamic Jihad In Europe

- Al Qaeda in Kosovo

- Destruction of Christians in Kosovo

- Albania's Strela Missiles for New Macedonian Conflict


Great source for some Pro-Serbian Propaganda.

Ofcourse no word about the title of the topic....



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 01:27 PM
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DeusEx,
I am not denying attrocities commited by croats in Bosnia. No. They have commited them. They stabbed bosnian goverment in the back in central and south Bosnia. By doing that, they sentenced 1000s of croats, their own people, in Tuzla, Sarajevo, Zenica, to the same fate as Muslims: gigantic detention camps with no way out and constant daily bombings by serbian army.
Sorry Croat56, but croats have commited some pretty ugly crimes in Bosnia.
When it comes to bosnian side, legaly elected bosnian goverment, there were isolated incidents, we already admitted that, but no systematic mass murder of large serbian population in goverment controlled part.

A few months into the war we have already lost all control over our borders, we could not control who is coming into our country. It was difficult to organise anything if you have absolutely no contact whatsoever with outside world, you are a very young state, no infrastructure, people are dying by the thousands every day, you have no way of getting anything, food, medicine, across the country, police is in total chaos.
Several groups, mostly led by foreign fighters who somehow found their way into Bosnia, have totaly slipped our control. They are the ones who commited isolated atrocities. They have been arested and put on trial. A lot of them were deported back to their home countries. Our own goverment considers them a risk to the stability and security of the country. We couldn't deport all of them because some have found the way to stay in Bosnia mostly through marriages with bosnian women.
You cannot imagine the chaos of war if you haven't lived through it. Trust me.

There was also a situation in Bihac, a city in northwest Bosnia. A guy called Fikret Abdic, a muslim, tried to fight everyone there, including bosnian forces. Another dark event of the war.

But in all that mess only one side has commited GENOCIDE in Bosnia and thats extremist Serbs.
A genocide planed, organised and executed by official serbian goverment, serbian army and representatives of bosnian serbs.
There is no way around that one. They did it.
A systematic mass slaughter of over 200,000 people in period between 1992 and 1995. Concentration camps, rape camps, mass graves, daily bombing of cities under goverment control, daily massacres on the streets, schools, market places, a slaughter of 8,000 people in Srebrenica directly comanded by serbian general Ratko Mladic.

Only one side can "show off" such record, and that side are extremist serbs.
That is a fact.
And that is something they do not want to admit. It equals to nazis not wanting to admit they had any part in Holocaust. They did. They simply did. It is a fact.

I recommend a book called Love Thy Neighbor by Peter Maass to fuly grasp the magnitude of genocide and torture muslims went through during the war.
I could tell you the stories of my own but you might think I am biased.


I have never said that I want serbian blood or something. NO. Note that I always use the term "extremist serbs" because that is exactly who they are. Tens of thousands of serbs remained in my home town Tuzla when the war started, many fought on the side of bosnian army, they lived through the same horror we did. They were not harmed by muslims, they were not rouded up and killed, they were not buried in mass graves.
I do not want their heads or blood or to punish them for something they didn't do.
What I said was that Serbian goverment should admit the role of Milosevic's administration in GENOCIDE in Bosnia.

Representatives of serbs in Bosnia have to some extent already admitted the role of extremist serbs in genocide. Since the new goverment was formed after Dayton peace agreement there was quite a lot of progress. Some serbs have admited to commiting genocide and in exchange for mild punishments they showed us where the mass graves are, so we can identify our dead.

The serbian goverment however, refuses to admit anything, although there is CLEAR evidence of their involvment in genocide. The serbian people are totaly ignoring the subject, some even act as if Karadzic and Mladic were heroes. That has to stop.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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As a fellow Croatian, I have to post my 2cents worth......


The Serbs committed atrocities. The Croatians committed atrocities. The Serbs wanted the Croatians out of Bosnia; the Croatians wanted the Serbs out of Bosnia.

Remember; Slovenia was the first state to secede. The had a very limited engagement against the Serb(Yugoslav) army. When Croatia declared independence, that is when the bloodshed started.

Why?

Because Croatia was the economic backbone of Yugoslavia. Plain and simple. There is nothing in Slovenia really worth fighting a war over. That's why that conflict ended in a matter of days. Croatia, on the other hand, was the center of tourism and industry in the former Yugoslavia.

Germany, one of the first countries to recognize Croatia as an independent state, also sent military aid the our brothers in Croatia. Germany and Croatia are historical allies, and I thank Germany for doing so.

Bosnia, though historically a part of Croatia, also siezed the chance at independence. The Serbs and Croatians wanted Bosnia for themselves, in a proverbial landgrab. That's all there was to it.

On the other hand, what the Serb's were doing in Kosovo was right. Kosovo is a part of Serbia, and they should defend it.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq


Bosnia, though historically a part of Croatia, also siezed the chance at independence.


Uhmmm, we were not historicaly a part of Croatia. Where did you get that?


" The State of Bosnia first appeared in the Xth Century. At that time Bosnia extended from the Drina river to the Adriatic sea. The socio-legal position of Bosnia in the Medieval period was challenged by Byzantium, Hungary and the neighboring states of Croatia and Serbia who tried to take Bosnian territory to expand Catholicism and Christian Orthodoxy. During the reign of Kulin Ban (1180-1204), Bosnia was developing as an independent and internationally recognized country"

Following that, the Kingdom of Bosnia was established, then came the turks and occupied us. After we finaly got rid of them, Austria occupied us. Bummer.
When they left the serbs and croats started the grab and croats won, so we got owned by Croatia then, that being the only period in history, a short one if I may add, that we were actually a part of Croatia.

Finaly, we made a move towards ending this and becoming an independent state again during WWII, but then Churchil&Co gave Tito Yugoslavia and there goes our independence again.

Man, we have had a lot of bad luck throughout history.

Oh yeah, before we were muslims, there was a kind of a christian sect there, Bogumili, much hated by both catholics and orthodox christians.
When the turks came, we converted to Islam, only to be even more hated by those two.

Read more at:

www.tfeagle.army.mil...



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 03:40 PM
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I repeat once more SERBIA SENT ILLEGAL MUSLIM ALBANIANS BACK TO ISLAMIC ALBANIA NOT TO A FRICKEN CONCENTRATION CAMP FOR EXTERMINATION !!!

Most Serbs are looking forward to White Stripes, Garbage, Fatboy Slim, Underwold etc playing at this summer's exitfest.org and EU membership and setting up their own business and buying that first house... despite all the sh*t they've been through.

Serbia is parliamentary democracy, even Milosevic was a democratically elected leader (New York banker for many years) in the flawed parliament of the 90s. Serbia was never behind the Iron Curtain or in the Warsaw Pact.

Interestingly, this w/e Pavarotti is performing in Belgrade the city he started his career in... Those Serbs...



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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Actually Bosnia is historically croatian. Ever hear of King Tvrtko, or Zvonimir?



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by blablablaxyz
I repeat once more SERBIA SENT ILLEGAL MUSLIM ALBANIANS BACK TO ISLAMIC ALBANIA NOT TO A FRICKEN CONCENTRATION CAMP FOR EXTERMINATION !!!



/agree. No one is argueing with you there.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by Croat56
Actually Bosnia is historically croatian. Ever hear of King Tvrtko, or Zvonimir?


They are BOSNIAN kings.


Bosnian is not only muslim. Bosnian is a citizen of Bosnia, he can be of any religion.

As I said in my post, before Islam found its way to Bosnia, the people there were either catholics, orthodox christians or bogumili.

I think that only recently, 18th or 19th century, someone decided to use the term "croats" for all catholic bosnians in order to divide the people of Bosnia.
Most "croats" in Bosnia are NOT actually croats, their families have lived for centuries in Bosnia and have never even been to Croatia. To call them "croats" is absurd.
Same goes for bosnian "serbs", they are not actually serbs, they are orthodox christian bosnians.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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Bosnia an artificial state ? Croatia an artificial state ?

No way ?

You learn something new every day, I guess...

Talking of Royal Families there's one that that is related by blood with the British Royals and that's the Serbian Royal Family



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 04:38 PM
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blablablaxyz, you keep mentioning Kosovo and situation there.

What is your view on genocide in Bosnia?
Do you think that extremist serbs had anything to do with it?

The article posted in the first post of this thread states:

"Moore said less than half of Serbia's population believed that 7,000 Muslim men and boys were massacred in Srebrenica in 1995 by the forces of Bosnian Serb Army commander Ratko Mladic, despite the testimony of witnesses, graves found and even the admission of Bosnian Serbs."


Do you think it happened or do you deny that it ever took place?



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