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U.S. says Serbs still in denial over war crimes

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posted on May, 15 2005 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by Hajduk
Hey Croat56, I have a question.
[edit on 15-5-2005 by Hajduk]


Well the ustasa did some bad things but it was during WW2. Bad things were happenin everywhere evan in america. Anything bad they did was greatly exaggerated by the communists and the allies to justify the # that happened after ww2. Thats why 300 thousand croats were sent to Bleighburg and executed right after ww2.




posted on May, 15 2005 @ 10:31 PM
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As much fun as this anti-serb hate in is, I feel the need to point out that Croats and Muslims are not quite the martyrs they portray themselves to be. Yes, they took the brunt of the casualties.

Remember our old friends, the HOS?

Look up Gornji Vakuf. Look up the Muhajadeen who came in-country.

Yes, the Serbs need to admit to their war crimes, to accept the fact they were wrong...just like the Croats and Muslims need to realize that they commited atrocities too.

AT the end of that war, no one was in the right.

DE



posted on May, 15 2005 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by Croat56

Originally posted by nukunuku
and lets not forget why Croatia wasnt invited to EU yet....can you say Gotovina?
Hero to some, murderer to others.


Murderer? Defending your home is murder? God forbid I should shoot a robber coming into my house! Screw the EU we dont need them anyway.


You have voted Croat56 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



posted on May, 15 2005 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
As much fun as this anti-serb hate in is, I feel the need to point out that Croats and Muslims are not quite the martyrs they portray themselves to be. Yes, they took the brunt of the casualties.

Remember our old friends, the HOS?

Look up Gornji Vakuf. Look up the Muhajadeen who came in-country.

Yes, the Serbs need to admit to their war crimes, to accept the fact they were wrong...just like the Croats and Muslims need to realize that they commited atrocities too.


That's true.
I've posted pictures and links of this before.
(these are from Bosnia though)


Here's one site with some graphic pictures (**Very graphic**)
www.srpska-mreza.com...



posted on May, 15 2005 @ 11:03 PM
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WTF I have never seen a bosnian muslim wearing any of those. And that is a bull# website. The ustasa were not nazis there were different things with different goals. All the ustasa wants is all of Croatian to be returned to Croatia. Ive seen plenty of those bull# websites. Ive seen websites where they showed pictures of dead croats and put the word serb next to them. BULL#



posted on May, 15 2005 @ 11:34 PM
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Croat, you're right. They weren't Nazis. They were collaborators...so Nazis in thought and action only.


The Ustaše (often spelled Ustashe in English; singular Ustaša or Ustasha) was a Croatian far-right organisation put in charge of the Independent State of Croatia by the Axis Powers in 1941. They pursued nazi/fascist policies and were subsequently expelled by the communist Yugoslav partisans and the Red Army in 1945...



Vladko Maček called on people to obey and cooperate with the new government the same day. Ante Pavelić arrived on April 20th to become the head of government, poglavnik (führer), of the state that would soon encompass most of today's Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and parts of Serbia (Srem and Sandžak regions). Because the Ustaše did not have a capable army or administration necessary to control the territory, the Germans and the Italians split up the NDH into two zones of influence, one in the southwest controlled by the Italians and the other in the northeast controlled by the Germans...

The Ustaša gangs ravaged villages across the Dinaric Alps to the extent that the Italians and the Germans started expressing their horror.


Wikipedia

Diet Nazis. The HoS are their direct decendants. And you know that if Nazis started expressing horror as to the nature of your ravaging, there's an issue.

And Croat, that Muhajadeen photo IS real. It's a parade. Just like you don't see Marines go into combat in their dress whites, you won't see too many Muslims dress like that anywhere.

DE

[edit on 15-5-2005 by DeusEx]



posted on May, 15 2005 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by Croat56
WTF I have never seen a bosnian muslim wearing any of those. And that is a bull# website. The ustasa were not nazis there were different things with different goals. All the ustasa wants is all of Croatian to be returned to Croatia. Ive seen plenty of those bull# websites. Ive seen websites where they showed pictures of dead croats and put the word serb next to them. BULL#


If you don't like that website, here's another one, with sources to back up what they're saying.

**Graphic Content on website**


7th Bosnian Muslim Brigade, based in Zenica

Mujahedin, or «holy warriors», is a generic term for Muslim volunteers fighting in the former Yugoslavia. Many Mujahedin originate from Muslim countries outside the former Yugoslavia. It was reported that the Mujahedin began arriving in BiH as early as June 1992. (Tom Post & Joel Brand, «Help from the Holy Warriors», Newsweek, 5 October 1992, at 52). Reports on the number of Mujahedin forces operating in BiH vary, but it is unlikely that the Mujahedin forces have made a significant military contribution to the BiH Government's war effort (Christopher Lockwood, «Muslim Nations Offer Troops», Daily Telegraph, 14 July 1993, at 14. According to Lockwood, Muslim nations depended on Western logistical support to deliver troops to BiH. He concludes that the same logistical troubles which kept the Muslim troops promised in July of 1993 from joining UN forces in the UN declared «safe havens» also limited the number of Muslim volunteers in the BiH armed forces. He states that the number of Mujahedin in BiH never exceeded three or four hundred. See also Mohamed Sid-Ahmad, «Muslim World Between Two Fires», War Report, January 1993, IHRLI Doc. No. 63744. However, the Belgrade Daily, Vecernje Novosti, reported that as many as 30,000 Mujahedin were operating in BiH. «Other Reports in Brief: Muslims from Abroad Settling in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Belgrade Daily Claims», BBC, Summary of World Broadcasts, 19 September 1992. )

The Mujahedin forces came from several Muslim states and many of them were veterans of the Afghan war. (Andrew Hogg, «Arabs Join in Bosnia Battle», Sunday Times, 30 August 1992)


BTW, I find it ironic that you started this thread to fault the Serbs for denying what happened and yet you seem to be doing the very same thing when the Croation past is brought up.

[edit on 15-5-2005 by AceOfBase]



posted on May, 15 2005 @ 11:40 PM
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You know what Deus, that really does piss me off. Relatives off mine in Croatia were killed by Nazis. My great-grandfather's fortune and estate were taken by Nazis. We're still trying to reclaim his possessions from the Croatian government.

So to say my family and many other Croatians were Nazis is false. While your article makes it clear that this was an organization in collaboration with the nazis, I don't think you understand that many Croatians were opposed to the Nazi campaign.

Hell, even when Croatia was communist under the Yugoslav flag, there was a great feeling of dissent in the country.

I don't agree that all Serbs are war criminals, but what I know is that their government has commited gross atrocities most recently. In fact, my mom, a native Croatian worked with the UN to curb their campaign.

Do some more research Deus, your post is insulting.



posted on May, 15 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
Croat, you're right. They weren't Nazis. They were collaborators...so Nazis in thought and action only.



The Ustasa didn't start off for that purpose. It was more a reaction to the forces they were fighting against. Given the brutality of pro-Stalinist factions of the time, it forced an equally radical reaction. We know now that Stalinists in Europe killed arguably more people than the Nazis, so it's not surprising that anti-Stalinist regimes like Ustasa chose to ally themselves with other nations looking to curb Stalinism. They were seriously between a rock and a hard place. Sort of a damned if you do, and damned if you don't scenerio.



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
So to say my family and many other Croatians were Nazis is false. While your article makes it clear that this was an organization in collaboration with the nazis, I don't think you understand that many Croatians were opposed to the Nazi campaign.

I don't agree that all Serbs are war criminals, but what I know is that their government has commited gross atrocities most recently.

Do some more research Deus, your post is insulting.


1. At no time did I ever say that your family, nor all Croatians were Nazis. I perfectly understand the fact that that many were opposed. However, if you check the facts, the Ustaše were extremely active, both as collaborators in WW2 and in recent conflicts as butchers. The HoS and organizations like them exist and continue to commit atrocities- Croatia is by no means guilt free.

2. The Serbs, Muslim, and Croat leaders ALL committed gross atrocities recently. Singling the serbs out is by no means helping an objective look at the situation. In fact, most Croats seem to be ignoring organizations like the HoS and Ustaše. The serbs aren't the only ones turning a blind eye.

3. My research is fine, backed with both my linsk and AceofBase's. It may be insulting, but all three parties share responsibility. Everyone's at fault, whether you want to admit it or not.

DE



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by Croat56

Originally posted by Hajduk
Hey Croat56, I have a question.
[edit on 15-5-2005 by Hajduk]


Well the ustasa did some bad things but it was during WW2. Bad things were happenin everywhere evan in america. Anything bad they did was greatly exaggerated by the communists and the allies to justify the # that happened after ww2. Thats why 300 thousand croats were sent to Bleighburg and executed right after ww2.



It was not exagerated, Jasenovac was a slaughterhouse, ask any holocaust researcher.

Concerning the mujahedeens in Bosnia, they came to fight a from Saudi Arabia and under some pretty stinky deals made with Bosnian government. But, when you are getting killed by tens of thousands and EU and USA just watch, was there really any other solution? EU wouldnt even let Bosnians arm themselves to fight! Nooo, well protect you, and then they just let Srebrenica happen.



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 02:37 AM
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Deus, that's all I wanted to hear because, because your original statement seemed to lump Croatia in with Nazi Germany. This is not the case, many have died in opposition to the Nazi party and their collaborators.



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by DeusEx

2. The Serbs, Muslim, and Croat leaders ALL committed gross atrocities recently. Singling the serbs out is by no means helping an objective look at the situation. In fact, most Croats seem to be ignoring organizations like the HoS and Ustaše. The serbs aren't the only ones turning a blind eye.

3. My research is fine, backed with both my linsk and AceofBase's. It may be insulting, but all three parties share responsibility. Everyone's at fault, whether you want to admit it or not.

DE


Equal guilt?? are you freakin kidding me??!

Try telling the survivor of holocaust that all sides are equaly guilty there, not just the nazis... man... please dont single out the poor germans, jews are guilty too. We have to be objective after all....


Serbs killed over 250,000 people in Bosnia. ENTIRE CITIES have been completely cleansed of muslim population, victims of slaughter buried in mass graves, men put in concentration camps, women in rape camps.
Cities that remained under goverment control were completely surounded by serbian forces and turned into gigantic detention camps, no one was allowed in our out, people were slowly starved to death. Every single day serbs would bomb the city a bit, kill a few dozen people and leave the rest to wonder if it is their day to die tomorow. All that was planed, ordered, executed by SDS, serbian nationalist party, under the leadership of Radovan Karadzic and their military forces under the command of serbian general Ratko Mladic with help from official serbian goverment led by Milosevic, and several paramilitary troups led by people like Arkan, Seselj, etc. Official orders, by official representatives, not some rogue separatist small groups of people in isolated areas, hence the reason why it is MILOSEVIC who is sitting in hague, it is Karadzic and Mladic who are wanted by the Hague.
A systematic MASS MURDER of CILIVIANS in hundreds of cities, villages, towns, it was a GENOCIDE. Over 250,000 dead people.
There is a reason why EXTREMIST serbs are singled out, they have commited genocide, an insane MASS murder of all non-serbs.

All sides equal guilt my ass.



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 04:48 AM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
2. The Serbs, Muslim, and Croat leaders ALL committed gross atrocities recently. Singling the serbs out is by no means helping an objective look at the situation. In fact, most Croats seem to be ignoring organizations like the HoS and Ustaše. The serbs aren't the only ones turning a blind eye.

Answer yourself to these 3 questions:

How many Serb War Criminals are being held in Haag?

How many Croat War Criminals are being held in Haag?

How many Bosnian War Criminals are being held in Haag?

Check this list, any things might clear up for You:

Major War Criminals from Helsinki Human Rights Watch, International War Crimes Tribunal in The Haag


As far as Mujahedeen are concerned, here is an article, that will say alot about the Passive role of the UN and the USA in the Yugoslav Civil War, especially in the Bosnian Conflist zone.

Dutch court hears Srebrenica case



More than 7,000 men were killed by Bosnian Serb troops who overran the Muslim enclave during the Bosnian war.

Victims' relatives say Dutch UN peacekeepers in charge of protecting the area failed in their duty, and they are seeking compensation.

So - with ALL THE WORLD standing aside, watching these War Crimes being Commited, Somebody had to come and Help the Bosnian People to Defend themselves.

Even if that means help from Mujahedeen Fighters from Afganistan or Saudi Arabia.

They were the only ones to answer the cry for help by Bosnian people in that time, when they need it Most.


EDIT: You might also want to check this page:

International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavija

[edit on 16/5/05 by Souljah]



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by paperclip
There is a reason why EXTREMIST serbs are singled out, they have commited genocide, an insane MASS murder of all non-serbs.

All sides equal guilt my ass.


So let me get this straight- you're telling me that Croats didn't do their best to starve the citizens Gornji Vasuf to death?

You're telling me that only Serbs committed gross atrocities?

You're telling me that all Croats and Muslims had no bandit gangs, no extreme organizations?

You're telling me that HoS and the Ustasche sat on their hands the entire war?

Yes, the Serbs were the worst offenders. That doesn't mean everyone else was a saint.

DE



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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Listening to that serbian propoganda eh DeusEx.
Let me guess Bosnia is historically serbian right
. Fact is we are the victums. We were murdered. I could find dozens of pics if I wanted to, but I really dont want see them right now.


Now here is something a friend of mind sent me

The Independant State of Croatia (Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska)
was declared in Zagreb on Thursday, April 10, 1941 by Slavko
Kvaternik, Deputy Head of State, with Dr Ante Pavelic as its
head. At that time, Croatia exercised all the functions of
a sovereign state by maintaining law and order, effective
administrative control, instituting and maintaining courts
of justice and adopting or imposing laws regulating the
relations of the inhabitants of the territory to one another
and government. Countries such as Germany, Japan, Hungary,
Slovakia, Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, Spain, France, Finland,
Portugal,Nanking China, The Philippines and The Vatican
acknowledged,through formal declaration, the existence of Croatia.
As Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac said in 1946 : "The Croatian people
declared by plebiscite their own State of Croatia, and I
would be a blackguard if I did not feel the pulse of the
Croatian people who were slaves in the former Yugoslavia".

Croatia existed until 1945 when international communism
opened the gate for hegemonists and converted a peaceful
and freedom-loving Croatia into a bloody batleground.
Tito's Partizan's and Draza Mihajlovic's Chetniks tried to
eradicate the Croatian people by burning villages and massacring
thousands of innocent people. Croatians tried to fight back but
lost at the "battles" of the international conferences at Teheran
and Yalta. The Allies supported Tito and provided the Communists with
the power to form a government and the new Federal People's
Republic of Yugoslavia was established on November 29, 1945.

This artificial state did not last. True Croatians worldwide
continued their struggle for independance, culminating in the
establish of the modern Republic of Croatia on May 30, 1990.

Edit: The ustasa was originally started in the 1880s and is a hungarian word meaning uprising. Theyre goal was to gain independence after being controlled by different empires for 900 years.

[edit on 5/16/2005 by Croat56]



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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Evo zoreeeeee Evoooooo dana,
Evo Jure i Bobana!
Jure zove Boban vice,
Evo mene Poglavnice!!!



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 04:42 PM
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First off,Hellraiser, I take offense to what you said. What you serbs did in the bosnian war and the war in Kosova in 1998-1999 is comparable to what the nazis did during ww2. You killed thousands, raped women, and murdered children in both wars and you look at yourslves as the innocent victims?
And, the last time I checked, macedonia is also multiethnic, 20-30% Albanian, plus turks. Get your facts straight. And, Hellraiser needs to be banned from this site.

[edit on 16-5-2005 by fu1982]

[edit on 16-5-2005 by fu1982]

[edit on 16-5-2005 by fu1982]

[edit on 16-5-2005 by fu1982]



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx

Yes, the Serbs were the worst offenders. That doesn't mean everyone else was a saint.

DE


I don't think this statement is that unreasonable, but I do take some exception to it.

As a North American example, one could easily say that Native Americans committed terrible acts during colonization, but rarely would you hear someone say something like; "Both the colonialists and the natives are responsible for what happened". Clearly the one side was defending their home and fighting against genocide.

When defending someones home, I don't expect them to take the moral high ground. You do whatever you can to preserve your way of life. For example, if Canada was nuked, I wouldn't hold Canada to the standard of not using nuclear weapons any more. When facing genocide, you have to do anything to stop it.

Clearly, it was not Croatian or Bosnian forces who entered Serbia and tried to force them to stay under a brutal regime or steal their autonomy.

Terrible acts are usually handed out by all sides during war. Not even Canada is immune as evidenced in Somalia. (ie. The 5th Airborne Regiment)


[edit on 16-5-2005 by Hajduk]



posted on May, 16 2005 @ 07:56 PM
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Oh, I agree. But Croat56 and a few others are ignoring the facts in this case. The Croats and Muslims also commited atrocities, and also seem to be unwilling to admit than anything happened. Rationalize it all you want, everyone will have to come to terms with the past sooner or later.

What irks me is that while everyone is screaming for the blood of Serbs, they are deliberately turning a blind eye to things like the Box o' Heads that Ace posted.

Yes, this may have been a war of defence to begin with, but at the end it was an unmitigated slaughter being commited by all sides. People need to realize that EVERYONE needs to admit wrongdoing, get to the table, and start hammering out a way around their differences.

Simply stating that every Serb is a monster is a useless act that will get no one anyone. We don't want this to turn out like Palestine, do we?

DE



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