Give me some real numbers (etc range 300km), not something saying it has 3x better range than a subsonic cruise missle. For all you know the "subsonic cruise missle" might be a Zero on a Kamikaze dive.

Best cruise missle ever made? I doubt that, I believe the Tomahawk is better, it has a confirmed range of 1500km, can be launched from land or ships or submarines, and it plans more than 20 routes to a target and selects the best one.

Originally posted by chinawhite
stealth spy do you have any info if it was based on the russian Yakhont.. both have same range 300km and payload of 200kg


The supersonic P-800 Yakhont (Gem) is a ramjet version of P-80 Zubr [SS-N-7 Starbright].

outside apperence is very similar if not the same.




[edit on 14-5-2005 by chinawhite]

Yes yes.. it is the Yakhont fuselage and nose cone as both are air breathing ramjets.. No point building a new frame and intake structure just to give its its "own" identity.. its a working model of a ramjet so might as well use it..

I think it's highly unlikely Brahmos will have 900km range in near future. The ramjet supersonic misilles have their advantages and disadvantages and the weight and range is certainly one of the main disadvantages.
The misile with longest range (supersonic) is Shipwreck and it is so HUGE that it can be fired only from the specialized Oscar subarines and Kirov class cruisers. It's weight is over 7 tons and the length is more than 10 meters (compare it to 1.5 tons and 5.8 meters by Tomahawk) and it's able to achieve Mach 1.6-Mach2. But this huge misille has still "only" range of 550km, so I think Brahmos able to hit targets 900km away must weight at least over 10 tons - it will seriously limit it's deployment abilities.
And this huge misille will stil be inferior to Tomahawk range,price, accuracy and payload.
To the Brahmos vulnerability - I think when atacking ground targets the Brahmos is more vulnerable to AA defenses despite it's supersonic speed. Tomahawk flies the whole time close to the terrain, while Brahmos is very vulnerable during the middle flight phase when it flies quite high. The high speed has also another disadvantages - it produces a lot of heat so the misille would light like christmans tree on all IR sensors. And the aplication of RAM will also be quite difficult, because the RAM materials are very heat sensitive.
The only uses I see for Brahmos in land attack role are the rapid strike/CAS misions when time to reach target is critical.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
USA, UK to consider supersonic cruise missile
The USA, joined it hopes shortly by the UK, plans to begin a research and development programme to look at a new land-attack supersonic cruise missile that could help strike time-critical targets and ones buried underground.

The programme, an advanced concept technology demonstration being sponsored by the US Defense Threat Reduction Agency and the US Navy, will explore development of a cruise missile capable of carrying a 200 lb (90.7kg) payload at least 400nm and preferably 600nm.

The missile would have a speed of M3.5 with a goal of M4.5 and a circular error of probability accuracy of 3m.

Yes, but this is small supersonic air launched misille only against time-critical targets. Look at it warhead size, it will be only launched against terorists or similar targets.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by longbow]

Originally posted by longbow
I think it's highly unlikely Brahmos will have 900km range in near future. The ramjet supersonic misilles have their advantages and disadvantages and the weight and range is certainly one of the main disadvantages.

Im still trying to figure out the advantages of ramjet missiles as opposed to pure propellant based ones..
Is the shipwreck ramjet?

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Im still trying to figure out the advantages of ramjet missiles as opposed to pure propellant based ones..
Is the shipwreck ramjet?

Shipwreck is turbojet, the ramjet version would have even shorter range or higher weight. The main ramjet advantage is that it has better speed than jet engines and longer range/endurance than rocket engines.

one thing before discussion fighter goes supersonic when they pump extra fuel in engine this reduced the range and plane did not go supersonic than his range is longer.

my point is here that same thing happen with brahmos and other supersonic cruise missile.if they did not go supersonic than there range would be longer like tomhawks.

Originally posted by mirza2003
one thing before discussion fighter goes supersonic when they pump extra fuel in engine this reduced the range and plane did not go supersonic than his range is longer. my point is here that same thing happen with brahmos and other supersonic cruise missile.if they did not go supersonic than there range would be longer like tomhawks.

I think you mean afterburner and ramjet misilles does not use it.
Of course the some drag penalty is still there but it is not so big issue as by fighters, because misilles have much less drag.
Besides Brahmos is designed for high speeds it doesn't perform too well subsonic, ramjets essentially do not work at all below half the speed of sound, and ramjets are inefficient due to low compression ratios until the airspeed exceeds 600 mph (1000 km/h)..A wide flight envelope (range of flight conditions), such as both low to high speeds and low to high altitudes, can force significant design compromises, and they tend to work best at one designed speed and altitude.
That's one of the main reason why it MUST use rocket booster (to gain minimum speed). Tomahawk could (just teoretically ) start like plane from airfielld.

Ramjets cannot fly at subsonic speeds as the air insn't compressed enough in the engine. Ramjets are movng too fast to be able to fly nap of the earth evasion routes into hostile airspace, of which the Tomahahwk is able to do.
Also it is hard configuring the accurate land attack sensor packages( ie. SAR and IIIR ) to fit, due to the nature of the ramjet shock cone in the nose.

my point is here that brahmos has 300km range and it need very good fuel in his superesonic travel .

but in tomhawk case subsonic missile consume less fuel than brahmos becuse of subsonic speed and because of low consumption tomhawk range increase.

any body has knowlege about any supersonic cruise missile with longer range than brah.

Originally posted by mirza2003
my point is here that brahmos has 300km range and it need very good fuel in his superesonic travel .

but in tomhawk case subsonic missile consume less fuel than brahmos becuse of subsonic speed and because of low consumption tomhawk range increase.

any body has knowlege about any supersonic cruise missile with longer range than brah.

I know what you meant, but the facts stand - Brahmos will probably not have 900km range in near future without significant weight increasement.

As I already stated the longest range current supersonic missile is Shipwreck, I think, with 550-625km. But it weights much more than Brahmos.


[edit on 14-5-2005 by longbow]

The main reaon why there range is limited isn't so much the fuel it's that they aren't effective at longer ranges.
A range of 900km would mean the necessity of long range independent targetting systems, and a capability to update the missiles inflight for corrections from ship movement.
Also, don't forget the active radar on the missile only has a range of a few 10's of km due to the horizon in low level flight

This missile should be really referred to by its proper category, that is Anti-Ship Cruise Missile. It is completely useless for any type of land attack mission.

thats what I was talking about.. Indian investment and technical contribution to GLONASS.. that why we ain't using our own and thats why china is forced to develop beidou..

china is heavily involed in the Galileo like GPS program running by 2008. launching the sateiliites and making sateillites.

I see.. very interesting..
Did't know that..
can you give some links??
I would think the ESA and Arianne would be more tahn capable of setting up Galileo...

And whats even more odd is that the EU has a weapons ban on China and Us is kicking Israel in the butt for dealing with china..
Here you're telling me that the EU and China have a MAJOR combined civ/military project??

IT all sounds contradictory.. as i said.. links would be helpful..