Is it time to take up arms?

No - it's not time to take up arms against anyone, but it's always a good time to make sure you have them available, so you can take them up if that day ever comes.

If they weren’t afraid of guns they wouldn’t be thinking of ways to take them away & make them illegal to the majority of the population.

Those of you who doubt the effectiveness of a second amendment or are against it because you believe that you will benefit with an unarmed civilian population or you are blinded by your ignorance. It matters not yet that technology in the weapons arena has changed since the second amendment was written - a bullet still extinguishes a life the same today as it did then. It only takes one good finger to pull a trigger & one bullet from a simple gun will kill just as well as one bullet from an automatic rifle. I believe only those who prefer a form of government that tells everyone what to do & how to do it are against armed citizens. How you can distrust your neighbor, but trust a stranger that you never met with a weapon - makes no sense.

At this point in time I’m convinced that we’re all pretty much on the same side . I don’t yet see any reason to take up arms and hopefully that won’t occur anytime soon.

However if the time to take up arms does occur in your lifetime you can be assured that the biggest telltale to pending action will be maneuvers to take your ability to fight back or say, “stop” away. Another words - turn in your weapons & do whatever you’re told to do or we have some reprogramming camps to give you a chance to reconsider where your loyalties lie. I’m sure there are some folks in other places on the planet that will tell you how effective rocks and human shields are against guns and bulldozers.

Is it too late to change things with the written word, better education, better communication & a vote – no it's not too late because you still have your arms.

GW or Kerry? The fact of the matter is I know it’s made very little difference to us which guy is president. Just a bit different cut of the same marked deck of cards – if you don’t get that yet maybe you need to dig a little deeper. Of course I’d much rather have wealthy successful folks running government then unsuccessful folks just like I’d rather have a strong experienced guide leading me up a mountain peak then an unproven one, but I think the old “government of the people, by the people, for the people” has changed to government for those with the deep pockets & screw everyone else if we can get away with it has become the status quo.

It’s clear that we’ve lost our vote in the highest offices in the land because the only means to communicate to the population about who your choices are is severely corrupted and when they put the same two names & faces in front of you a thousand times they trick you into believing nobody else has a chance thus you will choose one side of the same coin & their tactics pay off again & again. It has gone from choosing who best represents the people to a media driven marketing contest where all the other candidates are ignored and the only game is what side of the family gets to pilfer the people and others residing on our planet with us for the next few years.

While it will always take money & good marketing to get elected taking the election away from the few who control television & major media sources would be a good step in getting our country back in our own hands. It’s really that simple – otherwise it will end up a bloody battle someday guns or no guns.

When there’s no clear reason to fight or no clear sides to choose to fight on you're unable to fight the real enemy. They have effectively divided us- Muslims against Christians, blacks against whites, men against women, young against old, republicans against democrats and the list goes on. Wake up people we are all on the same side. We have pretty good freedom of movement, we can acquire more than enough satisfying food, we have shelter from the elements & most of those who would wish to do us harm. Yeah for us in America things are not all that bad, but take away one of those or our liberty & life would be a radical change.

Yes, I love my country, I’m overall pretty happy, & I will defend my country if & when necessary. Even if my country gets taken over by dark criminals I will still defend my country, as they are not my country – the land I live on is my country and those who live on it with me are my country as well.

The American people are being drugged & don’t even realize it because most of those drugs are labeled as food such sugar, caffeine, & other toxins – as some have mentioned in this thread. As long as they keep you drugged & programmed by media sources such as newspapers & television they have you under their control. The drugs that can cleanse your system or clear your mind are highly illegal as some of them act as deconditioning agents. I’m not advocating anyone use illegal drugs – but you need to be aware that you are on drugs that are not called drugs & they change your perceptions of reality in such a way that you are unaware of many aspects of reality. Open your eyes & you will see.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by outsider]

the more i think about voilent revolt against the american government, the more i think how futile a resistance struggle would be against the vastly superior armed forces of the united states army....i keep hearing talk of how the second amendment will protect us against tyrannical governments, but i fail to see how some handguns and rilfes are going to hold their ground against tanks, rocketry, and depleted uranium shells

Originally posted by deltaboy
Thats almost like saying the Frenchies never wanted to be liberated.

The French were overrun by the Nazi war machine. They were INVADED by the Germans and ASKED FOR LIBERATION from an enemy who conquered ALL of Europe. To compare WWII with Iraq is like comparing fresh water to toilet water with a big turd in it. It's not an opinion just plain stupid to do so.

Originally posted by deltaboy
The Iraqis do want to be liberated but they want American troops out, but they admit they can't defend themselves yet, dats y American troops are busy fighting the insurgents and terrorists while the Iraqi police and army are learning and getting equipment. you realize how many Iraqi police and army have been killed?'

First of all using the terms insurgents and terrorists only shows your lack of knowledge, being that both are Iraqi civilians mixed with jihad recruits from various countries. The Iraqi's want to be liberated from decades of death and destruction we have imposed upon them along with the EU in a long power struggle for their oil dating pre WWII. You do forget we helped position Sadaam the assassin in power. How quickly minds forget while bogged down in overwhelming propaganda.

Originally posted by Ungoliath
i fail to see how some handguns and rilfes are going to hold their ground against tanks, rocketry, and depleted uranium shells

There would be no benefit to them by using such weapons & thus it will never happen. Besides that's a piss poor argument for taking away the second amendment



[edit on 14-5-2005 by outsider]

Originally posted by outsider

Originally posted by Ungoliath
i fail to see how some handguns and rilfes are going to hold their ground against tanks, rocketry, and depleted uranium shells

There would be no benefit to them by using such weapons & thus it will never happen. Besides that's a piss poor argument for taking away the second amendment



[edit on 14-5-2005 by outsider]

i never said that was an agrument to take away the second amendment....dont know where you got that from...i was just saying that people claim the second amendment keeps us safe from tyrants, when it doens't...maybe 230 some odd years ago it would have, not today though

Saying the second amendment is obsolete or has no more merit today just supports the argument that we might as well eliminate rights to own guns since there is a small percentage of problems because of them. Those of us who believe they make a difference accept the problems that go along with having them - we believe the benefits outweigh the problems created by having them. If you believe they don't make a difference then you might as well eliminate them & those problems - right? Or do you have a better replacement for the second amendment you want to share with the rest of us?

Making the statement you did implies that there is no valid reason for the second amendment to exist any longer. While you did not come out directly say abolish the second amendment your words imply that it's obsolete & therefore no longer useful. Bullets are still lethal my friend and so is the second amendment.

The idea that a full-scale war is needed to boot tyrants from power is flawed; likely we will never need war or revolution etc. to make changes. We only need to communicate who they are & what real crimes they're responsible for & use our power of the vote to make necessary changes. If they're not responsible for crimes, but their not looking out for our best interest we need to communicate that & put someone else in their place who is looking out for our best interest & not just their own.

Instead of just looking at guns as weapons it might help you to look at guns as tools. Only when fired do these tools become weapons, but most of the time they don't need to be discharged & the tools perform quite well.

Having a weapon ready for folks those tyrants might send to your home to quell your attempts at disseminating true information about them that may lead to their downfall certainly makes anyone who is ordered to enter your premises think twice about doing it. Ask any Cop or Swat team member if it makes a difference if the drug dealers home they have to enter has weapons or not. That's a no - brainier. Guns make a difference, so either wake up sheeple or quit spreading disinformation Lieutenant.


[edit on 14-5-2005 by outsider]

well what do you think the second amendment was created for?...

you keep taking my words and twisting them...i do not want to abolish the second amendment...this thread is about taking up arms against the american government and i simply stating that the balance of firepower is so titled in the favor of the government (which wasn't the case 230 years ago) that armed resistance with the weapons americans are permitted to own would indeed be futile

You know, I really don't totally understand why people even reply to these threads. The person who made this thread obviously does not understand politics, otherwise he wouldn't call anything totalitarian.

I would only suggest that he picks up a dictionary and gets the definition, and then rethinks what he/she claimed.

Well he didn't say the US is totalitarian, it's obviously not, not even close.

On the other hand, there are worrying signs that we are headed in that direction. The US executive and legislative branches are currently in the hands of people who adhere to two authoritarian ideologies: Straussian "neocon-ism", which calls for a government based on deception and manipulation of the public, and Christian fundamentalism, which is more or less the public face of Christian Reconstructionism, an unabashed theocratic totalism.

So while the US is not even a vaguely totalitarian country now, the potential for it to become one is real, perhaps more real than at any point in our history. It's certainly more sensible (and ethical) to fight that with the peaceful means our Constitution provides us, but we cannot assume that those means will always be there.

Besides it was a question: "Is it time to take up arms?", not a statement that it is.
Reading through the thread, there seems to be general agreement that the answer is no.

Originally posted by Qwas
I agree with Byrd. Your Second Amendment rights have been deteriorating for years, remember it says your right to bear arms shall not be infringed. We've lost so many rights that it's getting ridiculous. But to come out shooting is just wrong.

Amen to the loss of Rights. Try getting a license to carry in Mass. It's a war of attrition with the local PD who look for every reason not to issue to law-abiding citizens. It is getting ridiculous, and not to get too far off topic, I hope the "Castle Doctrine" in Florida becomes a success. Gun Laws are just taking firearms out of the wrong hands.

This topic line has come up in various way for over 30 years ...that I know about. It has however..since the Branch Davidian incident and Ruby Ridge incident...taken up new meaning among certain Americans who can think past the next installment of American Idol or the Apprentice.

It is known in these circles..that particulary Liberal Administrations look down on the ability of Americans to own and keep firearms of any type. However..it is also known among Conservative administrations...dont turn your back to far on them either.

There appear to be two basic formats ..politically .in America.

One has to do with fuedalism..or a feudalistic approach to government. This dogma ...religious dogma..implys that certain people are more suited to ruling and enforcing their political dogma/religion..by virtue of birthright/education...party affiliation..etc etc..
We saw this clearly after the last national election..surfacing in the news by the resentments of the more vocal political peoples in the state of California..with their statements of outrage at the election results. The implication of what they were saying was that they in the State of California have more influence on the n ation...more people with degrees...more clout than most of the other states and therefore are somehow entitled to a bigger say or effect on the outcome.....this is Feudal thinking..not a representative ...form of government ..it is implying ..entitlement....feudalism. If this is education...it needs to be examined carefully. Dont ever give this kind of ignorance a free pass...it is also very telling of the bias in certain news medias..for all their education too. BEWARE of disguised FEUDALISM. It is as UN American as it gets.
This feudal approach to government implys that these people know what is good for you . It can be used by any existing political party. ANY PARTY!!!

The other view is that people of their own accord ..their own abilitys..have the right to determine for themselves...what they want and need to do and are not beh olden to a feudal system ...to get things done. It is not dependent on birthright , education or political affilliation..etc...it is the one of individual liberty.

The key to this one is understanding which of the partys are working twords this view...and end result or are they working for a result determined for and by the political partys ..not necessarily the public benifit. You need to understand the concept that ..the needs of the political partys are not necessarily the needs of the public. This is not a concept taught much in schools.

Keeping and bearing arms is only a small part of this issue but a very telling one.

Remember ..this ..Politics is definitely a religon among many peoples..with definite dogmas..and often unwritten rules...but a religion definitely ..with devout adherants.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I am a republican
Yeah right.
and i can see my country being turned into a tolitarian regime.
Have the storm troppers come and taken you, Dan Rather, Kitty Kelly, and the Senate Democrats away yet? No. What happened?

Im sure the democrats agree by now that the government of the US has decided unilateraly to
Oh boy here we go! Let me grab my barf bag.

not listen to it's citizens,
Wasn't there an election last year? But wait, leading polls by the NYT and Wash Post have more authority over elections.

to wage wars for money,
That Iraq War is making us a lot of money! Oil prices are lower than ever, and we hardly have any bill to pay whatsoever!

Crack down on freedoms of every american by now passing legislation that will require National ID's.
I don't have an ID card. If you refering to the Patriot act, tell me the last time it was used.

and the list goes on and on.
Which means I ran out of ideas and don't want to make up more.

Is enough enough yet? Whats the next step banning the right to bear arms?
Funny. The Brady Bill just expired. I just picked up an 8 round shotgun and a 12 round rifle.

First we need to impeach bush, if enough of us write our congressmen maybe we can begin impeachment proceedings. I hate to say it but we will need a democrat to undo the mess Bush & Co. have created.
Right out of that Republican playbook. Bring in John Kerry or Hillary Clinton that will move the Federal budget up to 6 trillion instead of 3 (which is absolutely disgusting)
Or better yet Michael Moore! We Republicans love that idea of his of 98% taxes on the rich (you know, the people making more than 40,000 a year) and giving it to the poor (ie his friends).

[edit on 16-5-2005 by lukethedrifter]

[edit on 16-5-2005 by lukethedrifter]

Straussian "neocon-ism", which calls for a government based on deception and manipulation of the public
I thought neo-conservatism caused for a drastic lowering of government? Look at Bush and all the Republicans. Every turn they try to lower govt. roles. Low taxes, private social security.
Come to think about it, that's it besides their foreign policy. In reality they really haven't done nothing domestically.

and Christian fundamentalism, which is more or less the public face of Christian Reconstructionism, an unabashed theocratic totalism
Bush must be a theocratic dictaor. Look at what he did:
1 doesn't lock up high school football coaches for leading a prayer before a football game,
2. remarks that its okay if a judge wants to post the ten commandaments in a courtroom,
3. thinks abortion is bad,
4. tries to prevent a woman being starved to death based on heresey evidence
5. Says he prays and goes to church
So lock him up! Its obvious he is a monarchist fascist commie racist capitalist pig!

Look at your side. If anyone is proselytising it is the secular left. The ACLU banned all religion for the classroom and teaches moral relativism like its dogma.

Oh and please explain how we are a facists state when this administration will be gone in less than three years and a completly new one will take its place. Also explain how the current administration views are in line with the conservative revolution in 1980 that occurred after the Great Society and the Progressive movement fell flat on its face.

Originally posted by Ungoliath
well what do you think the second amendment was created for?...

Precisely what it says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

This Article sums up the intent of the second amendment & why it was created pretty well.

resistance with the weapons americans are permitted to own would indeed be futile

While you are entitled to believe "resistance is futile" I don't subscribe to that belief, nor does Captain Picard

. Have you ever seen the movie "Red Dawn?". That might give you a little better idea about what my viewpoint is and why I don't always subscribe to the idea that the better-equipped force will win. I would give other obvious examples of more recent history based on reality instead of a fictional movie, but that might take this thread off on a tangent that I don't want to start.


[edit on 16-5-2005 by outsider]

Originally posted by lukethedrifter
I am a republican
Yeah right.

You'd be surprised at the number of "republicans" who have woken up. Although "democrats" are just as gullible in my opinion. And while we are mentioning the party lines..... the incessant bickering between parties does nothing but aid in creating a public divide. If the people can't unify, then nothing will change in the immediate future, or as long as the system exists for that matter. But I'm sure that you like everything exactly the way it is now, correct?

and i can see my country being turned into a tolitarian regime.
Have the storm troppers come and taken you, Dan Rather, Kitty Kelly, and the Senate Democrats away yet? No. What happened?

The world has seen examples of an overnight conversion to fascism. It simply doesn't work, the public is actually very keen in that sense. We've seen various attempts by madmen, and the swift intervention based on the demand of the public. But the US has become keen to this also, and they now understand the method by which they can effectively convert to fascism. I'll use an analogy to better help you understand...

I watched my little brother grow up in front of my eyes, but he never really seemed different to me, the changes in his size / mannerisms / voice etc. were too subtle for me to really take a step back and notice something really different, this was the norm for about 10 years. When I moved out for the first time, I spent about 4 months away from home, came back, and I was shocked to see how different he was, almost a completely different person. See being away from him, and coming back, the subtle changes that I saw before were actually big ones, but too slow to notice until I moved away.

This is how they are doing it, and that is why its working very well. Slow and steady wins the race.

not listen to it's citizens,
Wasn't there an election last year? But wait, leading polls by the NYT and Wash Post have more authority over elections.

I'm not even going over this again...I would suggest taking a second to actually read about the last two elections.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

to wage wars for money,
That Iraq War is making us a lot of money! Oil prices are lower than ever, and we hardly have any bill to pay whatsoever!

"President Bush announced Sunday that he will ask Congress for $87 billion for U.S. operations next year in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere — $66 billion for military and intelligence efforts, $21 billion for reconstruction. Senior administration officials said the request demonstrates that the president's commitment to fighting terrorism would not be shaken by the growing financial burden."
www.usatoday.com...

I guess that is just "free" money huh? let me clue you in on a little something...these companies are making that money that you speak of. And even more hilarious, the money that they are "making" is US tax dollars.

The sheer brilliance of this is almost as hilarious as the ignorance of the complacent public.

Crack down on freedoms of every american by now passing legislation that will require National ID's.
I don't have an ID card. If you refering to the Patriot act, tell me the last time it was used.

The national IDs will look like just like your state DL, but it will contain proprietary info that is standard for all states, as of now you are in a state database if you have a drivers license, soon you will also be in a federal database.

and the list goes on and on.
Which means I ran out of ideas and don't want to make up more.

Your desire to bash those who oppose your view is almost as pathetic as your desire to smash people's skepticism. If you aren't being paid by a gov't agency to disinform us all, you definitely should be. You have the makings of a true patriot.

Is enough enough yet? Whats the next step banning the right to bear arms?
Funny. The Brady Bill just expired. I just picked up an 8 round shotgun and a 12 round rifle.

now for the actual subject of the thread....

The weapons manufacturers have a decent grip on the gov't, and their "financial interests" aren't completely congruent with an NWO scenario upon first examination. On the other hand, the consequences (ie. knee jerk reaction) to a violent conflict between citizens and the gov't could quite possibly be a more oppressive regime. And to those that think an armed populace has no chance against an oppressive regime, you forget that in guerilla warfare, the main source of weapons for the rebel force is the military itself. Their weapons will be used against them.

Now as for the pacifists....
I found some interesting quotes from Orwell, some of which you'd probably agree with and have a pertinence to this thread. He mentions that pacifism is actually PRO-FASCIST. And his argument is that pacifists simply argue that they can separate themselves from conflict, while still pumping the oil, and buying the fast food, and paying the taxes that fund it. That really put my head through the loop, and finally gives me a clue as to why the hippie-granola types bother me like they do. Its one of the ultimate hypocrisies.

Yes all of the things that governments do have the purpose of preserving the western way of life. So if that is your motivation, all the power to you, just try to not let anything bother you and continue about your day. Actually changing things would entail giving up that way of life. This is why a huge collapse of this way is the only way, because not enough people are willing to give that up. We can't really do much to hasten the process, we can only prepare for it. So I guess I'd just say good luck to all those here, if we see a situation like this during our lifetimes. Just be prepared, learn how to survive without power / food supply / shelter, and you'll have a better chance when it does happen.

[edit on 16-5-2005 by benign]

Benign, you suggest that Republicans was awakened. If that is true, then what are they calling themselves, now? Is this it? www.constitutionparty.com...

I would suggest it be. Once you realize that the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are two horses in a two-horse race and are both owned by the same entity you'll bail out of both.

What was the second amendment for? As they said, so that we would be able to take our government back from arbitrary or tyrannical rule.

Would weapons in the hands of the citizenry do the trick? Sure, if the citizenry were unified and resolved. That would entail people unplugging from their TV and at the same time not worry what will happen to their 401(k). That will not happen.

I thought neo-conservatism caused for a drastic lowering of government? Look at Bush and all the Republicans. Every turn they try to lower govt. roles. Low taxes, private social security.

Traditional fiscal conservatism calls for limited government & reductions in federal spending. The Bush administration has paid lip service to these goals but done exactly the opposite.

Bush & co are not traditional conservatives by any measure - Bush spends money like a drunken sailor, and the size of the federal government has increased radically under his administration. Neocons are not true conservatives - they are right-wing statists - in fact many of them, if you look into it, are former far-left types.

[edit on 5/16/05 by xmotex]

OK to the first guy.

The sheer brilliance of this is almost as hilarious as the ignorance of the complacent public.
This was a sarcastic remark. Oil prices are at an all time high. And if you are going to accuse the govt. of padding it's own friends, please break down the budget Bush proposed.

I've never seen one but I bet the vast majority goes to wages, and a lot in supplies which we give to the Iraqis. I'm sure there are some profits made, but its not like 80 billion is going to Dick Cheney.

As far as Bush being a neo-con, please list specifics of how he's instituting a facist state. The only policies that I know he has completled so far is tax cuts and no child left behind. The only other things in his agenda are Anwar drilling and Social Security Privatization.

All of these are traditional conservative values of small government and accountability.

And please, someone find a real case of how the Big Bad Patriotic Act got someone thrown in jail. The only people it affected were two known drug lords. Even then, it was only used for sneak and peak, and sharing of info between the FBI and CIA.

And I'm not a government employee. Check out my company below. I just have to have a full functional working brain.

The weapons manufacturers have a decent grip on the gov't, and their "financial interests" aren't completely congruent with an NWO scenario upon first examination. On the other hand, the consequences (ie. knee jerk reaction) to a violent conflict between citizens and the gov't could quite possibly be a more oppressive regime.
Too....much....wacko....goobledeegook. Head....swiming. Super.....powers....diminishing....Must....get.....beer.......

Ah! Beer! Now I can handle this pile of monkey-poo!

The biggest companies in the US are Walmart, Microsoft, GM, GE and Exxon, and McDonalds. GE makes jet turbines, but that's it. Boening and Lockhead Martin make missles.
But if these companies are in bed with the govt. they are doing a horrible job. GEs finacials are awful and they are being forced to cleanup the Hudson river and causing them to lose a ton of money.
Look at each individual company. If you look how much they spend to adhere to govt. regulations, it is much more than the money they get from contracts.

And to those that think an armed populace has no chance against an oppressive regime, you forget that in guerilla warfare, the main source of weapons for the rebel force is the military itself. Their weapons will be used against them.
You're right on. If US ciitizens are going to take up arms, something very very big will have to happen. It would be like the civil war.

Now as for the pacifists....
I found some interesting quotes from Orwell, some of which you'd probably agree with and have a pertinence to this thread. He mentions that pacifism is actually PRO-FASCIST. And his argument is that pacifists simply argue that they can separate themselves from conflict, while still pumping the oil, and buying the fast food, and paying the taxes that fund it.
That's funny, I never mentioned pacisficsm. I'm not sure you are talking about pacifisits like Code Pink, or pacifists in the sense of everyday Americans.
If it's the later, look at what you are saying. Have you ever brought someone who've lived in a foreign country (India, China, Mexico, Russia, Arabia) to the US? It's like a kid in Disney World. They can't believe the wealth and freedom we have. Arabian men can't believe women can dress like they do here. Chinese students can't believe we have the freedoms in schools and activities like we do. Russians and Mexicans can't believe the everyday wealth we take for granted.

That really put my head through the loop, and finally gives me a clue as to why the hippie-granola types bother me like they do. Its one of the ultimate hypocrisies.
What?

Yes all of the things that governments do have the purpose of preserving the western way of life.
It's the best thing in the world now? Why have a revolution? Who do you want to emulate? Cuba, Europe, N. Korea?

So if that is your motivation, all the power to you, just try to not let anything bother you and continue about your day. Actually changing things would entail giving up that way of life. This is why a huge collapse of this way is the only way, because not enough people are willing to give that up.
Yeah, living in a country where you can walk up to anyone and ask for money, never go hungry, always have a lawyer, never be thrown in prision for debt, and can never be locked up for what you say is awful. It's a modern day 3rd Reich

We can't really do much to hasten the process, we can only prepare for it. So I guess I'd just say good luck to all those here, if we see a situation like this during our lifetimes.
Excuse me, but I've got news for you. If you are not happy now, with all the wealth and oppurtunity available to you, you will never be happy. Can I ask what type of job you have and if you have a family? If something is bothering you, be man enough to tell them to hit the road jack and move on. As Merle Haggard said "Down every road there is always one more city."

Just be prepared, learn how to survive without power / food supply / shelter, and you'll have a better chance when it does happen.
Can you please describe this great Utopia you are picturing? Let me guess it looks exactly the same as Tyler Durdun's visions in fight club. If you want to experience what it is like living in a farm state, go into your basement and turn off the main water line. Without running water you wouldn't last two days.

Y'know, what I see here is something akin to treason. In any other country that didn't allow free speach would throw you in a clink that was far worse than the TV, gym, and fluffy prisons we have here. I have many theories about what we as the government are hiding and doing behind the scenes. You should concentrate more on the men behind the power than the power itself. The bankers are to blame not the politicians. Who is worse the men who finance the autrocities or the men who order them? At the very least the men who ordered it, did it for reasons of percieved good (however demented). The financiers have no such loyalty to idealogy. They care only for money and the power it weilds. It is them you should bear arms against, not your elected government. You did not elect them and had no say over who controls your destiny i.e. he who has the gold makes the rules.

I have spent almost 18 years defending your rights to makes statements you do here. I have been to India, Pakistan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabie, Turkey, Panama and other third world nations during times of conflict. I was at the Pentagon when the plane hit (and yes it was a plane I have pieces). It makes me sad to think it was wasted on most of you. You let the media poison your minds instead of opening a book and educating yourself about the truth of things. We have become an instant on society.

My Pastor once said that America needs to have a few bad things happen to it to make us aware of all the blessings we take for granted. I tend to think he was right.

Poor and destitute people have more to live for because they tend to need the hope that what lies beyond this life will be better. We have lost sight of our hope that the government that we elect will do right by us. It is a fools call to overthrow that which will not be overthrown. How can you cut off your own nose and say you now look pretty? Will you lift arms against neighbors and shoot because they are in a government job and "part of the problem".

IMHO this is mostly just a few folks who are venting and nothing more. For the one or two who really think they are going to lift arms against what I have given my blood for, I say that the oath I took to defend against enemies foriegn and domestic will be enforced. I am not saying I will kill you, just that I will defend against it. If that means I see you loading a suspicious 55 gal drum into a car, I will report it and detain you if I can. That my friend is service before self and what you will find in all true American hearts.