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What's Your "Line in the Sand"? What would it take for you to revolt against the government?

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posted on May, 24 2005 @ 07:01 PM

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
[...] socialist programs are riff [...]

Just curious, what do you mean by "socialist programs are riff" - If you mean 'rife' (meaning: prevailing, common or widespread) I would have to disagree with you to the highest degree possible...

The US is one of the countries that has taken almost any/every effort to squash a Socialist ideal becoming a concept that is one the American (and the world for that matter) Workers mind... (ie they can be in control for themselves)...


Originally posted by KrazyJethro
I'm pretty much ready now, but I'm preparing for it. This government is crap through and through.

Taxes are way way too high, waste is obsene beyond most people's imagination, [...], our people are lazy thinkers, the media is garbage, priorities are shot, there is no family structure therefore no community, [...]

I'm not very optimistic that we'll last till I die.

But I agree 100% with you on all the other statements you made... May I ask how you are " preparing for it " - I would make the recommendation that EVERYONE start preparing and participating in the worldwide revolution that will inevitably take place sooner or later... And with the way the US is at the moment, I might recommend that sooner, may be a more beneficial situation to consider...

You can start by answering yourself these questions...

Why are the taxes so high, and where do all your tax dollars go? - Is this where you personally would want place your money? - And want is the alternative...

Why is the Western-World so wasteful, and why do people not register with it... And why is the food, resources etc, wasted - when it could be given to the needy (Whose interest does that serve)

Why are people lazy, what makes them lazy?

What is the media used for? ... Do you agree with the 'garbage' it puts out? ... And whose interests does it serve?

Priorities, what are yours? What are theirs? And whose priorities are being served currently?

The family structure has changed, why?, who is responsible, who is affected, and what made it happen? - And whose interests THAT serves... (The Same for Communities)


Originally posted by KrazyJethro
[...]socialist programs are riff [...] and capitalism is gone.

On the contrary, the 21st Century America is completely the opposite - Almost ALL socialist programs are gone (no adequate public health care, no adequate public schooling, no adequate work programs, etc etc) - and about the only thing that actually remains in Capitalism (private health care, private schooling, and corporate super-giants)

And I dunno, if anyone clicked onto what I was trying to say earlier but - The answer to all the questions I asked (in referral to why the world is so messed up), the predominate answer to these questions is $money$, $greed$, and $power$ ...

Capitalism is the problem, not the government (though it is partly responsible), not the ignorant public (though they are partly responsible), not the so called 'terrorists' (though they are a bi-product of Capitalistic oppression) etc etc...



The socio-economic system where social relations are based on commodities for exchange, in particular private ownership of the means of production and on the exploitation of wage labour.

Wage labour is the labour process in capitalist society: the owners of the means of production (the bourgeoisie) buy the labour power of those who do not own the means of production (the proletariat), and use it to increase the value of their property (capital). In pre-capitalist societies, the labour of the producers was rendered to the ruling class by traditional obligations or sheer force, rather than as a “free” act of purchase and sale as in capitalist society.

Value is increased through the appropriation of surplus value from wage labour. In societies that produce beyond the necessary level of subsistence, there is a social surplus, i.e. people produce more than they need for immediate reproduction. In capitalism, surplus value is appropriated by the capitalist class by extending the working day beyond necessary labour time. That extra labour is used by the capitalist for profit; used in whatever ways they choose.

The main classes under capitalism are the proletariat (the sellers of labour power) and the bourgeoisie (the buyers of labour power). The value of every product is divided between wages and profit, and there is an irreconcilable class struggle over the division of this product.

Capitalism is one of a series of socio-economics systems, each of which are characterised by quite different class relations: tribal society, also referred to as “primitive communism”, ancient or “slave” society, and feudalism. It is the breakdown of all traditional relationships, and the subordination of relations to the “cash nexus” which characterises capitalism. The transcendence of the class antagonisms of capitalism, replacing the domination of the market by planned, cooperative labour, leads to socialism and communism.



"The organisation of society in such a manner that any individual, man or woman, finds at birth equal means for the development of their respective faculties and the utilisation of their labour. The organisation of society in such a manner that the exploitation by one person of the labour of his neighbour would be impossible, and where everyone will be allowed to enjoy the social wealth only to the extent of their contribution to the production of that wealth."
-- August Bebel
Die Frau und der Sozialismus

"Now and then the workers are victorious, but only for a time. The real fruit of their battles lie not in the immediate result, but in the ever expanding union of the workers. This union is helped on by the improved means of communication that are created by Modern Industry, and that place the workers of different localities in contact with one another. It was just this contact that was needed to centralize the numerous local struggles, all of the same character, into one national struggle between classes.


"The essential conditions for the existence and for the sway of the bourgeois class is the formation and augmentation of capital; the condition for capital is wage labor. Wage labor rests exclusively on competition between the laborers. The advance of industry, whose involuntary promoter is the bourgeoisie, replaces the isolation of the laborers, due to competition, by the revolutionary combination, due to association. The development of Modern Industry, therefore, cuts from under its feet the very foundation on which the bourgeoisie produces and appropriates products. What the bourgeoisie therefore produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers.


"And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.

("These measures will, of course, be different in different countries. Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be generally applicable.")

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.
-- Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels
The Communist Manifesto
Chapter 1 and Chapter 2

"The question then arises: What transformation will the state undergo in communist society? In other words, what social functions will remain in existence there that are analogous to present state functions?

"Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.
--Karl Marx
Critique of the Gotah Programme
Part IV: On Democracy

"The dictatorship of a single class is necessary not only for every class society in general, not only for the proletariat which has overthrown the bourgeoisie, but also for the entire historical period which separates capitalism from "classless society", from communism. Bourgeois states are most varied in form, but their essence is the same: all these states, whatever their form, in the final analysis are inevitably the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The transition from capitalism to communism is certainly bound to yield a tremendous abundance and variety of political forms, but the essence will inevitably be the same: the dictatorship of the proletariat.
--Vladimir Lenin
The State and Revolution
Chpt 2.

"What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges.

"Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society — after the deductions have been made — exactly what he gives to it..."

"But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement...

"Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only — for instance... one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal."
--Karl Marx
Critique of the Gotah Programme
Part I

"The first phase of communism, therefore, cannot yet provide justice and equality; differences, and unjust differences in wealth will still persist, but the exploitation of man by man will have become impossible because it will be impossible to seize the means of production — the factories, machines, land, etc. — and make them private property.... Marx shows the course of development of communist society....which [firstly] consists in the distribution of consumer goods "according to the amount of labor performed" (and not [yet] according to needs)."

"But the scientific distinction between socialism and communism is clear. What is usually called socialism was termed by marx the "first", or lower, phase of communist society. Insofar as the means of production becomes common property, the word "communism" is also applicable here, providing we do not forget that this is not complete communism."
--Vladimir Lenin
The State and Revolution
Chpt. 5: The first phase of Communist Society

See also: Communism



“To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability.”
--Karl Marx
Critique of the Gotha Program

"In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.
-- Marx & Engels
The German Ideology
Private Property and Communism

"From the moment all members of society, or at least the vast majority, have learned to administer the state themselves, have taken this work into their own hands, have organized control over the insignificant capitalist minority, over the gentry who wish to preserve their capitalist habits and over the workers who have been thoroughly corrupted by capitalism — from this moment the need for government of any kind begins to disappear altogether. The more complete the democracy, the nearer the moment when it becomes unnecessary. The more democratic the "state" which consists of the armed workers, and which is "no longer a state in the proper sense of the word", the more rapidly every form of state begins to wither away.

"Then the door will be thrown wide open for the transition from the first phase of communist society [Socialism] to its higher phase [Communism], and with it the complete withering away of the state.
-- Vladimir Lenin
The State and Revolution
Chpt 5. The higher phase of Communist Society

Communism is the positive supersession of private property as human self-estrangement [alienation], and hence the true appropriation of the human essence through and for man. It is the complete restoration of man to himself as a social — i.e., human — being, a restoration which has become conscious and which takes place within the entire wealth of previous periods of development. This communism, as fully developed naturalism, equals humanism, and as fully developed humanism equals naturalism; it is the genuine resolution of the conflict between man and nature, and between man and man, the true resolution of the conflict between existence and being, between objectification and self-affirmation, between freedom and necessity, between individual and species. It is the solution of the riddle of history and knows itself to be the solution.
-- Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts

This "alienation" [caused by private property] can, of course, only be abolished given two practical premises. For it to become an "intolerable" power, i.e. a power against which men make a revolution, it must necessarily have rendered the great mass of humanity "propertyless", and produced, at the same time, the contradiction of an existing world of wealth and culture, both of which conditions presuppose a great increase in productive power, a high degree of its development. And, on the other hand, this development of productive forces (which itself implies the actual empirical existence of men in their world-historical, instead of local, being) is an absolutely necessary practical premise because without it want is merely made general, and with destitution the struggle for necessities and all the old filthy business would necessarily be reproduced; and furthermore, because only with this universal development of productive forces is a universal intercourse between men established, which produces in all nations simultaneously the phenomenon of the "propertyless" mass (universal competition), makes each nation dependent on the revolutions of the others, and finally has put world-historical, empirically universal individuals in place of local ones.

Without this:

(1) communism could only exist as a local event;

(2) the forces of intercourse themselves could not have developed as universal, hence intolerable powers: they would have remained home-bred conditions surrounded by superstition; and

(3) each extension of intercourse would abolish local communism.

Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples "all at once" and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism. Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers — the utterly precarious position of labour — power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life — presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a "world-historical" existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history.

"Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.
--Marx & Engels
The German Ideology

"Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.

"In bourgeois society, living labour is but a means to increase accumulated labour. In communist society, accumulated labour is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the labourer.

When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class. In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
-- Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels
The Communist Manifesto
Proletarians and Communists


To put it simply

Capitalism: An economic system that benefits the minority
Socialism: An economic system that benefits the majority

Now which one sounds better to you? …

[edit on 24-5-2005 by ghostsoldier]

posted on May, 26 2005 @ 11:30 AM
Ghost, # man, you could try to chop that up a bit so we could have more of a dialog, and yes I meant rife. Who knows why I spelled it "riff", but it doesn't matter really.

I appreciate the effort, but really don't have the time at the moment to respond the whole of you post (work ya know). So this'll have to do for now.

If you think we are a strictly capitalist country, you can make a case for it, although you would have to stretch quite a bit around many of our structures. As socialism is a non-static state, but rather a transitional state, it's not entirely clear at what point constitutes "socialism" so it's fair to say we are in that slowly transitioning state.

The call for Universal Healthcare (which would bankrupt an already bogged down system) is gaining momentum it seems, or it's at least out there.

The government does not "own" business, but it does own some and supports many others that can't seem to turn a buck, namely transportation, ship building, the merchant fleet, steel, etc.

The government has created a safety net that is a one size fits all approach in the same destined to fail mindset as the public schooling system, although the Federal Government really only contributes around 7% of states budgets in education.

They are increasingly in our lives, as the people are "obviously" incapable of making choices themselves, and it's not only the left, but the right as well.

It's no secret that the Federal Government has been slowly moving things from State control to Federal as our increasingly centralized government grows.

This is the path of destruction in my mind, because these systems placed upon our capitalist construct is asking for waste fraud and abuse to be rampant, and it is.

Sorry I can't go into more detail, but there's something to chew on in the meantime.

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