The issue of "Freedom of Speech" on ATS

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posted on May, 10 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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Privilege as in a right?


No a privilege as in...


A privilege—etymologically "private law" or law relating to a specific individual—is an honour, or permissive activity granted by another person or even a government. A privilege is not a right and in some cases can be revoked. For example in most countries driving on publicly-maintained roads is a privilege, if one violates certain rules driving privileges can be revoked.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege




posted on May, 11 2005 @ 12:56 AM
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A right is something you are entitled to. A privelege is something someone gives you. It's pretty simple really.

Someone pays for this site, right?
Someone put this whole thing together, right ?
A few thousand of us enjoy the use of what they did, right?
We're not charged a membership fee to enjoy the use of what they made, right?

So the basic concept here is that the ability to post on this site is a privelege given to us by the people who made it, without asking for a single thing in return. So there's a set of rules. So the folks who the site belongs to want to keep up an element of class. So they want to keep themselves on the proper side of things legally and avoid potential issues other sites have encountered before. So they want people to treat each other with respect.

I fail to see how this is different than someone allowing you to use his pool and simply asking that you don't take a crap in it. Enjoy it and use it as much as you want, but please don't spoil it for everyone else who wants to have fun too.

If you consider my post "sucking up" you're not either not reading it or simply do not want to hear what makes sense. It's nothing unusual. Really.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 01:16 AM
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That's not sucking up. If you think so, you need to reevaluate your definition of sucking up.

I was referring to the "oh my god, that's awesome" "I love you SO!" "SO, I want to have your babies!" "SO, I would KILL for you!" type posts.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 01:18 AM
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I don't how many times it's been said nor how many ways it's been articulated but let me try again...

This site is a CIVIL, decent, and courteous corner of the web. Bottom line is if you would be embarassed having your mother, wife or children read what you are about to post you probably ought to change it up.

The intent is NOT to limit ideas, concepts or debate BUT RATHER to limit vulgar, insulting, hateful, assenine, idiotic, untruthful, misleading, or downright disgusting iterations of said ideas and concepts.

When you speak with friends and family I would hope you avoid the above attrocities and are polite and civil. Same goes here.

There are THOUSANDS of places on the WWW one can partake in all the rank overture one can stand, this is NOT one of them.


As S.O. pointed out, we ALL agreed to this when we agreed to abide by the TAC when we signed on.

m...



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
that is so not true

see i posted what i wanted and said what i wanted




right...

whatever...

ok...

its like this:

post what you want, but if it is too extreme, you get warned...





posted on May, 11 2005 @ 07:46 PM
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Ok, I hate to beat a dead horse (that's the nicest thing I can call him) but I can't believe that the teflon bigot is finally gone. Horacid must have made a deal with the devil just to last as long as he did. Talk about somebody who liked to hide inflamatory and non-constructive posts behind his "rights". I've started a BTS thread in memory of the late Dr Horacid to commemorate some of the jokes he didn't even know he had told.
www.belowtopsecret.com...

For the love of Pete though, I can't believe that SO has to tell anyone this. Anyone who knows not to drop their pants in church obviously understands that access to private institutions is a privlidge. NO BRAINER. (not that anyone would drop their pants in church- but we all know they could kick you out if you did).



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 07:53 PM
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Believe it or not some DON"T know this.

Not infrequently do we get "I can say what I like its a free country" type messages from people, who then refuse to moderate their behaviour.


Originally posted by The Vagabond
For the love of Pete though, I can't believe that SO has to tell anyone this. Anyone who knows not to drop their pants in church obviously understands that access to private institutions is a privlidge. NO BRAINER. (not that anyone would drop their pants in church- but we all know they could kick you out if you did).




posted on May, 11 2005 @ 09:00 PM
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As someone who's recieved a Text, I'd still have to say that posters who lump whole nationalities together and advocate thier destruction are not denying ignorance and deserve the abuse they are agitating to recieve.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 10:39 PM
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I have never understood why some people think that "Freedom of Speech", given in the US Constitution, should be applicible to the world wide web or a privately owned board (where the owner may not reside in the US of A)

Posting on a board is a privilege. It is not a God-given-right. You do not have the right to say anything you feel at the moment. Why is that, you might ask?

Because someone here is paying the bills. Someone else is taking the risk and responsibility. I don't know who it is, but I'm sure there is someone or a "group of someones". The one paying the bills and lists his name as domain owner is the one that decides what should be on his/her board.

If you would like the right to free speech personally, I invite you to buy your own domain, start your own forum and develop your own set of rules. If you can do better than ATS, then get to it!



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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Perhaps the most interesting conceptualization of "free speech" is when it is applied unilaterally in a discussion, much to the detriment of the dissenting parties.

Freedom isn't free.



posted on May, 11 2005 @ 11:43 PM
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For the love of Pete though, I can't believe that SO has to tell anyone this. Anyone who knows not to drop their pants in church obviously understands that access to private institutions is a privlidge. NO BRAINER. (not that anyone would drop their pants in church- but we all know they could kick you out if you did).



Actually, Pastor Pitts did this, several times, and people still pay him thousands of dollars. You have to give him 10,000 just to be allowed in the church. Funny thing is, he hired Burns Security, my mom works there. Right now they have a Wiccan, a Jew, and a Buddist guarding a christian church.(Burns is now known as Securitas)


d1k

posted on May, 12 2005 @ 12:49 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Thank you Skeptic Overlord for once again blessing us

about time someone stepped in


Honestly dude, you seriously got to stop the extreme brown nosing. Every post that comes from regarding mods or the site is riddled with a serious dose of a$$ kissing. That doesn't help anything at all.

Everyone here is human (then again maybe not
) and we all make mistakes. It's Important for the mods to have some kind of regulation as well as users and from my experiences with some of them there is none. There have been situations where some of the mods were so wrong in their actions and comments to the point that it was proven 100%, yet the higher ups like SO still failed to be reasonable and continued down the path they choose disregarding the facts. The mods must practice what they preach and realize they make mistakes to, more importantly get to a level of maturity where they can accpet they made a mistake and correct it.

When I see SO posting a thread that states the site wants "an environment in which members aspire to our higher standards, not scoff at them" I wonder what those standards are. Following every word the mod says blindly? Isn't the motto of this site deny ignorance?

The rules set forth are fine as long as EVERYONE follows them, mods should not be able to do and say what they want with no repercussions as members do not have that privilege.

Let's everyone try to be FAIR, use your heads and be civil, members and mods alike and everything will be fine (that includes losing the fanboy attitude as well).

[edit on 12-5-2005 by d1k]



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 02:03 AM
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I think it is more about how you say it and not what you say.

You can say whatever you want, only if you wrap it up nicely: long post, a picture or two, a few links, no insults directed at any memeber personaly, no swearing, all aranged to be visualy nice and all that.

I could say for example "you are a stupid american" or "you're a stupid arab", and that would be violation of T&C, it is a short, one-liner personal insult, nothing more.

But I could also say "from what I understand, certain people lack sufficient knowledge to fully understand the extent to which this situation has turned into serious threat to the whole world. Here is a link to a "scientific" paper by Dr.Whatever that explains how human brain processes information and another link saying basicaly the same, but with more pictures". No personal insult, no swearing, yet I got my point across.

Certain members have posted tons of stuff that IS racist, genocidal, filled with hatred, but they know HOW to post it to remain within the rules. Those are freedom of speech abusers, but you can't have freedom of speech without them, be it a privilege or a right.



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 02:07 AM
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d1k, this isn't high-school you know. Congratulating and giving kudos to the staff who work thier asses off is not being a brown-nose, it's being appreciative of the hard work the staff put's into this place.



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 07:08 AM
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Originally posted by paperclip
You can say whatever you want, only if you wrap it up nicely: long post, a picture or two, a few links, no insults directed at any memeber personaly, no swearing, all aranged to be visualy nice and all that.


Yes, Paperclip. Or you could post something that is instigative such as
what Jamesthelesser posted on page two of this thread. Instigative is
also covered under 'free speech' ....


But well, KKK, Neo Nazis, Republicans, they have
the right to say what they want, even if it is offensive/racist.


I could now post something like - But well, convicted fellons, drug
addicts, anti-American Communists, democrats, they have the right to
say what they want, even if it is offensive/ignorant.

No, I don't think all democrats are those things but if I did, I could
because instigation or jabs are okay and covered under free speech.

My add - what you CAN say, and what you SHOULD say in polite
conversation are sometimes two very different things. If you say things
that are instigative or a jab .... even if it is allowed .... go ahead but
shame on you.

As Springer said -



This site is a CIVIL, decent, and courteous corner of the web
... limit vulgar, insulting, hateful, assenine, idiotic, untruthful,
misleading, or downright disgusting iterations ...






[edit on 5/12/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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I think it's wise to showcase a recent example of the kind of nonsense we encounter on a weekly basis, then receive threats because we're infringing on someone's "freedom of speech".

Yesterday, member "Silver Star" was banned, his "free speech" was infringed in this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
He's on global ignore, so it's a bit hard for members to see his posts... I'll provide some choice snippets:


It started when he began romantic overtones with another member within a public, and follow-up reaction was not positive.

I was wondering if you are married or dating someone, . . . and if you aren't I was wondering if you are in the market for someone to spend some time with...



Then, his responses were ugly:

DO YOU WANT FOR ME AND YOU to gET IN A FIGHT OR SOMETHING??? IL L WIN PUNK.


Take your daddys four-five, and let it be done with son.


You'd better stop now son whilst you're ahead, or else I'll kill you in a most horrific way.



The first reaction of staff was to put him on Global Ignore and communicate via U2U. The result, he created a new thread titled, "Mod Nazis" with some this nonsense:

I will not include specific mod names or urls depicting ATS mods crimes, or individual stories condeming specific mods for covering up certain conversations involving negative views of said mod, or the seriously embarassing contents of the conversations deleted by the mods and the hypocracy displayed by mods of this and these forums.
>snip<
the deliberate manipulation of things, and most importantly, the DELETION OF FREE SPEECH.
>snip<
To delete words and ideals in their entirety and to make them dissapear....IS THIS NOT WHAT WE FIGHT AGAINST???



So there you have it. An example of the type of pitiful tripe some members attempt to wrap in the guise of "free speech". Certainly, sane people can understand that the core concept of protecting freedom of expression was never intended to support flagrant insults and death threats.



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
d1k, this isn't high-school you know. Congratulating and giving kudos to the staff who work thier asses off is not being a brown-nose, it's being appreciative of the hard work the staff put's into this place.


thats what i was doing, but sadly you can't do this anymore around here without someone taking a dislike to it. Im sorry SO, but ATS has changed in the last two years of me being here, its not as friendly as it use to be

[edit on 12-5-2005 by infinite]



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Im sorry SO, but ATS has changed in the last two years of me being here, its not as friendly as it use to be


Yes, it's unfortunate that we have a few members who prefer to be "anti-staff" at every opportunity and enjoy jumping into threads like this and hijacking it for their strange agenda.

Yesterday, Simon and others reviewed the posting history of one such member, and could not find any posts outside of "Board Questions & Business" in their previous 40 posts. And those posts were invariably of a disruptive tone, simply for the pleasure of being disruptive. As a result, a temporary posting ban was applied, and the issue is being discussed. So, some of the staff have notices, and are considering ways to deal with it.



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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its sad really,
long time members like me always see ATS as a family where everyone is friendly and caring to eachother, now a few bad seeds have come to affect the place. its sad really



posted on May, 12 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by infinite
... ATS has changed in the last two years of me being here


...long time members like me always see ATS as a family where everyone is friendly and caring to each other...


Yes, a definite change in the atmosphere has occurred. But this is natural in a growing 'net community.

I belong to another forum that started on About.com . A group of the steady posters had that feeling of family. Many met face-to-face, called on the phone, etc. Then few members started their own site in order to grow and do some different things. As new members came in and others drifted away, the site changed to a less intimate feel. The core members still talk to each other the same, but it is diluted.
And I'm part of that effect. I still seek out a couple of the "old school", but not as many or as often as in the past.

I don't even think it's a matter of "control" or size, just a natural evolution.





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