Allah = Hubal = Baal?

You have voted paperclip for the Way Above Top Secret award.

I have followed this discussion with great interest. Jakko's question or title of this thread: Allah = Hubal = Baal? has been shown to be an incorrect assumption on his part. Many of the various posters have shown that Allah = Jewish, Yahweh. = Christian, God the Father.

Many of the other beliefs that some seem to equate with "Catholics are not Christian" have also been asked and answered here.

posted by Nygdan on 5/22/2005 at 11:56 AM Post Number: 1403100 (post id:1424993)

Indeed, I know that the only reason there is anything like Christianity is because of the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches, who spread the faith, preserved it against heresey and theologised on it. They are also the only reason that there is anything like a bible, for they are the ones who determined which of the 'books' were frauds and which were 'true', and they were the ones (they beeing the RCC and GOC) who copied the bible thru the millenia of the dark ages.

*skip*

Just as catholicism has introduced stuff you won't find in the bible, (indeed, why shouldn't it), muslims do stuff that isn't necessarily in the Koran. Nevertheless, the faithful beleive in the One True God, the Creator of the Universe, the God who spoke to Abraham. We know this, because this is precisley what they say.

The Catholic Church has preserved and practices many of the traditions from the early years after Christ was crucified.

SomewhereinBetween posted on 5/22/2005 at 06:53 PM Post Number: 1403600 (post id: 1425493)

Very good then, so it has nothing to do with original sin, is where I see you going. This then leads me back to my initial questions in this thread and others posted elsewhere: Why is baptism practiced? Why are Christians constantly told they inherited sin from Adam when they are also told Jesus died to absolve same? Welcome to my world, Jakko, for you do not know it, but in your haste to discount anything I write, you in fact are discounting one of the two basic requirements for belief in Christianity.

Jesus died on the cross to save us from original sin first, and second, personal sin, after confession and penance. Baptism is the saving grace from Jesus crucified because we are all born with original sin. Jesus is man and God and was born without original sin. Mary, his mother, was human. Catholics believe that she was also born free from original sin, using the Grace of her Son's Crucifixion, we call that the Immaculate Conception. When the angel Gabriel addresses her, he says, "Hail Mary full of Grace." She could not be "full of Grace" if she had original sin.

Now I know some of you will answer that it depends on the interpretation of the Bible as to if the phrase is "full of grace". It seems to me that if we believe that God guided the church fathers who put together the Bible in the first place, than we can also believe that He is behind all of
the different interpretations assuring us that nothing has really changed to make the current Bible unbelievable.

Originally posted by jake1997
It seems you didnt bother to check it out, or else you forgot about it.

No, I checked it out, you're right, I am getting a little mixed up with my information here, apologies.

However, I again caution, this is a symbol, its simply the crescent moon. It has no meaning outside the context and the system its interpreted in. A cross, for example, means one thing for a pious christian, but it means another thing in other religious systems. Similarly, a swatstikka in germany evoke hatred, its a symbol of hatred and the nazis, in the east its a symbol of peace and good fortune. We wouldn't say that the nazis were buddhists, no?? Or vice versa.

Its too large to insert.

As a note, if you code it like img=200x150, you get it like this
external image

And this is another thing that has no meaning outside of its context. The stone in the kabba is thought to be an iron meteorite, something that the ancient arabs saw flash out of the heavens, literally, and come to earth. And it was unlike anything on earth, an immpossibly high concentration of iron, proof, they no doubt thought, that it was designed and sent by god. For the pagan arabs, this meant it was sent by the pagan gods (I don't think we can say that they thought it was from Hubal, btw, since there were many idols there). For the monotheistic arabs, they say 'oh, yikes, this great thing, sent from heaven itself, not of this earth, it was indeed sent by a god, but it must be the one true god, and we, foolishly, thought it was from some stupid pagan gods'.
And, again, around the christian world, you can find churches where once pagan temples used to stand. The early christianws built these churches. Does that mean that christians are pagans?

paperclip
Since all false gods were destroyed, al-illah, Allah, the word simply meaning "Deity, God", became a synonym for the one true God.

Indeed, the same thing happens in english nonetheless. When christians worship The Lord, they aren't intending to mean the director of a collection of feudal manors. And, similarly, the word for deity or god is 'theos', hence, theology. This is simply a 'corruption' of the word for the god in greece, Zeus, Deus, Theos, etc, but it doesn't mean that Theology is the study of Zeus.

Anyways, Hubal was a completely different al-illah, deity

This seems to destroy the idea that allah is connected to hubal then. It doesn't lay to rest the idea that allah is Sin, perhaps, but ist a mis-identification of the Moon God in general apparently.


Dang, I'm tempted to not even post this post of mine, since the last ywo of yours seemed to have handled the issue rather definitively.

It is kinda pointless.
Using bible as a 'cut in stone' base from which to start, I will only ever see two religions in the world.
The one that keeps Gods word, and the other that dont. I see all the others as tracable back to Babylon, including both the pagan moon cult, Hinduism, even the Hopi indians.

Im not so much worried about where Islam came from, or where it is going as I am about learning Gods word. This topic was 'there' so I added what I knew.
Do I think they bow before the actaul moon? No. Never said that.
Do I think they are more related then most realize? Sure.
Is it going to matter to a muslim? Not at all. Nor to a christian.
But the only way to Deny Ignorance, is to examine all of the information.

I think that has been done here

Originally posted by MahreeJesus died on the cross to save us from original sin first, and second, personal sin, after confession and penance.

This is a story advanced by church fathers, not the Jesus of the gospels and not anyone who actually was credited with knowing the man.

Baptism is the saving grace from Jesus crucified because we are all born with original sin.

Fine, then deal with the issue of that so called saving grace. You claim above Jesus died to save you from original sin. He died, you were saved the way you see it. Then why bring in baptisim to save you again from original sin after this man died? Do you need a back-up plan, a lifeline or phone-a-priest in case his dying did not save you from original sin? How much more confused can you people be, and how much more nonsensical and contradictionary your claim? I am going to put to your own statements forward once again

Jesus is man and God and was born without original sin. Mary, his mother, was human. Catholics believe that she was also born free from original sin, using the Grace of her Son's Crucifixion, we call that the Immaculate Conception. When the angel Gabriel addresses her, he says, "Hail Mary full of Grace." She could not be "full of Grace" if she had original sin.

Why with this

1)Jesus died on the cross to save us from original sin first, and second, personal sin

Is this also necessary?

2)Baptism is the saving grace from Jesus crucified because we are all born with original sin.

This is the height of ridiculousness when it comes to Christianity, for you are so wrapped up in being saved, you do not recognize that your arguments negate each other.

Mary a human, could not have been born without sin, since the Christian notion is that all humans inherited such sin from Adam. To decide that Mary a human was exempt from such sin is to arbitrarily create whatever position you Christians need to in order to support your twisted doctrine.

It is positions such as that which makes the whole notion of Christianity laughable.





[edit on 5/24/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Mr./Ms. SomewhereinBetween

Jesus died to save us. We have to personally recognize this by choosing to be saved in Jesus' name. When we choose this we are baptized "In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

As has been stated here before, because we are human we also make bad choices and sin during our life time. Then there is the need for us to be sorry for sinning, for going against what we know God wants from us. We then have to ask for His forgiveness in the Name of Jesus, who died for us. When we are repentant and have good intentions to make up for our sin and not to commit this sin again we are forgiven by God.

just to set the record straight, both christianity and islam come from pagan sun worshipping. Why do you think christs death and ressurection coincide with summer and winter solstice? The only difference is christians come from the branch that worshipped planet saturn, and muslims come from those that worshipped venus.

So all you "hard core" worshippers are just being sold a nice lullaby, no matter what religion you are.

peace

Originally posted by nukunuku
just to set the record straight, both christianity and islam come from pagan sun worshipping. Why do you think christs death and ressurection coincide with summer and winter solstice? The only difference is christians come from the branch that worshipped planet saturn, and muslims come from those that worshipped venus.

So all you "hard core" worshippers are just being sold a nice lullaby, no matter what religion you are.

peace

Wow, not since the college "newspaper" have I seen so much skewed information in one paragraph. I hardly know where to start. The reason for the coincidence with summer and winter solstice was to consolidate the holidays to keep all the townspeople to hush up, take off, and celebrate the same day. Integration was a popular way to try to make everyone happy. Even some parts of Christianity advocated this kind of integration to spread the message. It doesn't make me happy. I want my holydays back! Anyhow, I'll leave the rest of nuku's spin-post to the others.




[edit on 24-5-2005 by saint4God]

Why do christians celebrate Easter?

Constantine did not want Easter to be celebrated on the Jewish Passover. He said it was a Christian "duty to have nothing in common with the murderers of our Lord" (ignoring the fact that Christ's execution was a joint effort of Jews and Gentiles).

The Council of Nicea accordingly required the feast of the resurrection to be celebrated on a Sunday and never on the day of the Jewish Passover. Easter was to be on the Sunday after the first full moon following the Spring equinox.

chi.gospelcom.net...


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The only difference is christians come from the branch that worshipped planet saturn, and muslims come from those that worshipped venus.

Both have Venus. Not saturn.
But Saturn and Venus are interchangable for the most part. They over lap.

But dont confuse the graven images of the rcc with christianity. God tells christians not to have graven images so I will have to let someone else explain why the rcc has them.
Find your case in the gospel or retract it.

I think that the false ideas about Catholics are best addressed in Croat's thread here

Originally posted by Mahree
Mr./Ms. SomewhereinBetween

Jesus died to save us. We have to personally recognize this by choosing to be saved in Jesus' name. When we choose this we are baptized "In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

It is Ms. and the collective "we" have to do no such thing. You have failed to address my points, in fact you downright circumvent them, why?

As has been stated here before, because we are human we also make bad choices and sin during our life time.

As was Mary human, so once more you do not address the points I raise. Why not?

Then there is the need for us to be sorry for sinning, for going against what we know God wants from us.

What does this have to do with Jesus? When we as humans of all faiths, denominations and otherwise, recognize that we have sinned, we feel remorse because it is engrained in us. This is what you do not wish to acknowledge, because to do so would require you to accept the fact that feeling remorse for one's actions is not exclusive to Christians and has nothing to do with Jesus.

We then have to ask for His forgiveness in the Name of Jesus, who died for us.

Refer above. We have to do no such thing, particularly since all you have to offer is platitudinous statements relative to what you believe. For 3,760 years not a soul on this earth believed in your appointed saviour, yet you firmly believe in his ancestors over those 4 millenia. You cannot reconcile in any form or fashion that those dead knew absolutely nothing of your Jesus, yet according to their works, not yours, but theirs which your cult hijacked, the likes of Noah and all those who were pious walked in the path of God.

Ms. SomewhereinBetween
Sorry for the "we". I respect your beliefs. This is what I believe. There really isn't any reason to continue this discussion.
Mahree

Originally posted by nukunuku
just to set the record straight, both christianity and islam come from pagan sun worshipping. Why do you think christs death and ressurection coincide with summer and winter solstice? The only difference is christians come from the branch that worshipped planet saturn, and muslims come from those that worshipped venus.

The only problem that I have with such statements is the non-biblical proof that proves Jesus' life and death.
The christian story actually happened, regardless of wether or not you believe He rose from the grave, and wether He was a fraud or really the son of God.

Okay, semitic language root for Allah:

Canaanite: el
Hebrew: eloah
Aramaic: elah
Arabic: allah

Thus the Arabs use the same word/name for God as the Hebrews when they refer to the One God, in their own Semitic dialect form. There occurs a normal process of gradual sound change as similar peoples move apart or experience different cultural influences.

There, not too difficult really. I read earlier in this post about someone's comment regarding Allah fighting on the side of the devil. Sorry, but that sounds like utter nonsense.

Hahahahaha.....Coming soon, they new book that's sweeping accross the nation: "Christians are from Mars, Muslims are from Venus"

BTW, Jakko, I suppose I get what you are saying, but instead of calling it "The Original Sin", wouldn't it be more accurate to call it "The Human Weakness"? I mean, sure, perhaps I would have also reached out for the fruit of the tree, but the fact is, so far I haven't. Perhaps I have a tendency to sin, but that does not make me a sinner automatically before I do anything.

ok, I hope no one minds, I made up a list of facts from the information in this thread, to clear somethings up:

*) Some (pre-dominantly anti-islam) sources such as Dr. Robert Morey's faithdefenders and answering-islam have put forward and propagated a theory that Allah is actually Baal/Hubal

*) Some (pre-dominantly islamic) sources such as islamic-awarness and answering-christianity have analysed these theories and proven them false.

*) The Quran specifically tells you that to worship Baal, the sun, or the moon is utter foolishness. It also tells you that the God of Islam is the God of Abraham, of Moses, of Jesus, etc.

*) Allah in arabic means "The God". It was used to refer to the "High God" of the Pre-Islamic Arab pantheon. To the Pagan arabs, this God was ruler over all other Gods, but the other Gods were used to intercede on various matters (hence a god for love, for fertility, etc). No other god was referred to as Al-illah or Allah.

*) While etymological links between Baal and Hubal and Allah are hazy to non-existing, links between Allah and ellah/eloah/elohim, like many other arab-hebrew similarities are much more obvious.

*) Pre-Islamic arabs most certainly did worship the moon, sun, stars etc., depending on their tribal deity.

*) Muhammad destroyed all pagan idols in the kaaba. However, according to Islam, the kaaba was one of the 1st places of worship of God on the Earth. It was not destroyed.

*) A few supposedly "pagan" rites are performed in Islam (such as the pilgrimage to Makkah, and the circumnavigation of the kaaba). These again, muslims believe were also practiced in earlier times, before the paganisation of the Kaaba, so they were modified (you could not do the circumnavigation naked).

*) Early islam had no pictorial symbol. To identify their armies and caravans, the muslims did, however, use plain coloured flags.

*) The crescent moon symbol was adopted by the turks when they hijacked it after conquering Constantinople. Because Turks were the pre-dominant "face" of Islam to the west (turk was a generic derogatory word for muslim- check out Shakespeare), the crescent moon became a symbol of Islam

*) Because the Turks ruled over Makkah and Madinah, their symbolism spread throughout those places.

*) Islam uses the Lunar calender to place the date of festivals and of fasting. The month starts with the appearance of the new moon, and ends when the moon has fully gone. No month has 2 full moons/2 New moons, and besides, it is just a month. It has no other significance. SIGH...Just to be safe: Muslims do not worship the lunar calender.

[edit on 25-5-2005 by babloyi]

[edit on 25-5-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by nukunuku
just to set the record straight, both christianity and islam come from pagan sun worshipping. Why do you think christs death and ressurection coincide with summer and winter solstice? The only difference is christians come from the branch that worshipped planet saturn, and muslims come from those that worshipped venus.

The only problem that I have with such statements is the non-biblical proof that proves Jesus' life and death.
The christian story actually happened, regardless of wether or not you believe He rose from the grave, and wether He was a fraud or really the son of God.

I dont pretend to be an expert on the subject, however i dont know of any non-biblical proof of Jesus. If he did live on earth, i think he was one cool fellow, as was muhammed.
Considering christianity, i belive in the 10 commandements, i think its all you really need to stay out of trouble in life. The rest is very very questionable to me, as i belive it was subjugated to numerous changes to fit the churchs desire to control the sheeple.

sorry about saturn/venus...i mightve misunderstood

Originally posted by babloyi
Hahahahaha.....Coming soon, they new book that's sweeping accross the nation: "Christians are from Mars, Muslims are from Venus"

ROTFL! Ah, that was great... thanks babloyi.

I surely am not a satanist but aren't all religions just a try to improve control over the masses. Muslim religion is just another instant monoteistic religion package.
I find it weird how all those religions evolved in one particular region of the world right from the sphinx and pyramids to the slaves, cough, people.
ten comendments, who can say there were ten I betr there were 20 but 10 for the people another five for the secret rullers, which basicaly make those first 10 not valid.
People are still very religious and will find themselves offended for telling them the truth, all religions are fake.

Originally posted by nukunuku

I dont pretend to be an expert on the subject, however i dont know of any non-biblical proof of Jesus. If he did live on earth, i think he was one cool fellow, as was muhammed.
Considering christianity, i belive in the 10 commandements, i think its all you really need to stay out of trouble in life. The rest is very very questionable to me, as i belive it was subjugated to numerous changes to fit the churchs desire to control the sheeple.

I think it would be very intereseting for you to find out how modern versions of the bible are created, and what translations are being used to make them.
I think you will be surprised about how old the "first" translations are that we can acces.

There was a moment in time on which translations were no longer based on the last translation, but on the FIRST translation, in other words, translating the bible became a parallel proces, instead of a serial proces, so from that moment any changes and corruptions of the bible became nearly impossible to survive.

Originally posted by MankoW
I surely am not a satanist but aren't all religions just a try to improve control over the masses.

Oh yes, big bad religions telling people how to love one another and do the right thing...

Originally posted by MankoW
People are still very religious and will find themselves offended for telling them the truth,

Try me. Tell me something true and we'll see if it offends.

Originally posted by MankoW
all religions are fake.

I see MankoW, and you proofs to support this 'fact'?

I believe that alot of Christmas traditions are based on pagan rituals. I still celebrate Christmas by putting up a tree and decorating the house. I know what each of these pagans practices meant to the pagens. I am not a catholic but I am a Christian (this is not an exclusive statement).

What makes my pagan practices different from the practices of old? Although I know what they originally meant, that is not my intent. I celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25. Not because that is the day he was born, but because it is the day we celebrate it. It is not my actions, but what is in my heart. The other stuff is just window dressing. Traditions change throughout the ages.

This is why I try not to judge others. I can only see what they do, I do not know what is in their heart. I was told along time ago:

Never judge someone's outsides by your own insides.