Allah = Hubal = Baal?

Dont get me wrong. I never expected nor intended to convince you. I made a statement and backed it up with the information.
The best that yous have done is to say 'no it aint".
Well... ok.
There is no moongod and he was never worshiped in mecca and he has nothing to do with the moon.
In fact...how can we be sure the moon exists? Maybe its just a chirstian setup?! LOL

Have a good one

Originally posted by jake1997
Dont get me wrong. I never expected nor intended to convince you. I made a statement and backed it up with the information.

Well, technically you made a statement, and then it was revealed that you beleived it because of your interpretation of the bible, not because of information. You've made the information conform to your interpretation of the bibl

The best that yous have done is to say 'no it aint".

Well, thats because it ain't. I mean, allah is not the moon god, by any stretch of the imagination. Hardly matters that there used to be an arab moon god. There used to be a european Sky God, but Jesus ain't the Sky God.

There is no moongod and he was never worshiped in mecca and he has nothing to do with the moon.

Wow, how in the world did you get it like that? Everyone has said, yes, there was a meccan moon god. I am, honestly, confused, how did you go from peopel saying 'yes, there was a cult ofa moon god in mecca, mo came along and destroyed that cult and started the religion of the Supreme Creator God, who is not the moon god" to 'there never was any moon cult'??

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Perhaps a better question to ask directly of Muslims is "Do you truly believe that Allah is Yehwah (the Jewish/Christian God)?"

No they dont , thats why the deny Jesus has the son of God. And specially because JEsus came as a Jew, and Allah demnds the "extermination" of ALL Jews. Thats because Allah knows the Jews are the Ppl of Yah ...

Kroan does not say to exterminate the Jews
it says to respect the people of book (ie: Cristians and Jews)

Originally posted by BaastetNoir

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Perhaps a better question to ask directly of Muslims is "Do you truly believe that Allah is Yehwah (the Jewish/Christian God)?"

No they dont

Uhmmm
Yes we do.

There is only one God. That God created the universe, Earth, Adam and Eve, he saved Noah, spoke to Moses, chose Jews to be saved from the pharao, gave them the promise land, created Jesus, sent Qur'an to Mohammad and will judge us all on Judgement Day.

We just use a different terminology, for example we do not refer to Jesus as "Son of God" because to us that doesn't make sense. The limited corporeal humans have sons and daughters. The almighty God has creations.

Originally posted by Nygdan
True, but I can't imagine, having never seen any of these things myself however, that they were completely successful and that there aren't at a minimum artefacts in the surrounding areas.

Hahaha... you overestimate the saudi interest in art and history (that doesn't relate to Islam). Early Muslims were very much against any sort of drawings or sculptures. So instead, Muslim artists turned to caligraphy. Now there is ALOT of that in Mecca. Perhaps Jakes next accusation will be that the arabic script is moon pagan inspired .

Originally posted by Nygdan
Also, the kabba itself is something that I am taking as a 'symbol' too.

You already explained this yourself ("echo to the past" bit). Muslims believe that Abraham built it, because the Earths 1st place of worship (as built by Adam) was originally on that site.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Also, considering that Makkah is closed to non-muslims, how is it possible to know if it has moon god symbols anyway?

I'd think that muslim scholars would report on it if it were there.
But you are right, I've never been to mecca, and couldn't actually know, I just think it'd be strange if there weren't actual relics from that era lying around, even excluding the kabba.

I haven't heard of 'em, you haven't heard of 'em, no muslims I have heard of have heard of 'em. Perhaps you would ask my friend jake where he got the idea, since he has put me on ignore.

Originally posted by jake1997Each new human is born with that original sin because flesh is corrupt. The wages of that sin is death.

Every new human? Really now? We will refer back to your statement later.

If it were possible for one human to never sin..and not be born with that original sin...then that one person could make atonement.

As will this statement of yours will be repeated at the end, because it is important that you learn to think before you type.

Jesus Christ is born of the Holy Spirit.

He was born, yes? And born in the flesh, yes? Of a human woman, yes? I will save you the time and answer all three of those for you with one the only answer to all..Yes.

Refer back to your first quote. Jesus was flesh, he was therefore corrupt. he too qualifies as having carried that ridiculous notion of original sin because he was born in the flesh of a fleshy human, Mary, who herself for all intents and purposes, inherited that idea of original sin. Therefore, all the claims that he was sinless is nothing but a lie, a big fat lie. Actually it is stupid.

He is the kinsman redeemer.

Established above, he was a sinner, he cannot redeem anyone therefore.

Because he is sinless...then he is not under the law.

As per you above, "If it were possible for one human to never sin..and not be born with that original sin...then that one person could make atonement." Since he was in human flesh, born of a human woman, he, according to you, qualifies as one of these; "Each new human is born with that original sin because flesh is corrupt." And is therefore corrupt. It is not possible for Mary or any other human, no matter how virginal they may be, to be devoid of original sin according to Christian theology.

Those under the law cannot overcome it. Jesus is not under the law.

He was indeed under the law, he was tried and put to death under law.

Jesus dies for the wages of sin. All those who are of His 'family' are not under the law.

This means also his ancestry all the way back to David, and every descendent of david, which means that all Jews to this day who share in his ancestry are according to you, not under the law. They have no need therefore to be genuflecting to their family.

Jesus also rose from the grave.

Did you witness this?

He promised that everyone who followed him will also rise.

he also promised his disciples they would see him come again, unless they can see while they sleep, his promise failed.

Sin is defeated. Death has lost its sting.

Then why is baptism still practiced?

The forst prophecy about Christ happened in Genesis.

Only to those who have vivid imaginations.

The people who stepped off the ark had Gods promise too.

Yes they did, and since we are all descendents of Noah and his progeny, every single man, woman and child inherit that promise, not a select few.

Gods story PRECEDED the others.

Which God, Amun, Ra or Aten? They took turns you know, the Greeks just called him Jesus.

You can twist the words any way you like. It only reveals what is inside of you, not what is inside the bible.

Ugh, and yet again a thread falls to a ridiculous discussion between people who both think they understand what they do not understand.


Let's not do this.

Originally posted by Jakko
Ugh, and yet again a thread falls to a ridiculous discussion between people who both think they understand what they do not understand.

Thats what this thread started as, christians, not undestanding islam, trying to demonstrate that Allah is the devil.

But you are right, the thread is gettign off topic,

the topic is : Allah being Hubal, pro and con arguements and supplementary discussions.

Originally posted by Jakko
Ugh, and yet again a thread falls to a ridiculous discussion between people who both think they understand what they do not understand.

I don't play poker, but I know an ante when I see one, and that ante came after mine and Jake's post, so rather than be vague with your condescension, do tell, what is it that I do not understand?

And Nygdan, as for the topic, one can only expect to be stringently faithful to a topic if one cannot understand that every issue has underlying factors and related demographics. Such is the nature of debate and discussion after all, unless one is just looking to exercise control and limit discussion. Such is the modus operandi of power-trippers.



[edit on 5/19/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Somewhereinbetween, the basics in christianity have to be understood in order to talk about it like you attempt to.
You ask jake all these complex question and attempt to strike his explanation down with oneliners, but your oneliners just reveal a lack of understanding to me.

Your talk about the "ridiculous notion" of all flesh being sinful, about Jesus, about baptism, sure I can try to explain it, but looking at how you discuss this with jake I am not sure wether I want that.

I have had that kind of discussion too much on ATS, with worse types then yourself, and usually it doesn't lead anywhere, except to make the thread go off topic in a pretty pertinent way.

Nygdan, that has to be the most ridiculous post you ever posted.
Christians trying to demonstrate that Allah is the devil?
You truly didn't understand one thing of the first few posts, did you?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Such is the nature of debate and discussion after all, unless one is just looking to exercise control and limit discussion. Such is the modus operandi of power-trippers.

I explicitly stated that supplementary discussions are AOK. But debating the nature of christianity unrelated to this Allah equals Hubal bit is, plainly, off topic.

Nygdan, that has to be the most ridiculous post you ever posted.
Christians trying to demonstrate that Allah is the devil?
You truly didn't understand one thing of the first few posts, did you?

The Opening Post

To me it is quite a revelation to find out that the Allah as we know it today, is actually the god that people first worshipped under the names Baal and Hubal

And then later in the thread there was talk that Baal is the devil. I do understand the posts. Must it be that fine of a point that its Baal, but not strictly speaking the Devil??

Originally posted by Nygdan
And then later in the thread there was talk that Baal is the devil. I do understand the posts. Must it be that fine of a point that its Baal, but not strictly speaking the Devil??

Argh, it must be crappy to hear this, but I really expected you to be able to "summarize" a thread in a better way than that.
If this thread was about "Christians trying to demonstrate that Allah is the devil", this thread would be one big crap-thread.

Anyways I'm glad you're wrong and that the thread is about more than just what your selective mind picks together out of a few posts.

At least it's clear what you think of christianity in general eh?

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Nygdan
And then later in the thread there was talk that Baal is the devil. I do understand the posts. Must it be that fine of a point that its Baal, but not strictly speaking the Devil??

Argh, it must be crappy to hear this, but I really expected you to be able to "summarize" a thread in a better way than that.
If this thread was about "Christians trying to demonstrate that Allah is the devil", this thread would be one big crap-thread.

Anyways I'm glad you're wrong and that the thread is about more than just what your selective mind picks together out of a few posts.

At least it's clear what you think of christianity in general eh?

Slightly off topic, but I couldn't resist correcting a commonly misunderstood notion that is carried through this and every other vs. Christianity thread. Any "god" who is not known by the name of Jesus Christ, according to Christian doctrine, is a false god and a type of a BAAL/BAEL: bar none!!!

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Consequently, if your God is named "Allah" or "elohiym" (in the old testament used for just about everyhintg including for "false gods") or anything else, according to Christian doctrine your God is not the God of the Bible. Islam rejects the One God Jesus Christ, Jewry rejects the God Jesus Christ (see Talmud Bavli), and even sects of Christianity deny the God Jesus Christ through polytheism (Trinity).

Talking about names, what's in the name of "Jesus Christ"? Here's a write up i did a few weeks ago:

*********************

The Gospel of Jesus Christ has essentially one premise: Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life: and there is none other. And all of the scriptures attest to this. Here are a few of the key verses:
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Roms.10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The name of the One God, Jesus Christ is lost in doctrines, dogma, and tradition. Your average "Christian" will not be able to answer this. And that is very unfortunate, because the key to the one premise of the Gospel, is understanding the name: Jesus the Christ:

1. Jesus

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
"Jesus" is the spiritual being, Spirit, Savior, Everlasting Father, the One LORD, the Great I AM Saves! Here's the homework: The Greek word for Jesus is "Iesous" (Strongs 2424) which is of Hebrew Origin "Joshua" or Hebrew "Y@howshuwa`" (Strongs 03091) which is 2 words combined: [[["Y@hovah" (Strongs 03068): which is from Hebrew "hayah" (Strongs 01961) which is the primitive word for the great "I AM"]]] AND[[["yasha`" (Strongs 03467) which means to save, be saved, be delivered)]]] Use the strong's to find out how each of these is used. Here's some verses which combines both parts, "Y@hovah" and "yasha`": "Exd 14:30 Thus the LORD ("Y@hovah") saved (yasha`) Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. Exd 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses." And again: "Psa 20:6 Now know I that the LORD ("Y@hovah") saveth (yasha`) his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand. And again: "Deu 20:4 For the LORD ("Y@hovah") your God [is] he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save (yasha`) you." And again: "Deu 33:29 Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people saved (yasha`) by the LORD ("Y@hovah"), the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places." And again: "1Sa 14:23 So the the LORD ("Y@hovah") saved (yasha`) Israel that day: and the battle passed over unto Bethaven." And again: "Psa 18:3 I will call upon the LORD ("Y@hovah"), [who is worthy] to be praised: so shall I be saved (yasha`) from mine enemies." And again: "1Sa 17:47 And all this assembly shall know that the LORD ("Y@hovah") saveth (yasha`) not with sword and spear: for the battle [is] the LORD'S ("Y@hovah"), and he will give you into our hands." And again: "Psa 3:7 Arise, O LORD ("Y@hovah") ; save (yasha`) me , O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies [upon] the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly." And again: "Psa 6:4 Return, O LORD ("Y@hovah") , deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake." And Just ONE more, of the so many in pslams: "Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD ("Y@hovah") shall save (yasha`) me."

2. The Christ
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
"Christ" is the vehicle and operation which is "MAN" and "MESSIAH"
Let's look at the Greek: "Christ" is from Greek Christos (Strongs 5547) and means "Annointed" or "Messiah". From Greek "Chrio" (Strongs 5548) which means "to annoint". This is always used for a human or "Son of Man", who is "annointed" or as Strong's words it means "consecrating Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with the necessary powers for its administration" Biblical references for this include these verses, which show that "humans" can be annointed as well: "2Cr 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed (Chrio) us, [is] God; 2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." and "Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed (Chrio) thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." BUT in this case, in the Name, the man Jesus was annointed: "Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed (Chrio) me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

In the Old Testament, the word for "Christ" was the hebrew "mashach" (Strongs 04886), which means: to smear, anoint, spread a liquid. Here's an example of "annointment" in the OT:

"Exd 40:15 And thou shalt anoint (mashach) them, as thou didst anoint (mashach) their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing (mashach) shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations."

2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David , Thou [art] the man . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel , I anointed (mashach) thee king over Israel , and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And finally, the anointment of Jesus, as prophesied by Isaiah:
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed (mashach) me to preach good tidings unto the meek ; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted , to proclaim liberty to the captives , and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound ;

The key to note is that ultimately God anoints "son of man". Look at 2 Samuel verse, The LORD God of Israel anointed David (man), then Isaiah prophesied of Jesus also that The Lord hath anointed Him. This is a very important part of His Holy Name, because it is the key to know that Jesus walked on earth in flesh as "son of man", who was anointed, hence "Christ":
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The very term "Son of Man" attests to birth in flesh:
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Jhn 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
Jhn 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
Jhn 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Jhn 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Jhn 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Consequently, the significance of Christ is that whomever that designation is given, it attests to: Son of Man (human or "adam" in OT) is annointed by God. And Jesus, as described below means The Great I AM Saves. So believing that Jesus is the Christ, is believing that the Great I AM, came in anointed Flesh. Jesus, by being Christ - gave us Grace, by fulfilling the Laws of the Flesh (given in OT) in flesh:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
And it is given to none other, than Jesus – our Christ.

3. Jesus The Christ:
So he is JESUS "THE" CHRIST:
Mt 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Which in essence means: The Lord, the Great I AM saves in the annointed "man", and which is why:
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

And re-affirmed:
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So, there's actually everything in the name of Jesus Christ, which is not, as Trinitarians preach, just the name of the Son (i.e. www.sbc.net... or www.osbc.org... ) but is the name of our One Lord and God:

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Psa 72:19 And blessed [be] his glorious name ***for ever***: and let the whole earth be filled [with] his glory; Amen, and Amen.

*********************

Anyways, the point:
Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Jhn 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil,, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jhn 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.


1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Allah is Baal because you beleive so, great.

actually...its because it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck...


EDIT: Maybe I shouldnt have said that...and now the topic will get side tracked onto ducks.



[edit on 20-5-2005 by jake1997]

Originally posted by JakkoYou ask jake all these complex question and attempt to strike his explanation down with oneliners, but your oneliners just reveal a lack of understanding to me.

This is ATS where members often brag about the knowledge base and leading edge of this piece of digital space, therefore the questions should be complex. Now how can my questions be complex and lack understanding at the same time? I read from that your inability to understand the fundamentals behind same which causes you to rely on paradoxical statements akin to that which you make above. I asked him a question, but in what is either your convoluted train of thought or some servile self-defense mechanism, you choose to delineate from the point and veer down some sarcastic, back-handed tangent aimed at me personally and not my rebuttal. Show me what you are made of and respond topically rather than employ such infantile games. When can I expect your answer to the question I asked of you previously?

Your talk about the "ridiculous notion" of all flesh being sinful, about Jesus, about baptism, sure I can try to explain it, but looking at how you discuss this with jake I am not sure wether I want that.

Please do explain, rather than suggest you can. You have only your own inadequacy and lack of knowledge to fear.

I have had that kind of discussion too much on ATS, with worse types then yourself, and usually it doesn't lead anywhere, except to make the thread go off topic in a pretty pertinent way.

I am supposed to be licking some wounds now? Now turn your statement around and understand that I feel exactly the same way about the likes of those such as you.

Nygdan- I explicitly stated that supplementary discussions are AOK.

That was not in the post of yours I quoted

Thats what this thread started as, christians, not undestanding islam, trying to demonstrate that Allah is the devil.

So forgive me if I did not read your earlier post claiming such, since I do not read every response as I peruse a thread.

But you are right, the thread is gettign off topic,

You posted 4 times within the first 24 hours of Jake taking this thread off topic, but said nothing of same. That qualifies as acceptance in my book of common law, and within that time, you furthered and therefore promoted the topic expansion with statements such as;

Christianity, itself, is loaded with pagan origins and paganistic materials. The passion of christ, the suffering, crucifixtion, death, resurrection…

Roman Catholics belive in jesus, the saviour, and the triune godhead….

I don't think anyone is disputing that Christianity…

Catholics worship christ, the triune godhead, and that is all. That is what is required to be a christian, Catholics are christians…

The catholic church didn't exist in 325.

So all christians who are not peacful are bad christians then right?

And you'd think that christian apostates would make a good source of biblical information for muslims?

So jesus was a prophet and not divine, according to you?

And this was just from one post. As a moderator you command a one-sided power over posters, but example is best expressed by practicing what you preach.

Originally posted by jake1997
actually...its because it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck...

Bible's Yahweh: creates first humans, they are called Adam and Eve.
Qur'an's Allah: creates first humans called Adam and Eve.

Bible's Yahweh gets angry at Sodom and Gomorah, kills them all.
Quran's Allah gets angry at Sodom and Gomorah, kills them all.

Bible's Yahweh decides to save Noah and his family from the flood, tells him to build a boat and save a bunch of plants and animals too.
Quran's Allah decides to save Noah and his family from the flood, tells him to build a boat and save a bunch of plants and animals too.

etc, etc, etc.

Same stories, same names.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Mohammad goes to Mecca, smashes ALL pagan statues and forces people to worship the same god that the Jews and Christians worship. Those are the words used. The SAME god they worship. Stop worshipping Hubal and other pagan statues, start worshiping this other entity already worshiped by Jews and Christians. That is the TRUE god, and not the ones you worship now.
Hundreds of times in Quran god says that there is no other god but the God who created Adam, saved Noah, sent Jesus, etc, etc. There is NO OTHER God but that God.

Allright somewhere, here we go...

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Refer back to your first quote. Jesus was flesh, he was therefore corrupt. he too qualifies as having carried that ridiculous notion of original sin because he was born in the flesh of a fleshy human, Mary, who herself for all intents and purposes, inherited that idea of original sin. Therefore, all the claims that he was sinless is nothing but a lie, a big fat lie. Actually it is stupid.

First of all calling the concept of humans being corrupt a ridiculous notion makes me wonder wether you have ever watched a news bulletin.
People in all places, in all situations and with all backgrounds seem to make harsh mistakes in their lives, regardless of wether they regret them or not (they usually do).
I am not just talking about the cheating lovers and corrupt power- and moneyhungry politicians, but about a general nature of humanity that makes us very vulnarable to giving in to temptation on all levels, hurting other people and in the end hurting ourselves.

Now with the above quote you attempt to explain why Jesus being sinless makes no sense next to the claim of the flesh being corrupted. With this statement you automaticly assume that jesus was just that; a human.
That your flawed logic makes you come to flawed conclusions is logical, but to a lot of people in this world, Jesus was sinless because of that one huge difference between Jesus and humans, Jesus was God in human-form.

There is no contradiction, there is just that one exception to the concept of humans being corrupt and that exception is Jesus. He is Jesus because he IS that exception.

Established above, he was a sinner, he cannot redeem anyone therefore.

You can not say He was a sinner unless you can actually point out a point in the bible where he sinned. You base this statement on something you 1. do not understand and 2. think is a ridiculous notion.
It's either A or B somewhere, your double opinion makes no sense.

He was indeed under the law, he was tried and put to death under law.

You have no idea what the word law means in this context.
"He was not under the law" means that in order for the ultimate justice to apply to His life, there was nothing at all he had to be punished for.
There was no condemnation over His life because there were no actions to condemn.

This means also his ancestry all the way back to David, and every descendent of david, which means that all Jews to this day who share in his ancestry are according to you, not under the law. They have no need therefore to be genuflecting to their family.

This time you (willingly?) misunderstand the word family.
Family means (in this case) christians.

Did you witness this?

The problem here is that you do not WANT to see why Jesus may have actually been the Messiah after all.
Your ignorant rethorical questions that you allready know the answer to are not the best way to discus and to learn from eachother, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Then why is baptism still practiced?

The symbol of the ultimate choice, that's what baptism is.
It's not required to become a christian, neither the one thing that makes it all right. It's the visual symbol of saying "yes" to the offer Jesus offers you, washing you clean of sin.

Only to those who have vivid imaginations.

I am afraid you're making less and less sense now, the prophecies about the miessiah are as evident as they are clear, if you do not believe in the OT then they may not mean much to you, but if you do then you HAVe to at least assume there are some very "coincidental" connections to be found between the life of Jesus and the prophecies in the OT.

Which God, Amun, Ra or Aten? They took turns you know, the Greeks just called him Jesus.

I think you know the answer to this one yourself somewhere, I think in many cases the problem is just that you are unwilling to look at things in an objective way.
Maybe you can not look at this in an objective way due to your past, but explaining things to you over and over may not be what you need.