The efficiency of suicide

I know this is supposed to be a place where well formulated ideas and questions are to go. But many times in life i've found that raw and instinctual action can sometimes place us close to answers for questions we are yet to form.

When one feels disgust with one's self, or a weight looking at the number of steps to come, one contemplates ending their life. When this "instinct" (spiritual survival?) presents itself to young adults, it is from a desire to escape pain, to end painful circumstance. However as the young adult moves closer to adulthood, this changes from a wish to escape into a wish to know.

The youth feels that suicide will draw the finality and attention to pain that is required.

The adult feels that suicide will call a powerful transition to another unknown way of life.

Both know that they will move a great distance on the board.

My first question is: Why is suicide instinctual? Is the spirit's life threatened from excessive pain?

Suicide by definition (beyond the obvious) is pain outweighing copeing measures. That is that; total tolerance for pain is overrun and a desire to end sensory recption sets in.

For me it is quite different. My wish to "die" comes from my knowledge of somthing after this life. I belive that death at an elevated state of awareness permits another life to begin with memory (soul) of previous experiance to remain. However death at a blind and ignorant state, one might say depressive, is a true death as it is thought of. Sencory recption of almost all forms is cut off, and the basic elements of that life are recycled into a "lower" life form to begin again. More or less death is a portal either backwards or forwards depending on the desire and understanding of the life in question.

Therefore. Suicide can be either a positve, progressive action, or a negitive, regressive action.

Question two: If i kill myself with the desire and intention of learning more sooner, (steming from my understanding of how useless i am to the universe with my current knowldge) will i move forward into a new life?

Basicly i wish to know if willful acention is acceptable to you who love me. Us all knowing that my position in life right now is potentially more destructive to the ballance than it is ballancing. (i'm about a -9 right now)

Or am i to find a +9 to duel with for the next 4 decades? Must we be comets, smashing into eachother just so that one day we will stop?

You have not possibly explored everything on this world or in this life. Until you have talked to every person, been to every inch of this world, you are not done here yet. We will all die, this is given... so we all have a limited time to explore here, to be here. Real truth comes from knowledge and understanding so take every second you can while HERE to do it.

Death will come and before you see all of this world. Don't rush the process to go see whats after death because you can never come back to the things you left behind.

oh, and to answer your questions:

My first question is: Why is suicide instinctual? Is the spirit's life threatened from excessive pain?

It is not instinctual in everyone. Some people do not have the ability to suffer pain and therefore would rather die. Others will live on even with no hope of improvment or escaping the pain. Pain s part of this life, and embracing that pain and learning about it is what we do.

If i kill myself with the desire and intention of learning more sooner, (steming from my understanding of how useless i am to the universe with my current knowldge) will i move forward into a new life?

No one knowns what comes after this life, its very much still in debate. However, I'd point out that you can only be usless to this universe if you are also useless to yourself. Don't be. Go out and learn. Go out tomorrow, find a rock you have never seen before and contemplate how it was made and what it has been through... or, go find some who needs help, and help them.

Look man, you can be as valuable as anyone else here. You are the one who will make yourself who you are, you are the creator of your own destiny. If you are unhappy about where you are headed, then make a decision to change that. This is well within your power to do, you are the one who makes your life good or bad. And you have tons you can learn about here and now. Tons of things you can contribute to and be a part of. Jump in the game and play.

Troy

On a long enough time line the survival rate of everyone is zero,

Im sure you've heard that one before.

Suicide as an instinct? I could buy that...its common enough in everyone. I have even talked / thought about it, especially when I was younger.

If you want an easy ticket to the next level, there really isn't one. If you're searching for something like that, being alive or dead doesn't help you understand it any better. Might as well make use of the body while you have it.

Some people need to have other "answers"....and thats where the plants come into play, they've been used by humans since the beginning of time for just such a purpose. So in the spirit of keeping it simple, and after lots of "experiences", one comes to mind here... I truly believed that I died once, and the joy that I felt when I realized that I was actually alive is answer enough for me.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by benign]

i understand your desire to help me out, and i thank you.
But the point i didn't quite make clear enough is that out of all the things the world has to offer me, to pick up, learn on, and become an expert in (so i may act a sheperd in that feild)

Death. The point where transition takes place. This is such a constant and unshakable part of our existance that i find a certian peace to it. I'd almost go as far to say that i want to witness people dieing/changing.

I think my love of death is a rare thing, and it may be hard to relate to, but who is to say that the classroom is closed once the human body is shutdown.

Also, what good is learning anything if it must be learned again and again and again by generation after generation of life? With the answers to "what to do next" deep in the past. How am I, is anyone to expect to find enlightenment in the future.

A word of warning, if you have something left to do in this life, you will not die.
Don't mame yourself trying too.

Now "suicide instinct", this is actually chemical imbalance. When your brain chemicals dip below a required amount, any sense of wonder and joy, hope and desire, leave you. Your brain can not process the correctly to feel the emotional fullfillment you need to keep going.
Day after day, this eats away at the will to live.

In the end it is your choice, but remember, if at first you don't succeed, its probably not meant to be, get help to keep on going until your dying day comes on its own.

don't kill yourself.

This 'idea' of killing yourself while in an 'elevated state of mind' to get to a 'higher state of afterlife' ispreposterous, unprovable, and hardly worth the risk. I strongly suspect that the universe doesn't operate in such a silly way anyway.

If you have any consideration at all for anyone around you, then you won't kill yourself. If the universe involves 'higher levels' etc, etc, than surely it doesn't

1. permit people to get their by killing themselves on a poorly (or even thoroughly)conceived thought
   
2. reward a suicide for having made so many other people suffer at their loss
   

As far as comet crashing into each other, "Life is terrible, but it isn't serious", no? So why worry about it? Also, people go thru stages, wherein they have bad times and good times, even if only relatively speaking. The 'ennuis' and doledrom of life is almost certainly a pure joy compared to the squeaking and gibbering of the dead, and rationally better than oblivion. Even if not, what does it matter? Life is short, especially compared to the vast stretches of non-life after death and before birth. It passes nearly instantaneously as is, why rush it?

No sense in trying to rationalize it by pretending you are going to get rewarded for killing yourself or dying in a certain state.

The religions I've studied indicate that suicides are not advanced forward, but instead move backwards in the afterlife and in incarnations. Part of the reason is because of the harm they do to others -- they incur a burden because of others' pain. Even casual friends can be deeply troubled by it (we had a suicide in an online MUD about two months ago, and I have spent time counseling some of the man's friends and his acquaintances.)

I am not sure if the others' pain incurs a debt on the suicide's soul. But I do know from ghost studies and other studies that the answer to your question is "no"... they don't seem to go on as quickly as others.

Why is suicide instinctual? Is the spirit's life threatened from excessive pain?

Suicide is not instinctual, as humans we all have a drive to survive. It's natures way of assuring survival of the race (the human race). Humans are born with built in "stay alive at all cost" way of thinking. That way of thinking sometimes gets dimmer and dimmer as a result of enviorment and experiences that a person is exposed to over a period of time. Some people hack it better than others and have more will power...others don't and end thier life....but only after that "stay alive at all cost" way of thinking has been dimenished to almost nothing.

That is why suicide is not instinctual.

Life's a garden...dig it man, just dig it.

there is so much out there, even things that cannot be seen or fathomed in the afterlife......

[edit on 9/5/2005 by SportyMB]

Thank you all for shareing all this with me. It's interesting to see how the idea of death can spur us on to help shed light in areas we ourselves may have little more that gut feelings about.

I may as well shift the discussion a bit, It was never a question of, should i kill myself, it was just thought gathering. I've asked and answered this questin more than a few times from more than a few levels of neuro chemistry.

About three months ago my mood dropped dramaticly. My brother fighting in Iraq, my feelings on war, my feelings for my brother, and then, a further discovery of my uselessness to effect change regardless of intentions or effort.

I wished to leave.

I collapsed outside of our local emergancy room haveing been put in a triage line up for simply wishing to speak to someone. With great emotion i cried to the heavens to shower the war torn reigons of this earth with love and forgivness, from the # dusted city of Mosul to the inner cortex of the most shamful and depreved creatures.

I was willing to leave.

A "telepathic" confifmation of this decision was made between me and the heavens. I was asked twice. When my final answer was to go i started to leave my body. slowly.

With each process of shutdown the various parts of my body went through, i would be asked for a confirmation again and again in this manner.

First my breathing was rapid, then my hands clawed and stopped reciving neurological connections. My vision was turrning into a snowstorm like image of several hundred thousand concious creatures, all in full swing. I felt the tickle in my bowls as their system came to face the shutdown procedure.

I couldn't be found with crap in my pants. Regardless of the untaught discovery that one can end their life with will power alone, i could not be found urine soaked a few meters away from a hospital gurny.

At that instand the heavens giggled at my desire to live on. and began restoring power to my moter functions.

This is the experiance that has lead to this idea/thred.

Any of you had anything like this come upon you?
I'll answer any questions in lenght, i'm just rushing to go see a movie right now.

heh, if life's not good enough you can always catch a flick.

thank you again.

This is a world set on survival, and that's what I think you should do. I'm not buying into the "I'm useless" non-sense you talk. Because, you know what? You are needed in this world. For example, you could be out doing something to better the world, and this is allways in demand. You do have a use in this world, go out and find it.

Troy

Whoever you are, wherever you are, somebody needs you.

But on the idea of suicide being progressive - it is actually considered a crime in some religions. Ironic realy, as it cant be punished once comitted. But therefore (by their standars, obviously) it is anything but progressive.

~*~*~LoveForTheArts~*~*~

One thing I do know, and that's that every major religion treats suicide as having some SERIOUS negative issues in ANY afterlife.

One of my best friends committed suicide, eventually I married his widow. All I know is that any method I've tried when attempting to contact those who've passed on....NOBODY was willing to try and reach those who met their ends this way (suicide)....nor would they even speak of what happens to them. That's from the horse's mouth my friend... I don't know if any religion is right, etc., but I do know one thing....suicide has some bad repercussions in the afterlife friend....seriously bad, and it sure as hell isn't a ticket to a higher spiritual plane....

Any entity telling you this is feeding you a line of crap. Don't find out the hard way, as you won't like the answer, nor will there be anything you can do about it once you're there...you're just screwed....

When should you die?

This question has been on my mind for some time and things like the Terri S case has just made me think of it more.

Suicide for enlightenment is a joke but there are other reasons that play a part in if you should chose to die by your own hand.

Quality of life is IMO the greatest one. In my own case I live in extreme crippling pain that grows worse by the day. I will never get better and the best I can hope for barring a medical Miracle is to slow the progression down. I have went from a VERY physical person, Martial Arts, avid outdoorsman, Biker, etc to someone that needs help to get out of the chair.

There is not ONE day that goes by that I do not feel like putting a gun in my mouth.


You live as a child for yourself but as you grow older you live for others too. By the time you reach my age your life is an example for those that come after you. This pain is meager to that I would cause those that love me by taking the easy way out. Should I show those that have looked up to me all their lives I am a coward and cant handle a little pain? That my "comfort" is more important then my time with them? Should I show them their feelings mean NOTHING to me?

Your life is not about just YOU.

Its about Duty, Commitment, Honor, Living by Example, Family, etc.

THESE things matter, not the fact you hurt a little or that your girlfriend ran off with your best friend or they canceled Futurama.

They cancelled Futurama!!!???


*starts tying a noose...*

either life is simply random and therefore really only good for the purposes of self-amusement, thusly suicide's only drawback is the emotion fallout of those around you, or life is intentional and beautiful. a score of which melodies and harmonies, although too complex for our physical ears to interpret, are also too beautiful, in all it's tragedy and love, for us to see from our temporarily limited perspective. everything in it's own time.
daved

Go rent "What Dreams May Come"... It was obviously made by someone in the "know" of such things.....

My question is.....

does it count to "suicide" on your death bed, as in "hurrying it up a bit"?

I would say that its ok IMO.

I wish I knew the answer Amuk...

I'm actually pro right to die, but personally, I couldn't consciously make that decision with what I've learned, for myself.

Another example, what about a guy who throws himself in the line of fire to save another life? Surely no negative karma for such a sacrifice?

Again, I really don't know. I didn't have the foresight to ask more specific questions at the time, and the idea of going back to such methods of learning is not very appealing.

My own feelings are that it really depends on the mindset of the one doing so, at the time. If truly for unselfish reasons, I can't see the same result being applicable. That's why the dignified death idea is hard to guage though. Technically, it's selfish, but at the same time, loved ones must also see you in constant pain and suffering, so it's a real dicey one. I'd like to think that such circumstances would not warrant the same end result as intentionally just trying to "get away from it all".....