Are JW's and Mormons accepted into Freemasonry?

I am aware that the key to being to be a Mason is a belief in a "Higher Power". Both Jehovah's Witnesses and The Mormons have this. This is not whether they would want to join, 99.99% wouldn't. What about that .01%. Is there anything preventing these people from becoming Masons?

No, except in themselves.

Why would there be a barrier?

Originally posted by intrepid
I am aware that the key to being to be a Mason is a belief in a "Higher Power". Both Jehovah's Witnesses and The Mormons have this. This is not whether they would want to join, 99.99% wouldn't. What about that .01%. Is there anything preventing these people from becoming Masons?

Absolutely not. Mormonism was founded by Freemasons, actually. Originally, they incorporated many of Freemasonry's rituals into their religion, until the Grand Lodges complained and had them remove it.

But John Smith and Brigham Young were both masons, albeit unliked by the rest of the fraternity.

But there is nothing that prevents Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses from becoming Masons... except I think that Jehova's Witnesses' are so controlling that they would probably be restricted by their own church, much like Catholics

(looks into his hat)

wait... wait... I'm seeing something...


(pulls face out of his hat)


www.freemason.org...

[edit on 8-5-2005 by Lysergic]

Originally posted by Lysergic
(looks into his hat)

wait... wait... I'm seeing something...


(pulls face out of his hat)

Hehehe didn't Joseph Smith claim to get his visions from a hat or something like that?!?

That was a good link, by the way. I like how it says that Joseph Smith tried giving out the Grand Hailing sign of Freemasonry as he was killed. Like anyone would have come to help him...

Yeah, and only he could read it, but inside of hat, and I believe texts were switched on him? I only know what southpark tells me

Originally posted by Lysergic
I only know what southpark tells me

Ah, a compehensive source.

I saw that too, bloody hillarious.

I know Mormon Masons personaly......

Joseph Smith & Brigham Young were both Masons........

Masonic sign ALL over the Mormon temples................



Dunno what you mean by JW..........

Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
Dunno what you mean by JW..........

My mistake really. A lot of people think that they're simmilar due to the door to door thing.

I don't know much about JWs (Jehovah's Witnesses) but I'm a Mormon, so I do know something about them, hehe.

sebatwerk said

Absolutely not. Mormonism was founded by Freemasons, actually. Originally, they incorporated many of Freemasonry's rituals into their religion, until the Grand Lodges complained and had them remove it.

But John Smith and Brigham Young were both masons, albeit unliked by the rest of the fraternity.

Many of Mormonisms founding members were freemasons, including Joseph and Hyrum Smith (there was a John Smith, Joseph's uncle, but I'm pretty sure you are referring to Joseph Smith when you said John) The temple ceremonies in Mormonism (which Mormons don't like to disclose, so I will refer to only generally) have similarities in parts to some Masonic ceremonies. Joseph & Hyrum didn't become freemasons until after they had founded the Mormon church, if that makes any difference to anyone. They joined in Nauvoo, roughly around 1840, if memory serves; I'm too lazy to hunt for a reference, but if someone really wants one, I'll go dig one up.

sebatwerk also said:

Hehehe didn't Joseph Smith claim to get his visions from a hat or something like that?!?

That was a good link, by the way. I like how it says that Joseph Smith tried giving out the Grand Hailing sign of Freemasonry as he was killed. Like anyone would have come to help him...

Some reports do indeed mention the hat thing. I think it was to shut out the light, and he put his seeing stone in the hat and he would see words in it, the translation of the Book of Mormon; he read it out and his scribe at the time (he had several over the translation period) would record the words as he said them.

As for the Grand Hailing sign (haven't heard that term for it) he probably knew it wouldn't work, but when you're faced by an angry mob with guns, you get desperate. Even if the odds were a million to one, go for it, in my opinion.

theRiverGoddess said

I know Mormon Masons personaly......

Joseph Smith & Brigham Young were both Masons........

Masonic sign ALL over the Mormon temples................

Yup, yup, and yup. Again, I'm not too familiar with masonry, but I believe they use the sun/moon/stars in some of their symbology, and also the compass, as we do also.

Mormons are allowed to become Masons if they want to. While there were tons that did in the early days of Mormonism, it isn't so common, anymore. The Mormon church discourages its members from becoming Masons, but there is no rule against it, so they are welcome to do so if they wish, and there definitely are Mormon Masons today, although I don't know any, unless they haven't told me they were Masons. As far as I know, the Masons will take Mormons as long as they meet the criteria everyone else who wants to be a Mason has to meet, i.e. belief in a supreme being, good reputation, etc. As to why the Mormon church discourages it, I strongly suspect it is because they are worried people might question their faith when they see some of the similarities in the ceremonies between Mormonism and Masonry.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
Many of Mormonisms founding members were freemasons, including Joseph and Hyrum Smith (there was a John Smith, Joseph's uncle, but I'm pretty sure you are referring to Joseph Smith when you said John) The temple ceremonies in Mormonism (which Mormons don't like to disclose, so I will refer to only generally) have similarities in parts to some Masonic ceremonies. Joseph & Hyrum didn't become freemasons until after they had founded the Mormon church, if that makes any difference to anyone. They joined in Nauvoo, roughly around 1840, if memory serves; I'm too lazy to hunt for a reference, but if someone really wants one, I'll go dig one up.

I DID mean Joseph Smith, sorry. But I am PRETTY sure that Joe Smith was a mason BEFORE he founded the church. That is why so much masonic ritual and symbolism had been incorporated into the church, because of the influence they had on the founders... no?

Originally posted by sebatwerk
But I am PRETTY sure that Joe Smith was a mason BEFORE he founded the church. That is why so much masonic ritual and symbolism had been incorporated into the church, because of the influence they had on the founders... no?

Actually the Endowment Ceremony was quite plain until they BECAME Masons and liked the ceremonies. So much so that they were heavily borrowed from...some parts verbatim. The current ceremonies have had a lot of the Masonic "borrowings" removed and are quite abbreviated.

This I know from a friend who was a VERY active Mormon (one of the Veil Workers) and a Freemason. He left the church though and has written quite a bit about the endowment ceremonies and the little-known "Second Annointing" Ceremony.

Senrak has it a lot closer than Sebatwerk on this point. When Joseph Smith first introduced the endowment ceremonies, they were quite different from the modern ones, and even from the ones a few years after their introduction. When Smith first introduced them, he also said that the version he was giving people was not complete, and that God would reveal to him a more complete version later, and that is why he made changes in the next few years.

As I understand it, the explanation given by some Mormon apologists as to why portions of the ceremony closely parallel Masonic ritual is that the Masons got their rituals from Solomon's temple, and the Mormon rituals are the same as those, so that both have a common source. I have no idea if this fits with Masonic history, but it is the theory I have come across most frequently in Mormon circles.

I can say with 100% accuracy that a Jehovah Witness will be excommunicated from their church if they join a masonic lodge. Having said that, I would not be surprised to know that some of the JW big-chiefs are Masons. Masonic terms like "great architect of the unvierse", "divine plan of the ages", etc are heard from JW writers and leaders, so who knows.

Comparing the JWs to the Mormon church is like comparing Amway to Walmart.

[BTW, anyone who can assist me in finding a copy of Fritz Springmeyer's book, "The Watchtower and the Masons" would be appreciated...]

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
Senrak has it a lot closer than Sebatwerk on this point.

Well, I am not very knnowledgeable on the subject, just going off what I heard. What you and Senrak state makes sense, though.

As I understand it, the explanation given by some Mormon apologists as to why portions of the ceremony closely parallel Masonic ritual is that the Masons got their rituals from Solomon's temple, and the Mormon rituals are the same as those, so that both have a common source. I have no idea if this fits with Masonic history, but it is the theory I have come across most frequently in Mormon circles.

Masons did not get their rituals from Solomon's temple. The legend of the building of the temple is the basis for most of the rituals, but the rituals themselvevs as we know them today were written by contemporary masons, such as Thomas Smith Webb, so the excuse sounds a little shaky.


[edit on 9-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

The Masons require a person to believe in a "Higher power". The Masons will allow Mormons, JW's, Muslims, just about anyone who passes their requirements provided they do have this belief in a higher power.

Paul

In my experience the Freemasons will have anyone including athiests as long as they submit to their brainwashing (there is no other word for it.)

I know at least half a dozen athiest Freemasons as well as some nuttier types who genuinally profess Wicca and even one guy who claims to be a Jedi, but on the whole most of them are unclassifiable, having their own personal religion as seems more and more common nowadays.

Strangely though, I know very few if any "straight" Christian, Muslem or Budhist Freemasons, the cult seems to prefer targets who do not have a strong religious support environment.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
In my experience the Freemasons will have anyone including athiests as long as they submit to their brainwashing (there is no other word for it.)

I know at least half a dozen athiest Freemasons as well as some nuttier types who genuinally profess Wicca and even one guy who claims to be a Jedi, but on the whole most of them are unclassifiable, having their own personal religion as seems more and more common nowadays.

Oh yeah? If this is true, then please provide names and lodge numbers. We will promptly have them expelled from the fraternity for being atheists. Of course you CAN'T provide them, can you? Because you don't really know ANY Freemasons. Stop lying.

I have a serious question for you Necros: WHY DO YOU LIE SO MUCH ABOUT FREEMASONRY? Did you try to join and were rejected, so now you have a bone to pick? Do you even HAVE a reason for hating Freemasonry to the point that you would blatantly lie about it?


[edit on 19-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
[I have a serious question for you Necros: WHY DO YOU LIE SO MUCH ABOUT FREEMASONRY? Did you try to join and were rejected, so now you have a bone to pick?

I've often thought the same thing. It's not tyhe first time someone who was rejected for Masonic membership wanted to get revenge for being turned down. And Necros' BS certainly sounds like he's got an ax to grind.

Same thing happened with the Spanish Fascist Francisco Franco. He was rejected for membership in Masonry while young. He never forgot it, and when he became dictator of Spain 30 years later, he launched the same old disinfo campaign, followed by anti-Masonic persecution (with a little help from the most notorious anti-Mason of the 20th century, Adolf Hitler).

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by sebatwerk
[I have a serious question for you Necros: WHY DO YOU LIE SO MUCH ABOUT FREEMASONRY? Did you try to join and were rejected, so now you have a bone to pick?

I've often thought the same thing. It's not tyhe first time someone who was rejected for Masonic membership wanted to get revenge for being turned down. And Necros' BS certainly sounds like he's got an ax to grind.

Same thing happened with the Spanish Fascist Francisco Franco. He was rejected for membership in Masonry while young. He never forgot it, and when he became dictator of Spain 30 years later, he launched the same old disinfo campaign, followed by anti-Masonic persecution (with a little help from the most notorious anti-Mason of the 20th century, Adolf Hitler).

Is that right!?!? Wow, I had no idea! That's pretty interesting that Franco was rejected by the fraternity... it explains a lot.

Yeah, unfortunately these are the kinds of people that blame the fraternity for their rejection instead of themselves. They do not understand that their inability to critically look at themselves, to find flaws in themselves, is itself a reason for disqualification from Freemasonry.