It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

SCI/TECH: Significant Weakening Of Gulf Stream Detected

page: 10
1
<< 7  8  9    11  12 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 08:54 PM
link   
Mauddib -

No, sorry.

I'm looking for a site that posts current measurements.

I must have missed Indy's links - and just scanned back, couldn't find them.


Thanks.




posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 09:22 PM
link   
I find it odd that no one on the planet knows for sure how or why Ice Ages occur, yet some how, we can figure out the nuances of the Jet Stream. Maybe another Ice Age is coming, and that's why the Stream is fluctuating. Considering that mankind had nothing to do with previous Ice Ages, how do we factor into the next one?



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 09:41 PM
link   
Well, the following links are a start, since i am not sure exactly which measurements you are asking for, here are links with data and research papers.


www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov...

www.nasa.gov...

www.soc.soton.ac.uk...

www.nasda.go.jp...



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 04:46 AM
link   

Originally posted by soficrow


Uh huh. And in terms of details, I'm thinking about those icebergs off New Zealand, whose meltwater is probably about to enter the Gulf Stream.


.


They're on the other side of the world - they'd need to sail across the Indian Ocean up the South Atlantic and across the Equator to reach the Gulf Stream



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 05:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by khunmoon Take a look at it, and let's get to business.


Each individual should be properly equipped with TA50/camping gear. Basic wilderness survival skills are a must.

The individuals form groups, and each member must specialize in an area, eg. textiles, metallurgy, chemistry, mechanics, farming, carpentry, education, medical, etc. Planning will need to be done to determine the optimum combination of skills depending on the group and area.

Resources shall not be hoarded as stashes will become increasing liabilities to the groups. All resources are to be shared by the group, and the group may use barter with other groups. This barter could consist of materials, skills, or labor.

For smaller groups not yet entrenched mobility will be important. For example, vegetables should be grown in pots for ease of relocation. The foot and hoof will become widely used as vehicles with internal combustion engines become scarce. Wood burning steam engines will be on the rise and produced by very large groups. Once groups are firmly entrenched, defense will become a priority. The largest groups could develop wind, solar, and nuclear power. As barter becomes widespread a market will eventually form, as in a region with rains trading fresh water with another region with electricity. Or fish for metals, whatever the case may be.

We should start our own thread on this. Planning needs to be done now. We may be laughed at, but remember only the strongest will survive. I count myself in that category, and I think you do too. Is anyone else here up to a new thread?



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 07:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by soficrow


Uh huh. And in terms of details, I'm thinking about those icebergs off New Zealand, whose meltwater is probably about to enter the Gulf Stream.


.


They're on the other side of the world - they'd need to sail across the Indian Ocean up the South Atlantic and across the Equator to reach the Gulf Stream


They do. As I understand it all the major global currents are connected...they are the arteries of Gaia. I will try and find a map of them.



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 07:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by grover

They do. As I understand it all the major global currents are connected...they are the arteries of Gaia. I will try and find a map of them.


Well not quite as imple as that. But I guess you;re thinking of the global thermohaline conveyor?





But in any case, you miss the point: these icebergs would have to travel all around the world and over the equator - without melting!!!!!

Oddly enough, they tend to find equatorial waters a tad too warm....

Still, if in a few years they make it to the Caribbean and sail past Florida, I'm happy for you to remind me of how wrong I was



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 08:50 AM
link   
Well I know they'd melt. DUH but that illustration was what I was talking about. Thank you.

Still the influx of large amounts of cold water would have an effect, but I don't think icebergs would do it unless they were the size of states, which does happen.



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 09:16 AM
link   
Essan -

Yes, I was referring to the ocean's thermohaline circulation system - a system of interconnected currents called the Ocean Conveyor.



Abrupt Climate Change: Should We Be Worried?

Scientists have so far identified only one viable mechanism to induce large, global, abrupt climate changes: a swift reorganization of the ocean currents circulating around the earth. These currents, collectively known as the Ocean Conveyor, distribute vast quantities of heat around our planet, and thus play a fundamental role in governing Earth’s climate.

...records of past climates—from a variety of sources such as deep-sea sediments and ice-sheet cores—show that the Conveyor has slowed and shut down several times in the past. This shutdown curtailed heat delivery to the North Atlantic and caused substantial cooling throughout the region. One earth scientist has called the Conveyor “the Achilles’ heel of our climate system.”3





Evaluations of the Ocean Conveyor's stability - and impact on climate - focus on the destabilizing effects of fresh water from melting Arctic ice entering the North Atlantic Current.

BUT - It seems obvious that cold fresh meltwater entering the Ocean Conveyor from the South might also destabilize the system. Huge ice sheets have been breaking off in the Antarctic over the past few years, and may be cooling the normally warm equatorial waters enough to disrupt the process. ...But I don't know, which is why I'm asking for more information.

The only way we could know what's really happening is to measure the temperature of deep ocean water at various points through the whole system. But last I heard, we only take measurements in the North Atlantic Current.



2003: Though we have invested in, and now rely on, a global network of meteorological stations to monitor fast-changing atmospheric conditions, at present we do not have a system in place for monitoring slower-developing, but critical, ocean circulation changes.

The great majority of oceanographic measurements was taken throughout the years by research ships and ships of opportunity—especially during the Cold War era for anti-submarine warfare purposes. Many were taken incidentally by Ocean Weather Stations—a network of ships stationed in the ocean after World War II, whose primary duty was to guide transoceanic airplane flights. Starting in the 1970s, satellite technology superseded these weather ships. The demise of the OWS network and the end of the Cold War have left oceanographers with access to far fewer data in recent years.

Initial efforts to remedy this deficit are under way, but these efforts are nascent and time is of the essence. Satellites can measure wind stress and ocean circulation globally, but only at the ocean surface. Also recently launched (but not nearly fully funded) is the Argo program—an international program to seed the global ocean with an armada of some 3,000 free-floating buoys that measure upper ocean temperature and salinity. Measuring deep ocean currents is critical for observing Conveyor behavior, but it is more difficult. Efforts have just begun to measure deep ocean water properties and currents at strategic locations with long-term moored buoy arrays, but vast ocean voids remain unmonitored.





The North Atlantic Current appears to be shutting down - and did stop for 10 hours in 2004, according to reports. The situation is set up for abrupt climate change.



Scenario 1: Conveyor slows down within next two decades.

Such a scenario could quickly and markedly cool the North Atlantic region, causing disruptions in global economic activity. These disruptions may be exacerbated because the climate changes occur in a direction opposite to what is commonly expected, and they occur at a pace that makes adaptation difficult.

What can we do to improve our future security?

Ignoring or downplaying the probability of abrupt climate change could prove costly. Ecosystems, economies, and societies can adapt more easily to gradual, anticipated changes. Some current policies and practices may be ill-advised and may prove inadequate in a world of rapid and unforeseen climate change. The challenge to world leaders is to reduce vulnerabilities by enhancing society’s ability to monitor, plan for, and adapt to rapid change.




Under the circumstance, I'd say it's critical to have accurate, up-to-date measurements of waters throughout the entire Ocean Conveyor. And a commitment to transparency.


Mauddib - thanks for the links, but they do not appear to fit the bill.


- sofi


Also see:


A Quick Summary

While global warming is being officially ignored by the political arm of the Bush administration, and Al Gore's recent conference on the topic during one of the coldest days of recent years provided joke fodder for conservative talk show hosts, the citizens of Europe and the Pentagon are taking a new look at the greatest danger such climate change could produce for the northern hemisphere -- a sudden shift into a new ice age. What they're finding is not at all comforting.



Ocean Forces Threaten Our Climate



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 09:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by grover

They do. As I understand it all the major global currents are connected...they are the arteries of Gaia. I will try and find a map of them.



Well not quite as imple as that. But I guess you;re thinking of the global thermohaline conveyor?


Hey, where did you dudes get in the thread? The image of the conveyor belt you were looking for I already posted on page 7 at the bottom. More informative, more detailed I would say. Sorry grover, I must have missed your call for it.

Initially I posted it Atlantic Current Halted In 2004
Check it out it's a good thread too.



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 02:06 PM
link   
Icebergs are quite impressive. Television, even movies fail to capture their sheer mass, and the notion that one could be the size of Rhode Island or Connecticut is simply unimaginable to most, and when you consider the majority of their bulk is underwater, then their scale really goes off the map.

When I was in the Coast Guard one of our (meaning the ship I was on, the U.S.C.G.C. Duane #33) duties was each year around the end of March, to go up between Greenland and Labrador for about 6 weeks and do Ice patrol. It was a service started after the sinking of the Titanic. We would prowl the northern sea. Packed ice is extremely hard and due to their size breaking them safely up was/is impossible (and dangerous) and so we'd dye icebergs with different colors of extremely bright day glow paint (true) so that they would be more visible, even at night. The reason being, is that icebergs are rarely bright white, but usually a deep bluish green and even on a clear day can be difficult to spot from a distance, even the towering ones....they just blend right in until they are close enough to rise above the horizon.

It was quite a site to be in a glass calm sea at night with a heaven full of stars and a rainbow of northern lights dancing against the sky, and be surrounded by these massive icebergs with glowing patches of red and yellow and orange.

There is a famous photo of our sister ship, the Campbell underneath the arch of a huge one.



posted on Nov, 18 2006 @ 05:28 PM
link   
.

Anyone else notice that some of our more "passionate" posters here just packed up and disappeared once the UN voted on Kyoto?


Ever feel used? Like a young dumb girl?





posted on Nov, 19 2006 @ 01:07 PM
link   
This looks old, but isn't this one agency that should be held responsible?

It is also my understanding that the US does not ratify the Kyoto Treaty because of exemptions given to China. Recently I saw one of their cities in a video, and it was as smog ridden as some of the worst of our cities in the early sixties. So somehow I don't think our refusal to ratify the treaty should be interpreted as active opposition to enviromental issues.

Is anyone up to starting a "day after" thread with me? I have asked in my previous post and there seems to be little interest (no elephant stampede knocking down my door yet
or should we just wait until the last minute? I can if everyone else wants too...



posted on Nov, 19 2006 @ 02:56 PM
link   
Hold the ice age phone, it's getting hotter and increasing salinity which means a stronger gulf stream and the irony is we are in a solar minimum.


Influence of the Atlantic Subpolar Gyre on the Thermohaline Circulation

The new observations - record-high ocean temperatures and salinity - are ascribed to changes in the circulation of the North Atlantic. They have important implications for the climate in northern Europe. On the one hand, the high salinity of the water masses will secure that the strength of the Gulf Stream system is maintained in the upcoming decades. On the other hand, the high temperatures will enhance the impacts of global warming on the climate of the Northern Hemisphere.



posted on Nov, 19 2006 @ 03:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by Matyas

Originally posted by khunmoon Take a look at it, and let's get to business.


remember only the strongest will survive. I count myself in that category


Actually its survival of the fittest...brains counter-balance brawn just about every day....after all thats how we as a species got where we are today.



posted on Nov, 19 2006 @ 04:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Hold the ice age phone, it's getting hotter and increasing salinity which means a stronger gulf stream and the irony is we are in a solar minimum.


Influence of the Atlantic Subpolar Gyre on the Thermohaline Circulation

The new observations - record-high ocean temperatures and salinity - are ascribed to changes in the circulation of the North Atlantic.



Regenmacher - Can you explain how, exactly, the North Atlantic's circulation changed?

Also - the climate studies I've read tend to focus on weather and climate being erratic during transition periods.

You, on the other hand, seem to suggest that weather and climate are essentially governed by solar activity, and remain stable within that context.

Do I understand you correctly?


.



posted on Nov, 19 2006 @ 08:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by soficrow
You, on the other hand, seem to suggest that weather and climate are essentially governed by solar activity, and remain stable within that context.


The ocean currrents are a lagging indicator. The Gulf stream is probably becoming more turbulent and stiring up the bottom if salinity is increasing that far north, considering we also have record ice melt. Turbulence would explain data anomalies in flow strength also. I don't think we have enough info on global warming and the THC to make a judgement call of what really is going to happen either.

The sun can be stable and we can still have climate change, but if the sun is erractic you can guarantee climate change. After the wacking we got in solar cycle 23 coupled with the atmosphere's dynamics being screwed up with high levels of pollutants, dust and gases...earth getting back into a climatic balance is not going to happen anytime soon.



posted on Nov, 19 2006 @ 10:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Regenmacher

Originally posted by soficrow
You, on the other hand, seem to suggest that weather and climate are essentially governed by solar activity, and remain stable within that context.


The ocean currrents are a lagging indicator. The Gulf stream is probably becoming more turbulent and stiring up the bottom if salinity is increasing that far north, considering we also have record ice melt. Turbulence would explain data anomalies in flow strength also. I don't think we have enough info on global warming and the THC to make a judgement call of what really is going to happen either.

The sun can be stable and we can still have climate change, but if the sun is erractic you can guarantee climate change. After the wacking we got in solar cycle 23 coupled with the atmosphere's dynamics being screwed up with high levels of pollutants, dust and gases...earth getting back into a climatic balance is not going to happen anytime soon.




Thanks RegenMacher.

Do we agree that:

1. Climate change is occurring - for whatever reason?

2. Weather and climate will remain erratic until the system balances, and we will see wild fluctuations involving drought, floods, storms, unseasonable cold and heatwaves in various regions?

3. Greenhouse gases created by human activity contribute substantially to the imbalance?

...Is your main concern here with the suggestion that rapid warming will be followed by rapid cooling (an ice age)? Your point being that we do not know enough to make such a prediction?





posted on Nov, 19 2006 @ 11:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by soficrow
...Is your main concern here with the suggestion that rapid warming will be followed by rapid cooling (an ice age)? Your point being that we do not know enough to make such a prediction?


Looks good to me, Sofi. Although the word "substantially" in regards to anthropogenic influence could be debatable, since in a balanced system it doesn't have to take a substantial amount to tip the scales.

Ice age coming is a roll of the dice or dart board prediction. The trend is still calling warmer weather and greenhouse gases are still increasing. Considering we have never had a world with 6.5 billion people burning billions of tons of fossil fuels at the same time a cosmic dust storm is blowing through the solar system, we don't have much for historical context to draw upon and historical context is what we use to predict weather.

I suppose some folks find more comfort in freezing than cooking, so maybe that is what influences their climate outlook.





[edit on 19-11-2006 by Regenmacher]



posted on Nov, 23 2006 @ 06:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by Relentless
I am surprised at this view of the current stream. It does not strike me as the same as a year or two ago. I think it has changed.

Can anyone post images in one post of the flow from a few years back next to the current flow?

Indy - are you out there? I think you have/had some images from prior years.

[edit on 11/16/2006 by Relentless]


Hey I'm sorry I didn't get this sooner. Things have been really busy around here. First off I can show an image I grabbed from back in June of 2004 before the recording system for the gulf stream velocity was changed to basically make it impossible to really tell how strong the current is.



This image shows no real defined north/south component to the current. Keep in mind this images is about 4-1/2 to 5 months before the reported shutdown of part of the current. I also find it interesting that the month following the shutdown the method for reporting the velocity changed.

Someone had posted a writeup on my site about a change taking place in our oceans which looks like a serious problem.


A thermal inversion is in progress in the oceans. The cold surface water is too fresh to sink in the North Atlantic.

This was predicted by some oceanographers working in the 1990s. It is the signal for the MOC shutdown. The whole MOC will shut down in < 10 years.


Quote Source: www.climatepatrol.com...



new topics

top topics



 
1
<< 7  8  9    11  12 >>

log in

join