The Scientific Method begins by making observations. Can mainstream science turn a blind eye!

Originally posted by lost_shaman
If millions of poeple world wide are reporting U.F.O.'s , and according to Blue Books figures that on Average 22% of these reports are "Unknown", when will we investigate the science behind these reports?

You can try. And people do. But, as Nygdan said, it's hard to study the reports at all. Just about the only thing you can do is try and see ifit's possible for us to replicate the claims, and that doesn't get funding for obvious reasons. (waste of resources)

With this sort of thing, it's a lot more feasible to investigate an actual occurence than to guess wildly.

I was about to force myself to agree , that maybe we don't have a way to study the phenomena. As I couldn't really say how the science could be done.

But then on 5/20/05 , Brazil opens up to the UFO Community. (note this date is also the Ninetenth anniversary of the 1986 UFO flap in Brazil)

Disclosure in Brazil

Two meeting between the civilian UFO researchers and the military took place last Friday, May 20, and firstly happened in the headquarters of the Integrated Center of Air Defense and Air Traffic Control (Centro Integrado de Defesa Aérea e Controle de Trafego Aéreo, Cindacta), a very sensitive facility. During two hours, the researchers were given lectures of the procedures conducted at Cindacta and had the chance to visit air traffic control rooms and understand how UFOs could be detected by the Air Force personnel.

After reading that you have to ask yourself , if the Brazilian Millitary can detect and monitor UFO's , surely the Scientific Community should be able to do this as well!

The ability to make detections , makes Ufology a ligitamate Science out of a previously un-recognized pseudo-science would it not?
I could imagine the SETI crowd avoiding this like the plague, but what about all the other respected members of the Scientific Community , who have been vocal on this subject, pro or con , will they want to be left out of what might possibly be the biggest event in human history?

What in those reports represents anything capable of being studied??

Well I'm no expert at all , but if you can detect an ETV, you can track it , monitor its movements and manuvers, record its speed, get someone on the ground in the area to visually verify the target, make triangulations, and do it all in real time.
All that gives you reliable data you can then begin to study. Most important of all ,in the context of Science , is that detection capabilty can be independantly repeated and verified.

The second and most important meeting took place just after this one at the very reserved facilities of Brazilian Air Defense Command (Comando de Defesa Aerea Brasileiro, Comdabra), an even more sensitive installation that controls the entire air defense situation in the country and surrounding areas of Atlantic Ocean and South America. In this facility the UFO researchers were given full briefing of the top aspects of aerial defense of the country.


It was in this facility that its own commander, brigadier Atheneu Azambuja, admitted to the UFO researchers how concerned the Brazilian military are about the UFO phenomena. Azambuja also gave details of Comdabra procedures and openly admitted that the country has systematically detected and registered UFOs in the country – labeled as “H Traffic” – since 1954. That wasn’t a surprise for the UFO researchers of the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), but how this registering process took place was.

Systematically detected, registered, and labeled as "H Traffic", for 51 years!
If thats true its a very big deal, the ussual reasons given as to why Science can't , or won't be done , just went out the window with the bath water so to speak!

Systematically detected, registered, and labeled as "H Traffic", for 51 years!

But keep in mind that they can't distinguish between what is ET Ufos, regular UFOs, mis-identified objects, secret projects, etc etc.

What can we really say from this information? Lets say that we have a consistent record of 'things' tracked by radar that seem to be moving in unusual ways.

What does that give us? Are they perhaps stealthy jets flitting about? Are they 'radar projections' of objects that don't actually exist?
How can we state anything about them? I'm not saying its 'not worth looking at', but its understandable, considering how difficult real scientific research is under controlled conditions, that lots of people don't even want to spend time going thru these records, and that the ones who have been haven't been able to find anything.

I mean, the original issue was 'why aren't more scientists taking this stuff seriously?'. Well, they are, the problem is, there's practically nothing to actually work with, even when there are these extensive 'records'.

But keep in mind that they can't distinguish between what is ET Ufos, regular UFOs, mis-identified objects, secret projects, etc etc.

I believe this is one of the issues being addressed.

Azambuja also gave details of Comdabra procedures and openly admitted that the country has systematically detected and registered UFOs in the country – labeled as “H Traffic” – since 1954. That wasn’t a surprise for the UFO researchers of the Brazilian Committee of UFO Researchers (CBU), but how this registering process took place .

What can we really say from this information? Lets say that we have a consistent record of 'things' tracked by radar that seem to be moving in unusual ways.

What does that give us? Are they perhaps stealthy jets flitting about? Are they 'radar projections' of objects that don't actually exist?
How can we state anything about them? I'm not saying its 'not worth looking at', but its understandable, considering how difficult real scientific research is under controlled conditions, that lots of people don't even want to spend time going thru these records, and that the ones who have been haven't been able to find anything.

Isn't that our goal, to rule out the possible terrestrial and atmoshperic explainations, when attempting to validate the extra-terrestrial theory?
And also your assuming that it isn't possible to rule out earthly explainations, when in reality nothing is preventing us from doing that.
The only thing we need to state about them is that they do not originate from Earth. Again it should not be impossible for us to come to that conclusion if it is correct.

I mean, the original issue was 'why aren't more scientists taking this stuff seriously?'. Well, they are, the problem is, there's practically nothing to actually work with, even when there are these extensive 'records'.

Those records are observational evidence that has led us to make the E.T.hypothesis and supports the theory of "Visitation".
The point of this thread is that verification of the theory is all that is left undone by the Mainstream Scientific Community.

Edit: The point I'm trying so hard to make is that the Scientific Method that has served us so well, and is the foundation upon wich we have built all our knowledge of the universe, doesn't simply have to fail us in face of a fairly simple question i.e. Is the Earth currently being visited by an outside inteligence?



[edit on 27-5-2005 by lost_shaman]

Originally posted by Quest
As a (ex)scientist I'd be happy to explain. Observation leads to theory. Theorys that are not-testable are unprovable. Its that simple.

If you can propose an experiment, that can be carried out, to test the theory that non-earth based craft are in our skys, I'm all ears.

Also, when experimentation is not possible, logic and philosophy often have to take over. In the case of UFO the known existance of top-secret aircraft (and space craft?) makes it logical that UFOs are man made. I have seen several UFOs very much beyond public domain, but I have no reason to say if they are man made or not.

Exactly, when something can not be falsified, there is no way to go forward.
You do not even have to be a scientist or researcher to recognize scientific principal; you just have to take a few courses in any class that deals with the scientific method.

You make a valid point about scientific analysis. The reason why mainstream scientists wont study this phenomenon is because its much easier to "turn a blind eye". That which we see and expierince in our three dimensional world, that which we expirence through our five senses. To say there is nothing beyond that, at least until sience explains it is a most secure feeling. It gives them absolutes to hold on to, they love thier closed minds. I will recal a time when I took a philosophy class and the professor was a scientist, his bassic message in class was that there was nothing beyond what we can prove by science. If science cant prove it, then it does not exist. As long as scientists continue this line of thinking then we will never progress as a whole to understanding the UFO issue.

Originally posted by Mad Man Lotar

Originally posted by Quest
As a (ex)scientist I'd be happy to explain. Observation leads to theory. Theorys that are not-testable are unprovable. Its that simple.

If you can propose an experiment, that can be carried out, to test the theory that non-earth based craft are in our skys, I'm all ears.

Also, when experimentation is not possible, logic and philosophy often have to take over. In the case of UFO the known existance of top-secret aircraft (and space craft?) makes it logical that UFOs are man made. I have seen several UFOs very much beyond public domain, but I have no reason to say if they are man made or not.

Exactly, when something can not be falsified, there is no way to go forward.
You do not even have to be a scientist or researcher to recognize scientific principal; you just have to take a few courses in any class that deals with the scientific method.

Logic n. the science of reasoning.
Logical adj. having to do with logic 2.reasonably expected:reasonable 3.reasoning correctly.

I disagree with your reasoning, the UFO predates the aircraft by hundreds of years. There are many examples that show UFO's in artwork, that match up quite nicely with the phenomenon we experiance in modern times.
So it would be un-reasonable to expect "Secret Aircraft" to explain the phenomena.

Here is a Great site with examples of UFO's in art through history.
www.ufoartwork.com...

When you are not able to falsify a claim, the next step to move forward is to try and Verify the claim.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by lost_shaman]

What if you saw a ufo, had something at the right time to knock it down and it crashed in your backyard.

Then what?

Remember though, there may be more where that one came from

Shaman says:

Well I'm no expert at all , but if you can detect an ETV, you can track it , monitor its movements and manuvers, record its speed, get someone on the ground in the area to visually verify the target, make triangulations, and do it all in real time.

So what are you left with, Shaman? The very best real evidence you can come up with is a possible recording or a radar trace that show something moving fast.

And what is that "something"?

There isn't a radar set around that can really identify something as deing a "this" or a "that". All you will ever be able to get under those circumstances is that there is something that appears to be moving very fast.

But could it be an aircraft whose signature is distorted by a temperature inversion? Possibly.

Every single report I have seen on this UFO or ETV business is simply that someone saw or tracked an "anomaly". An "anomaly" is something that can't easily be explained.

It could be one of the Little Purple Men From Arcturus, or it could be a miracle from Jesus, or it could be something else. Your guess is as good as mine.

But that's all you -- or I -- can do.

Guess.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Shaman says:

Well I'm no expert at all , but if you can detect an ETV, you can track it , monitor its movements and manuvers, record its speed, get someone on the ground in the area to visually verify the target, make triangulations, and do it all in real time.

So what are you left with, Shaman? The very best real evidence you can come up with is a possible recording or a radar trace that show something moving fast.

And what is that "something"?

There isn't a radar set around that can really identify something as deing a "this" or a "that". All you will ever be able to get under those circumstances is that there is something that appears to be moving very fast.

But could it be an aircraft whose signature is distorted by a temperature inversion? Possibly.

Every single report I have seen on this UFO or ETV business is simply that someone saw or tracked an "anomaly". An "anomaly" is something that can't easily be explained.

It could be one of the Little Purple Men From Arcturus, or it could be a miracle from Jesus, or it could be something else. Your guess is as good as mine.

But that's all you -- or I -- can do.

Guess.

Thank you, finally somebody is saying what I have been trying to say. The fact we see things in the sky doesn't mean it's automaticly their aliens and we should study them, that's called closing your mind.

There is only "slight evidence" of aliens, weird things in the sky. It could be man-made crafts, lights from an unknown source, as much we have to gon I'm sure some people say spirits. Heh, they could be humans from another dimension.. lol. Or.. giant onions..........

The bottom line is, until there becomes more evidence, experiments can't be made, but after it can, we can get closer to proof. In the mean-time, although it's really interesting, there are other things to study.

Also the rovers on mars are doing looking for life, and that's mainstream. I think we should be looking towards Europa though.

And.. About that philosophy teacher, I can't be sure.. but I think the teacher might have been trying to explain not to "belive" in anything beyond science, but you can still "belive" it a sort of "It could happen" way. I don't think this is closing your mind but rather filtering out stuff that can't be proven in order to not go insane. I think that's what the teacher might have meant, and it's pretty smart to me.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Shaman says:

Well I'm no expert at all , but if you can detect an ETV, you can track it , monitor its movements and manuvers, record its speed, get someone on the ground in the area to visually verify the target, make triangulations, and do it all in real time.

So what are you left with, Shaman? The very best real evidence you can come up with is a possible recording or a radar trace that show something moving fast.

And what is that "something"?

There isn't a radar set around that can really identify something as deing a "this" or a "that". All you will ever be able to get under those circumstances is that there is something that appears to be moving very fast.

But could it be an aircraft whose signature is distorted by a temperature inversion? Possibly.

Every single report I have seen on this UFO or ETV business is simply that someone saw or tracked an "anomaly". An "anomaly" is something that can't easily be explained.

It could be one of the Little Purple Men From Arcturus, or it could be a miracle from Jesus, or it could be something else. Your guess is as good as mine.

But that's all you -- or I -- can do.

Guess.

What I said I didn't know how its done!
Someone in the Brazilian Airforce is doing it , so I just imagine it is being done here in the U.S. also.
So don't think just becuase your Gov. tells you its just Little Purple Men From Arcturus, that others are not giving this the attention it deserves!

Anything can be researched, if the desire is there to do it. I still think the answer to the overall question of this thread is that the subject is being studied, heavily, but in secret. The USA has learned that it is potentially too huge a thing to be made public knowledge, as long as the question remains open we retain our gigantic lead in technology.

Places like Brazil give me hope though, any serious study will yield results and will open the doors for the rest of us.

In a way all the discussion in this thread should help people to realize that the case for the cover-up of information by the US is indeed pretty solid. What else would keep us from the serious research that this subject demands?


A.T
(-)

[Originally posted by Alexander Tau[/I]
Anything can be researched, if the desire is there to do it. I still think the answer to the overall question of this thread is that the subject is being studied, heavily, but in secret. The USA has learned that it is potentially too huge a thing to be made public knowledge, as long as the question remains open we retain our gigantic lead in technology.

Places like Brazil give me hope though, any serious study will yield results and will open the doors for the rest of us.

In a way all the discussion in this thread should help people to realize that the case for the cover-up of information by the US is indeed pretty solid. What else would keep us from the serious research that this subject demands?

Right on the Money A.T.!

The Science is being done in secret labs , behind closed doors.

At the same time mainstream scientists and the public in general , are ridiculed for even considering the possibility.

Hopefully , now that the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) has made the admission that UFO's are advanced E.T. technology , some of our respected mainstream Scientists around the would will "Wake up" and realize how they have been fooled , and distracted away from the biggest Scientific Discovery in human history since man learned to make Fire.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street

Originally posted by lost_shaman

Well I'm no expert at all , but if you can detect an ETV, you can track it , monitor its movements and manuvers, record its speed, get someone on the ground in the area to visually verify the target, make triangulations, and do it all in real time.

So what are you left with, Shaman? The very best real evidence you can come up with is a possible recording or a radar trace that show something moving fast.

And what is that "something"?

There isn't a radar set around that can really identify something as doing a "this" or a "that". All you will ever be able to get under those circumstances is that there is something that appears to be moving very fast.

But could it be an aircraft whose signature is distorted by a temperature inversion? Possibly.

Every single report I have seen on this UFO or ETV business is simply that someone saw or tracked an "anomaly". An "anomaly" is something that can't easily be explained.

Off_The_Street ,

That may have been true about RADAR in the 1950's , but this isn't the 1950's .

I've done a little research , and I'm quite sure that the technology in RADAR , and Surveillance has advanced to a point that can easily distinguish between solid objects , and temperature inversions or other weather related RADAR returns.

The Brazilian SIVAM System can do just that , its also the first of its kind, on a national scale.

Found this review of the Condon Report by J. Allen Hynek.

I believe that www.daviddarling.info..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Hynek makes a very reasonable case against the Report.

The Condon Report , being the "Scientific Study" that suggested no further scientific study of the UFO Phenomena is warranted.

ATS Thread ( Condon Report )

[edit on 12-6-2005 by lost_shaman]