religion..... the war starter

(his is my first time starting a one so here goes)

i believe that if this world was religion free we wouldnt have most of the wars that have happened nor would northen ireland be in 'war' (protestant vs. catholics) with each other

religion is just bad in a sense that all the bible has accomplised is a form of cult as have all of the other 'holy' books


does anyone agree with me

It is true that many wars have been fought in the name of God or religion, but I suspect that when it comes down to it the impetus of most wars can be traced to greed.

Steve

yea that is a validpoint but it stilldoesnt put down the fact that wars have been fought over religion for example the jews....when they became roman slaves.....the romans could have had any other people in there empire but they chose the jewish because of there religion now that says tome that most people hate other peoples religion!!!


i was speaking to my old friend and they go to a local church after i told them my theorys they wouldnt let me back in there house y???? because there church 'brain washed them'


well thats what it seemed like to me

i agree with you completley tigb but i think you would have a hard time getting people in the world to cast aside there religious beliefs.

Hey kids, look: big ben, parliament!

Seriously, it is not religions fault that people are douche bags. Blaming religion misses the whole point...some people are just evil. Religion doesn't create war; people use religion as their tool to create war. Take religion out of the equation and guess what? The war and the hatred doesn't go away. People will use some other tool to start war, create atrocities and murder each other. If it is not religion it will be politics, if not politics then business, if not business then race, if not any of these things then we will make up something completely new to justify and cause war. It just boils down the simple fact that no matter how good and beautiful something is there will be people who will find a way to twist, bash and distort that beauty into a weapon. The root cause for all the worlds problems is not religion. It is people.


[edit on 7-5-2005 by zerotime]

the romans could have had any other people in there empire but they chose the jewish because of there religion now that says tome that most people hate other peoples religion!!!

I'm pretty sure this is not true, the Romans enslaved people from all over the place including Rome itself. Roman slaves were not held because of religion either.

i was speaking to my old friend and they go to a local church after i told them my theorys they wouldnt let me back in there house y????

You really have to ask that?
This would probably be the answer....

religion is just bad in a sense that all the bible has accomplised is a form of cult as have all of the other 'holy' books

Seriously, it is not religions fault that people are douche bags. Blaming religion misses the whole point...some people are just evil. Religion doesn't create war; people use religion as their tool to create war. Take religion out of the equation and guess what? The war and the hatred doesn't go away. People will use some other tool to start war, create atrocities and murder each other. If it is not religion it will be politics, if not politics then business, if not business then race, if not any of these things then we will make up something completely new to justify and cause war. It just boils down the simple fact that no matter how good and beautiful something is there will be people who will find a way to twist, bash and distort that beauty into a weapon. The root cause for all the worlds problems is not religion. It is people.

Exactly, well said. In fact...

You have voted zerotime for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Like others, I'm of the opinion that you cannot blame "Religion" or any other Philisophical Concepts for actual War, not even a brawl between two people. Saying "Religion" or "The Bible" was/is the cause War is like saying "The National Anthem" and "The Flag" was/is the cause for the USA to come into existence. The fact of the matter is that it was/is the Willfull Actions of People that Create All these Events, not the endless variety of abstract symbols we associate with them. Everything within our individual personal lives that we live aquires it's "Meaning" from that individual. As long as individuals continue the willfull participation of Fighting over their individual "Meanings" it makes no difference what arbitrary object or concept they apply that "Meaning" to.

Two people can look at the same drawing, sculpture, sunset, poem, machine, etc. and come away with two totally different "Meanings", possibly even two opposing ones. No big deal at this point and no need for anything major to come from it either. The War comes in when one or the other Chooses to Battle over some specified difference between opinions.

There is no super secret to the formula once you take time to really look at it. War happens because People want it to, so they make it happen. Most people simply refuse to see the obvious reality of the situation at it's more basic level. War requires effort, willfull action, planning, organization, energy, etc. by people who's purpose is War. Peace requires NOTHING of anyone, literally!! You want to see World Peace for Real, it's the easiest thing ever to do, because all it requires is for People to Stop Waging War with each other. Instantly there is Peace. No real magic there as you can see, because Peace is the default when War is not Actively being Created. From my perspective it's almost too unbelievable to accept that it's still going on this way. It's like a bunch of people all seaching for the answer of "How to stop kicking your own ass?"

Tgib,
Your position and assumption tells me you have had to much public education .and this is exactly the position it intends to create in the minds of impressionable people.

Has it ever occurred to you what the track record is of athiest nations..like Communist Russia..or Communist China , Communist Cambodia and how they treated thier peoples. You really need a dose of this reality ..and athiesm..and their godless belief systems..these tracable historical track records. Ask your public school teachers to recount this information for you from your textbooks??? Most likely it is not in there. Not accidental. The estimates in Communist China under Mao Tse Tung.are about 40 million killed to bring about their revolution. Got the point yet.???? Was it not about 2 to 3 million in the "killing fields of Cambodia.." under the Pol Pot administration.?? I'll leave you ,Tgib, to check out what happened from the time of V.I. Lennin through Nikita Khruschiev. Just remember that these are godless athiest nations. Amazing how many athiests havent a clue about this history or try to dismiss it.

Also..the post about the Romans enslaving all peoples in their conquered territories is correct. The Romans did not show much favoritism in this . They were willing to enslave anyone..not by religion only.

Furthermore ...in attempts by "educated intelligent " peoples to put all religions on the same plane...they often overlook the concept that mostly in history ..religion was used to control people through a feudal system backed up by a priesthood...the kings had their crowns put on them by the ruling religious authority ..to go against ones king was to go against God..since the priesthood blessed the kings crown as a blessing from God. This was often called...." Divine right of Kings" . This is a concept not taught much in public schools anymore. The kings power since it came from the blessings of God was absolute. This was a wonderful and convenent system for fleecing the public and keeping the nobility in power.
Only among the English people who put their king on trial for treason and cut off his head..ever broke this power ..and control ..the king was accountable .. It was a religious movement that brought t his about..and the founding fathers of America knew this history ....this is why they were very serious on the seperation of powers and seperation of church and state... Because of this feudalism and the Divine right of King principle was known to them for the corruption it was. This too is not taught in public schools anymore.

Misuse of religion brought about this corruption of which you speak ..TGib ..and religion ...the correct religion put a end of it.

Thanks ,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Has it ever occurred to you what the track record is of athiest nations..like Communist Russia..or Communist China , Communist Cambodia and how they treated thier peoples.

Care to actually prove theses nations are atheist? China may have had buddhism.. but only a couple forms of buddhism lack a central god [it's a philosphy so is not relevent].

Misuse of religion brought about this corruption of which you speak ..TGib ..and religion ...the correct religion put a end of it.

Which 'correct' religion put an end to it?

It is easy to blame religion for war, the same way you could blame guns for murder. Too often it is the people using it, and how they use it that bring up bad results.

Religion has many good points to it, and it actually has been proven to benifit society more then it harms. There are perfectly good reasons why in the US church's are Tax exempt because politicians know that it improves the society to have them around.

Relgion isn't the cause of wars, only the excuse.

tend to agree with your position on blaming religion..like blaming guns Jehosephat...
I do disagree with you on the concept of tax exemption for churchs. Churchs should be tax immune...not tax exempt. Tax exemption is a privelege of the state and can be revoked. The biggest mistake churchs have made in this county is to ask for a privelege of the state and get a tax number as a 501c corporation. This is not seperation of the church from the state. Really stupid of them. Churchs should be tax immune not tax exempt. They should never be state sponsored corporations..this is a tax subsidy not tax immunity. Amazing to me how many "Christians" are ignorant of this concept. Churchs should never be tax supported/subsidized...nor by this sponsored by government..really dumb of them.

As to the communist countrys...being athiest...they brook no competition from religion and keep them downtroden or not at all. Any religion not going along with the state position finds itself and members in the gulag or dead ..this is known in the west. Especially Christian religions..as they oppose many of the functions and powers of a state like this. One of the problems happening in America and growing. These nations not only kill and imprision Christians but non christians by the droves.
One of the marks known by people versed in the bible is when governments turn on thier own peoples and fill the land with violence. This is a clear fingerprint tracable back in history. This is the noted fingerprint of communist nations..carte blanche. Everywhere they have gone. This clearly indicates the name of thier god. Without exception.

The religion which put a end to this feudalism in England..and the power of the priesthood under "Divine Right of Kings" was the Christian religion .in those days notably the Puritans...though others were involved also....the presbyterians.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
As to the communist countrys...being athiest...they brook no competition from religion and keep them downtroden or not at all.

The point of government sanctioned religions is to 'prevent' conflict and encourage equality. I don't believe communism can really ever work the way it's meant to but I understand why religion is disempowered by their ruling government.

Any religion not going along with the state position finds itself and members in the gulag or dead ..this is known in the west.

Which communist countries in the west?

Especially Christian religions..as they oppose many of the functions and powers of a state like this.

Actually.. I believe buddhism cops more flack [tibet].. the next dala lama is reportively being 'taken care' of by the government.. please provide some evidence that suggests christians are more victimised opposed to other religions.

One of the problems happening in America and growing. These nations not only kill and imprision Christians but non christians by the droves.

America? Are Christians being killed and imprisoned there? I know that is not what you meant but.. how does america tie into it? From where I stand it looks as though it's christianity is thriving.

The religion which put a end to this feudalism in England..and the power of the priesthood under "Divine Right of Kings" was the Christian religion .in those days notably the Puritans...though others were involved also....the presbyterians.

Denominations of christianity that would not exist if not for the crusades. What annoyed me was your describing it as the 'correct' religion.. thats exactly what every religion proclaims when in opposition to another.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by riley]

In response to your posting.

quote: Originally posted by orangetom1999
As to the communist countrys...being athiest...they brook no competition from religion and keep them downtroden or not at all.
The point of government sanctioned religions is to 'prevent' conflict and encourage equality. I don't believe communism can really ever work the way it's meant to but I understand why religion is disempowered by their ruling government.
quote: Any religion not going along with the state position finds itself and members in the gulag or dead ..this is known in the west.
Which communist countries in the west?
quote: Especially Christian religions..as they oppose many of the functions and powers of a state like this.
Actually.. I believe buddhism cops more flack [tibet].. the next dala lama is reportively being 'taken care' of by the government.. please provide some evidence that suggests christians are more victimised opposed to other religions.
quote: One of the problems happening in America and growing. These nations not only kill and imprision Christians but non christians by the droves.
America? Are Christians being killed and imprisoned there? I know that is not what you meant but.. how does america tie into it? From where I stand it looks as though it's christianity is thriving.
quote: The religion which put a end to this feudalism in England..and the power of the priesthood under "Divine Right of Kings" was the Christian religion .in those days notably the Puritans...though others were involved also....the presbyterians.
Denominations of christianity that would not exist if not for the crusades. What annoyed me was your describing it as the 'correct' religion.. thats exactly what every religion proclaims when in opposition to another.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by riley]

profile find posts send U2U


Government..sanctioned religion....your kidding right?????
In American ...there is to be no Government sanctioned religion..period...
By the Governments own admission.... Seperation of church and state.
Any attempt by government to sanction any religion ...historically ..always winds up in the ancient priesthood..which was used to fleece the public in favor of the government...this in ancient times came under the heading of "feudalism" in many variations .but always fuedalism.
Any attempt at tax deductions for giving to the church is government sponsored/subsidized churchs..and a phoney too. This is obvious to anyone thinking...except he bulk of "Christians"...they are way to dumb. Any thinking person knows this history.

lol lol the statement was not about which communist countrys in the west ..but that this is known about communist countrys ...by people in the west.

Buddhism cops more flack in tibet becaues buddhism ...has been there longer..and is against the communist technque..however ...they dont brook
Christianity in communist countrys either.

Christianity is not thriving in America...it is the appearence of thriving..much of Christianity has been hijacked by psuedo Christianity . What you see in America is people who are believers and disapproving of the policys of the state ..particularly what is taught in the schools in contradiction to bible principles coming under tremendous flack and often under the court systems and threatened with imprisionment if they dont give in. What you have here...and in other countrys..is a seperate feudal system...in government not answerable to the will of the public ..which they like to quote at election time. This is feudalism. Not democracy ..or the Republic.
Churchs which speak out against this feudalism find themselves audited for taxes...since they were dumb enough to take out a tax number as a corporation of the state. Dr James Dobson is textbook..he cannot take on certain issues without being audited. There are others..too..they just dont make this public.

as to the crusades and the English Civil war ..this not happening for the advent of the Crusades...this is totally false...and decietful.
In Catholic nations...the bulk of the crowns were put on the heads of the king by the religious authority ..meaning the Roman Catholic Church. The kings were "divine right" kings. To revolt against them was to revolt againt the Church and by this Gods blessings. No revolution was possible in the minds of catholics ..in catholic countrys..the dogma was so deeply entrenched. This had nothing to do with the crusades..at all...ever.
In England ..once Henry the Eighth..broke away...later to be replaced by James the First of England. He commissioned what became known as the King James Bible. What people learned by reading or being read from in this bible..though there were other bibles in English available...is that their King was in Heaven ..not on the throne of England...and that the English King was a administrator of Just English laws. The English king was not "divine right " as was done in the continent.
When King Charles 1st..broke the Magna Carta..by levying a tax of his own to support wars on the continent...the people knowing the king had done this ...now knew the king had broken the law...the question was how to hold the king accountable. "Divine right " kings are not accountable...that is the difference. This is why on the continent ..no revolution in Divine right king was possible until after the English had set their precident....resulting in the French Revolution.
The founders of America...knew this history .going back to the "divine right " kings ..the Egyptian Pharoahs...Greek Gods Roman Caesars..etc ..etc..and the corruption it breeds in the governmental systems and tried to build in a seperation of church and state...not to seperate people from their religion..but to keep the government from becoming "divine right". This concept is not taught anymore to people..for good reason...The king would be "naked" . The king would have no clothes..or so the fable goes. It would be obvious that they are trying to go back to a variation of this system. Feudalism. Power in the hands of a omnipotent government..exactly what was happening in history past. We just use intellect to hide it from the pubic after sending them to school to think this is good for them.

Oh by the way Riley...this is also a clear indicator of the false concept that Rome represents all of Christianity by default. Rome is not a automatic setting for all Christianity. So many people try to pass this on to unthinking
Christians and get away with it ..becuase so many Christians are ignorant of even Christianity.
Rome is not representative of all Christianity ...by default..and represents the history of this system of bondage called "divine right of Kings" Englishmen particularly should know this...intimately....as should Americans.

Sorry for the length of this but it is a long deep subject...
Thanks for your patience.

Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
In response to your posting.

Instead [to prevent confusion] you could quote with:
(quote)saywhatyougottasay(/quote).. swapping ( with [.

Government..sanctioned religion....your kidding right?????

I was refferring to communist countries [actually it would be 'government controlled' religions].

In American ...there is to be no Government sanctioned religion..period...
By the Governments own admission.... Seperation of church and state.
Any attempt by government to sanction any religion ...historically ..always winds up in the ancient priesthood..which was used to fleece the public in favor of the government...this in ancient times came under the heading of "feudalism" in many variations .but always fuedalism.

I actually like the seperation.. religion is often used as a weapon for war.. [opposed to cause.. but what a guns creted for?] and religion being as powerful as it is.. it is good that checks are in [or meant to be] in place.

Christianity is not thriving in America...it is the appearence of thriving..much of Christianity has been hijacked by psuedo Christianity .

One religion can have a hundred versions.. and when your president okays fictional sex ed I'd say that 'version' is thriving in the US.

What you see in America is people who are believers and disapproving of the policys of the state ..particularly what is taught in the schools in contradiction to bible principles coming under tremendous flack and often under the court systems and threatened with imprisionment if they dont give in.

I agree they should be reprimanded.. if it's a public school [freedom of religion they shouldn't be permitted to impose their dogma on other people's kids [they might have their own dogma].

What you have here...and in other countrys..is a seperate feudal system...in government not answerable to the will of the public ..which they like to quote at election time. This is feudalism.

I'll agree with this.

as to the crusades and the English Civil war ..this not happening for the advent of the Crusades...this is totally false...and decietful.

No christian religion would exist if not for the crusades.. otherwise pagenism would have survived and perhaps become a dominant religion.

The founders of America...knew this history .going back to the "divine right " kings ..the Egyptian Pharoahs...Greek Gods Roman Caesars..etc ..etc..and the corruption it breeds in the governmental systems and tried to build in a seperation of church and state...not to seperate people from their religion..but to keep the government from becoming "divine right".

It was an admirable sentiment.. unfortuantly it doesn't seem to have stuck as Mr Bush has said he is doing god's work.. how has it gotten so out of hand with your constitution being so specific? I also heared somewhere that the words 'under god' were added in the 1950s so when the government asserts that that was what the founding fathers wanted it may be incorrect [btw I'm an aussie- shows how 'important' US politics is even over here].

Oh by the way Riley...this is also a clear indicator of the false concept that Rome represents all of Christianity by default. Rome is not a automatic setting for all Christianity. So many people try to pass this on to unthinking
Christians and get away with it ..becuase so many Christians are ignorant of even Christianity.

The Catholic church has a huge amount of power so when 'the word' is being spread it is usually the loudest voice that is speaking.. it may not be the 'default' for you but it certainly does have a monopoly of the religion [which jesus, if he existed; probably wouldn't apporove of.

Sorry for the length of this but it is a long deep subject...
Thanks for your patience.

No probs.

quote: Government..sanctioned religion....your kidding right?????
I was refferring to communist countries [actually it would be 'government controlled' religions].
quote: In American ...there is to be no Government sanctioned religion..period...
By the Governments own admission.... Seperation of church and state.
Any attempt by government to sanction any religion ...historically ..always winds up in the ancient priesthood..which was used to fleece the public in favor of the government...this in ancient times came under the heading of "feudalism" in many variations .but always fuedalism.
I actually like the seperation.. religion is often used as a weapon for war.. [opposed to cause.. but what a guns creted for?] and religion being as powerful as it is.. it is good that checks are in [or meant to be] in place.
quote: Christianity is not thriving in America...it is the appearence of thriving..much of Christianity has been hijacked by psuedo Christianity .
One religion can have a hundred versions.. and when your president okays fictional sex ed I'd say that 'version' is thriving in the US.
quote: What you see in America is people who are believers and disapproving of the policys of the state ..particularly what is taught in the schools in contradiction to bible principles coming under tremendous flack and often under the court systems and threatened with imprisionment if they dont give in.
I agree they should be reprimanded.. if it's a public school [freedom of religion they shouldn't be permitted to impose their dogma on other people's kids [they might have their own dogma].
quote: What you have here...and in other countrys..is a seperate feudal system...in government not answerable to the will of the public ..which they like to quote at election time. This is feudalism.
I'll agree with this.
quote: as to the crusades and the English Civil war ..this not happening for the advent of the Crusades...this is totally false...and decietful.
No christian religion would exist if not for the crusades.. otherwise pagenism would have survived and perhaps become a dominant religion.
quote: The founders of America...knew this history .going back to the "divine right " kings ..the Egyptian Pharoahs...Greek Gods Roman Caesars..etc ..etc..and the corruption it breeds in the governmental systems and tried to build in a seperation of church and state...not to seperate people from their religion..but to keep the government from becoming "divine right".
It was an admirable sentiment.. unfortuantly it doesn't seem to have stuck as Mr Bush has said he is doing god's work.. how has it gotten so out of hand with your constitution being so specific? I also heared somewhere that the words 'under god' were added in the 1950s so when the government asserts that that was what the founding fathers wanted it may be incorrect [btw I'm an aussie- shows how 'important' US politics is even over here].
quote: Oh by the way Riley...this is also a clear indicator of the false concept that Rome represents all of Christianity by default. Rome is not a automatic setting for all Christianity. So many people try to pass this on to unthinking
Christians and get away with it ..becuase so many Christians are ignorant of even Christianity.The Catholic church has a huge amount of power so when 'the word' is being spread it is usually the loudest voice that is speaking.. it may not be the 'default' for you but it certainly does have a monopoly of the religion [which jesus, if he existed; probably wouldn't apporove of.
quote: Sorry for the length of this but it is a long deep subject...
Thanks for your patience.
No probs.


Riley,

I believe in seperation of church and state...not for the reasons used intellectually ...but for the purposes of limited government ..not something we have had here in America in the last 40 years. Government has in fact been getting bigger across the board. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion as intellectuals are trying to do here...while at the same time as did the hebrews of olde times substituting the intellectual religion upon a unawares people.

Also ..I dont know what they are doing in public schools here for sex ed. I do know that across the country public education has become a jobs program with the education of our children coming in second place or further down the line. The other function of public schools is to indoctrinate so as to groom a predictable controlable gauranteed voting block. Especially among 18-21 year olde voters. You can see this all across the nation with special groups singing the same mantra. Predictable and controlable. Very little thinking going on ...all emotions..very predictable . This emotional grooming starts early...in pubic schools. You can tell this because so many know the latest product to be consumed ...but not much about how to make a living...how to have sex yes..but not how to survive....Great..wonderful. So many of them wind up coming back home ...three or four times ..with baggage before they figure out that life is not like in the movies or on tv...amazing.!! But they are great consumers..Riley.

No christian religion would have survived if not for the crusades. What you have in the crusades and the RCC is two non christian groups fighting for power and control over areas of the earth. I will remind you ..Riley that the Muslims were invading Europe in the 700s Ad...and were stopped by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours , France in 732 AD...some three hundred years before the crusades.
Furthermore ..the history of the RCC is anything but christian...they do not follow the conduct outlined by the apostles ..in what they do or not do. No Christian has a instruction to build huge buildings to the glory of the "Holy Mother church " Or to kill other churchs in competiton with them in a inquesition...etc etc etc.. Nor carry out a crusade in the Name of God..none of this is a New testament instruction for a christian church. You seem wont to gloss over this history in favor of some kind of default setting based on the size of the "Church"
I will remind you ..that both in New testament times....and in Olde testament times..the followers of God were always a minority surrounded by peoples and nations who did not like or approve of them. Not the majority ...which you seem wont to claim for the RCC.
The trail of Gods church can be found from the apostles unto today ..all over the world ..much of the ancient history of the Church can be found not in the RCC but by following the trail outlined in books like John Foxxe and his "Book of Martyrs" In this book you will find the trail of Gods church by the persecution by the RCC , Anglicans , Lutherans..and others. These institutions/ organizations left records of who and how many they killed.
God's church is not a default setting based on the intellect of men..but of God.

I do not believe that George Bush is doing God's work per se...he is a politician. That should be self explainitory. This applies to any politician.
You should not assume that everyone buys into the mantra for the purposes of your positions.
What I can tell that George Bush is doing here in America ..is hitting his political opposition in every arena that they have traditionally been able to get votes. In short ..George and his political party are weakening his competitors political base...not promoting Christianity. Of this I am certain.
Unfortunately ....most who claim to be Christians are somewhat blindsided by this...and think he is their man. They will be dissappointed. Peel back the surface veneer..and you see a astute political party at work.
I will also remind you that politics is a relgion among many ..with devout adherants...very devout believers ..in politics..in any nation. They are in the primary occupation of selling peoples souls for votes and power..this is the nature of this religion. Another olde word for this is "whoredom" You should know this. It will never..and I mean never..be taught in pubic schools for what it really is.

I agree with you on this..Jesus wouldnt approve of the RCC and others following this pattern..you have that one correct.

Thanks ,
Orangetom