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Mercenaries open new Baghdad Office

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posted on May, 7 2005 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by jayce
Finally someone understands!!! However I can't stress this enough....
Blackwater in Iraq falls under the Dept. of State, not the Dept. of Defense.


Right. Dept. of State. I knew that.

In the context of what I am concerned with, it really makes no difference what department they are contracted under, WE are still floating a rediculous bill for their work.

Another thing that concerns me is that there is a trend of qualified special operators LEAVING the armed forces for the money, work, glory, or whatever motivation the individual may have. This is a problem because now, we have Rumsfeld implementing a 'from the street to Special Forces' recruitment program which is diluting the talent pool and causing our special operations community to become less effective.




posted on May, 7 2005 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by jayce
Finally someone understands!!! However I can't stress this enough....
Blackwater in Iraq falls under the Dept. of State, not the Dept. of Defense.


Right. Dept. of State. I knew that.

In the context of what I am concerned with, it really makes no difference what department they are contracted under, WE are still floating a rediculous bill for their work.

Another thing that concerns me is that there is a trend of qualified special operators LEAVING the armed forces for the money, work, glory, or whatever motivation the individual may have. This is a problem because now, we have Rumsfeld implementing a 'from the street to Special Forces' recruitment program which is diluting the talent pool and causing our special operations community to become less effective.


Ok, I see your point know!!! You broke it down barney
style for me..thanx


Yeah man that's all true.....They are even lowering the standards for some of the initail qualifications in the SF field even in the Corps this has an impact that effects many things. But can you blame them? They spend many years doing the dirty work busting thier humps for what? Not much money and a lack of social life. So they get out and go private and make alot of money, still don't have a spcial life but the cash is good.

I See why they get out, I have a buddy here now who starts up with BW in 2 months and that is his reasons....

But at the time all that stuff you said is so true.....the money is just off the heezy bageezy, big $$$.

So the problem is not with them, but i would say it is with the Gov't spending it on them.



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by SportyMB
But can you blame them? They spend many years doing the dirty work busting thier humps for what? Not much money and a lack of social life. So they get out and go private and make alot of money, still don't have a spcial life but the cash is good.

In a nutshell. Hired gunmen.

Mercenaries are not new to the world. The Egyptians and Greeks used them as did the Carthaginians and Romans and every nation since. These are private armies.

The Swiss built a nation because of them- the Swiss were the premiere mercenaries of Europe for hundreds of years.

Edward I (Longshanks) used Irish and Scot mercenaries against the Scots.

Mercenary armies have recently (last ¼ century) played prominently in South Africa, Angola, Central America, Vietnam (Hmong and Montagnards) and other places. The Hessians in the American Revolutionary War were mercenaries. Sometimes, as in the case of the Montagnards and Hmong the line that separates a mercenaries from a soldier is blurred. In other case it is clear.

America has long used mercenaries. From the early use of Indians to hiring French (trappers?) soldiers.

A group of Irishmen called The Wild Geese probably lays claim to the longest existing mercenary claim.
    as poet Emily Lawless said: "Fighters in every clime --- Every cause but our own."



Does a warrior fight because of money? If the answer is yes then = mercenary

Another way to look at view them is: do they prostitute their skills (abilities)?



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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hey man a really good valid point, they should not pollute the gene pool of SF guys with people just off the street, at least the guys who have come through serving in the forces prior always have the basic skills of a solider which have been drilled into them over and over again.

And if the governments are will to send out contracts of upto and including $293 million of tax payers money then they will always be SF guys of all kinds wanting to take the money these companies offer..... lets face it they need to pay vast amounts for these guys to work in a environment such as this which at the end of the day is not a life long job they can do..... but also back to rules of engagment they operate by here is a brief over look, like i said prior to this they are no way near as extensive as the militarys (such as the british JSP 375 (i think that is the correct number? it has been so long )) but they are still rules of engagment to be followed

1 Contracted securtiy forces: Co operate with coalition, multi-national and iraqi securtiy forces and comply with theater protection policies. DO NOT avoid or run coalition, multi national, or iraqi security force check points. if authorized to carry weapons DO NOT aim at coalition, multi nation, or iraqi sercurity forces.
2 Use of deadly force. Deadly force is that force which one reasonably believes will cause death or serious bodily harm. you may use NECESSARY FORCE, upto and including deadly force against persons in the following circumstances:
a. In self defense
b. In defense of persons as specified in YOUR contract.
c. To prevent life threating offenses against civilians.

like i said they do go on a little more and i would provide the rest but dont want to break security regulations set out in my contract.... but i will just go to the end!

TREAT CIVILIANS WITH DIGNITY AND RESPECT! MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO AVOID CIVILIAN INJURYS! CIVILIANS WILL BE TREATED HUMANELY.

i hope this clears up any issues regarding the rules of engagment used by ANY and ALL security company in iraq...



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:26 PM
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one more point, google the name Tim Spicer.... really interest what comes up and he has one of the, if not the biggest contract in iraq right now

[edit on 7/5/05 by jayce]



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:26 PM
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Well for the young people in this board that will be a great Job for any of you, if you want:

Adventure
Be able to travel to "exotic lands" in the middle east.
Be able to shot
A career in a "dangerous field"
Be able to stay alive more than 6 months.

They have the job for you..............


I wonder how long their offices will be open in Baghdad before becoming an insurgent target.


Or...............they kidnap one of them.



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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I wonder how long their offices will be open in Baghdad before becoming an insurgent target.


they have been in baghdad a long time already and have had no incidents in there baghdad compound, they loses have happened out in the "red zones" as they are called



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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I wonder how long their offices will be open in Baghdad before becoming an insurgent target.


Thier offices are already being targeted and bombed.....



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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A contractor, while operating under Federal Law, he is not operating under military law. Although access to weaponry and logisitcs (air support) is limited you can spread money about and you're not limited to an AO where your CO operates. When you're in another country does Federal Law still apply? Yes and no. It's a helluva lot easier to get away with mayhem sure. DoD policy currently ACCEPTS contractors, under approved corporate agencies of course (that payroll the department). Hired gun? More like professional consultant. You can't expect the military to provide security for directors manning oil operations and construction rehabs. These people are targets - just proves the enemy is well entrenched, equipped, tactical, and has moles everywhere.



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:46 PM
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This is not new, they have been targeted already, they have been around for a while.

This people are not mercenaries as a matter of fact my husband has a friend an ex Marine that fill out the papers to be a member of their ranks, but the pay was not good enough for the high risk danger zone.

Sorry I though this was new group a real mercenary group.



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:51 PM
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hey marg if you read about "real" mercenry's then i suggest you google the former company named "sandline"



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 04:53 PM
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Hey SportyMB I don’t know if you were directing the covert ops comment at me, but any way.....there were certain allegations (some by military members) that Private contractors were doing some of the interrogations of detainees, in order to get around some of the restraints that a military intelligence or other official government operative would be force to abide. These interrogations were a bit harsher (NOT TORTURE MIND YOU, maybe bordering) than what would be allowed by treaties and conventions for official government interrogators to do. I remember hearing this a little over a year or so.

as for some of the cowboy antics, some operators were have been accused of going around supposedly pointing guns at anybody who would be around them (almost recklessly & indiscriminately). And they would slap and pistol whip and in some cases shoot up in the air with little provocation when someone would be in there way. These allegations were supposedly made by military members who would find local populations sometimes hostile towards them because of the Contractor's conduct. However these allegations were way over a year ago, I think before the whole falujah thing and it's still very far from baby killing or whatever other nonsense people were bringing up about PMCs in Iraq. And this was also before the Iraqi Military and police took a more direct role and the only places that were really under control (well as much as possible) were the areas were the US/coalition forces heavily entrenched and these guys weren’t always operating in these areas so they needed the extra leeway (at least in my eyes) to safely garanteed their own safety and that of their principles(protectorate) or mission they were undertaking. Like I said PMCs are a modern evolution and Professional form of historic mercenaries. They are all ex-special ops and season professional soldiers. And these allegations were never brought up again so I guess there was little to it and/or it was covered up (don’t really buy the cover up). I go out of my way to differentiate between PMC and Mercenaries because of the historic reputation and bias that the Mercenary title brings with it. It’s like comparing a modern day police forces (think NYPD ect..) to an 1800's sheriff or constabulary, same job but completely different level of professionalism, training and Rules of engagement/operating. Another point that some people have brought up is the close relation that contractors have with Iraqi military and police unit and have been directly training their swat/special ops equivalents and have ALEGEDLY taken part in raids with them. These are some of the most legitimate and well backed up in certain cases allegations that have been made against PMCs in iraq, in my eyes they don’t really add up to much even if they are true.



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 05:39 PM
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there were certain allegations (some by military members) that Private contractors were doing some of the interrogations of detainees


I've heard of this too. But that is definately few and far between. And if it in fact it was done...it was probably done to someone well deserved of such treatment (not torture though). and Im guessing that this person to be caleld upon and tasked woth such a thing had prior experience in interrorgations. We cannot generalize the entire PMC community based on the actions of a few cowboys that are triggy happy.

BYW: Cowboys.....I thought that was funny. Good usage of the word




as for some of the cowboy antics, some operators were have been accused of going around supposedly pointing guns at anybody who would be around them (almost recklessly & indiscriminately). And they would slap and pistol whip and in some cases shoot up in the air with little provocation when someone would be in there way.


Yes, there are bad apples...even in the PMC field. Im sure these cowboys were dealt with...if not then they should have been. Especially for being so careless.



Like I said PMCs are a modern evolution and Professional form of historic mercenaries. They are all ex-special ops and season professional soldiers


Most are...I would go as far as saying "ALL' are. Many of them are prior US Federal agents and Intell guys who specialize in certian areas such as Counter surveillence and Analysis.



I go out of my way to differentiate between PMC and Mercenaries because of the historic reputation and bias that the Mercenary title brings with it


You said what I could not put into words......I agree.



Another point that some people have brought up is the close relation that contractors have with Iraqi military and police unit and have been directly training their swat/special ops equivalents and have ALEGEDLY taken part in raids with them.


That's true. They do train other nations swat and special ops teams. This is becasue as you said alot of these guys are ex-pros at this and instructors. Many US swat teams are trained by Blackwater. Blackwater even trains other units. Blackwater has even some training with Marine "FAST" companies and units.



posted on May, 7 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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A bit off topic but it's kind of ironic how the historically (20th century) the Military Bureaucracy has been hesitant to create and maintain elite military forces because they felt it would diminish their regular units when they finally began to embrace the advantages that these special units bring to their arsenal they are now losing them to higher paying PMCs. But at least they are gradually uping (spelling) the overall quality of all the troops in general, I mean modern day rangers are just as if not more efficient and capable as the special ops of old, and the average Infantry and marine unit as also more effective than what they have historically been, now if we can pay them something closer to what they really deserve I doubt we could ever pay them what they are worth.



posted on May, 9 2005 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by Bout Time
They are undertaking offensives, not soley defensive postures

They are killing people


And you know this how?


And trying to bridge honor & the prior contexts of real wars to this invasion.
If you're going to try and use a 'Seekerof' tactic of asking for a link (implied) to subjects dicussed all over ATS, I'll give you a tittytwister if I ever see you!
Are you of the opinion that Blackwater has no kills tallied!?

Logically, if you're charged with security through zones that are hostile, would you not clear out the hostiles so that secured passage is reasonably assured? Maybe gun ship helicopters? It's kind of hard to look at those as purely a defensive weapon, no?

Dated 7 March and bearing the name of Blackwater's president, Gary Jackson, the electronic newsletter adds that terrorists 'need to get creamed, and it's fun, meaning satisfying, to do the shooting of such folk.'

observer.guardian.co.uk...




The USA went there for a reason. They believed due to intellegence (I agree was faulty) that there was a threat there. There may have been no physical threat, but a rogue dictator was still a threat to the area and to the people there. Not to mention giving the finger essentially to the UN Resolutions (the world in a sense) for 11 years or so.

The Intel was no where near faulty...it was coerced, massaged and cherry picked, but it sure as hell was not faulty. What exactly changed in our rational for going to war that not having a physical threat is still ok to sanction?
A blockade, a net placed over their primary export, a quarter million bombing sorties since 1991 with as many "rogue" spy flights above the 33rd & below the 36th parrallels, sattellite survelliance and less disregard for UN Resolutions than Israel has been guilty of.
Marry the above to a Third World Military that never recovered from their 1991 azz whupping, and under no reasonable assessment did Iraq pose any threat to the region OR the US.


To win a war (which this is) requires being creative and unpredictable, using deception and attack to win. In fact use every tool at our disposal to win. I don't follow the thought "Winning is not important, playing the game is".

If that is in fact true, then why do we bother keep score??

Yes, we have private contractors there. Use every means nessasary to win. I suppose some people don't want to win, but that is the goal of the matter.


Again, sounds noble but it's BS. Mercenaries are being used in order to circumvent required headcount numbers. They are being used to make the corporations that things have been outsourced to, richer. They are being used because their deaths do not go into the media accessable count.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:23 PM
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If they are paying me upwards of 500 clams a day, I have no problem putting my a** on the line for some corporations public image. This is a company with a contingent of top of the line operators, many who live for the excitement and the challenge. The money is nice, and if you have the skill, why not take the risk?

[edit on 9-6-2005 by confoundit]



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