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Good news for a change! Marine cleared in videotaped shooting

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posted on May, 5 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by Oblivions void

haven't heard too many stories of fallen helicopter injured and/or dead pillots rigging themselves to blow can u say the same thing about insurgents?

if ur face with superior force bring out all the stops, I know I would, but dont BLANK when it comes back and bites you in the rear. I'm pretty out there and honest when it comes to war but even I wouldn't compare a severely UNARMED person begging for their life with a injured combatant still clutching their weapons. It’s all out war and all but we should still call it like it is and this isn’t the same. If it was a US soldier severely injured holding their weapon while being storm by the enemy I said he died like a warrior, an injured CIVILIAN pilot (unarmed) begging for his life...


this might apply to your inquiry xmotex




posted on May, 5 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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I think I would have better luck getting a cogent argument out of a brick.
Like I said, tribal loyalties trump logic every time.

No weapons, IEDs, or the like were found on the guy.
He was just a wounded guy lying there dying.

And I have no doubt that had the exact same situation been reversed, the Bush zombies would be out in force using this as proof of how brutal and inhuman the insurgents are, and how an American soldier would never ever do such a thing.

Do you people not realize how thouroughly brainwashed you are?
Is there not a little voice of conscience that speaks up in you and says "this is BS", before you deny the obvious facts, for fear of lookng "anti-American?"

So should this be our policy now, kill all the wounded, because some might be faking it?

How very noble. Crank up the Lee Greenwood and stick your head back in the sand. If we just make ourselves believe everything is ok, there won't be anything to worry about...

[edit on 5/5/05 by xmotex]



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
OK; maybe he could have a granade. I saw the video, and this guy looked pretty helpless, like he just wanted some help. Well, he got his help in the form of a bullet. Were this guys soldiers, or not - who really knows.

As always, everybody will have their own story and their own opinion.

You have Yours, and I have Mine.


You even read posts before you reply anymore Souljah?

The guy had his hand behind his head and moved it. The soldiers had experienced other boobie trapped bodies and injured insurgents prior to this. You are very selective in what you retain Souljah. The soldier had lost buds in this fashion, the shooting was justified. If you dont want these guys getting shot, naybe you should tracel to Iraq and teach them not stuff bodies with explosives and boobie trap the wounded so this wont happen to them.

I think this soldier should get a medal for action that could have saved everybody in thet room. HURAY FOR THE MARINES!! HEROS!



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
So to all of you trying to come up with pretzel logic justification for this shooting, how about trying to answer my question.

If the roles were reversed, and it was an insurgent shooting a wounded and unarmed US soldier lying on the ground, presenting no apparent threat, would it still be OK by you?


If wounded American soldiers feigned death to use suicide tactics (of course it's happened before, but not as a matter of course, generally because we drag our wounded out of a lost battle), I'd be upset that another American soldier died (just as the Iraqis are upset over this). But I would not blame the enemy soldier for trying to preserve his own life. Fight dirty tricks with dirty tricks.

Any intelligent military wouldn't use such tactics, for the obvious reason that any intelligent enemy would catch on and start executing the wounded just like this guy did. It's like cheating at a sport- tackling the other guy's players in basketball only works until they start tackling your guys back.

[edit on 5-5-2005 by Esoterica]



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
So to all of you trying to come up with pretzel logic justification for this shooting, how about trying to answer my question.

If the roles were reversed, and it was an insurgent shooting a wounded and unarmed US soldier lying on the ground, presenting no apparent threat, would it still be OK by you?


Of course it would not be OK. But there are big differences: our troops are not booby-trapping corpses. And the biggest difference is, the insurgent would never have faced any disciplinary actions or investigations from his own people. Instead, he would have been praised as a hero.



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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Instead, he would have been praised as a hero.


Have you read the thread?
He is being praised as a hero.

In fact that is what I am objecting to, more than to him being cleared of the charges.

For all I know, he may really have believed the guy might be a human IED.
But he wasn't.

I don't think the US should be promoting a policy of "shoot every wounded Iraqi", because they might be boobytrapped. That's simply nuts.

The soldiers know what they are doing, they are trained and given procedures to deal with threats like boobytrapped dead/wounded and "playing dead." I doubt that procedure is simply "shoot anything that moves." This is not something new to the US .mil, we faced the same kind of thing in Vietnam.

So no, I don't think the guy should be called a hero.
I don't necessarily think he should go to Leavenworth either.

[edit on 5/5/05 by xmotex]



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 08:40 PM
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Glad he won't face conviction......I think he should've never been charged.

Wonder though if the drop in military enlistments had something to do with his charges being dropped.

Could it be...... peoples actions .....or lack of .... carry more weight than we realize?



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
Have you read the thread?
He is being praised as a hero.


Please, just shut up. The most anyone has done in this thread is say that they're glad he wasn't charged and that his actions were justified. No one is calling the guy a hero or a role model or anything of that nature. They're treating him like any soldier in a tough situation.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
You even read posts before you reply anymore Souljah?

The guy had his hand behind his head and moved it. The soldiers had experienced other boobie trapped bodies and injured insurgents prior to this. You are very selective in what you retain Souljah. The soldier had lost buds in this fashion, the shooting was justified. If you dont want these guys getting shot, naybe you should tracel to Iraq and teach them not stuff bodies with explosives and boobie trap the wounded so this wont happen to them.

I think this soldier should get a medal for action that could have saved everybody in thet room. HURAY FOR THE MARINES!! HEROS!

Nobody knows if there was ANY grenades in this guys hand or if there was basicly ANY thread whatsoever by these men lying dead and wounded in this room. Sure - the Marince procedure tells you to shoot first, in case this crazy terrorist is maybe having a granade. Maybe. I didnt see any rifles pointing out, I didnt see any guns or pistols. I didnt see any grenades. I didnt see any booby trapes. I didnt see any Threat!

Anyway, the reason why I posted here, because I dont like the title of Your thread - Good News for A Change? Whats so Good about this News? Like its good news that the people responsible for torture and killing in Guantanamo wont get charged, that kind of good news?

Really, HURRAY FOR THE MARINES! HURRAY FOR THEIR HEORIC EFFORTS TO CLEAN UP IRAQ OF THE EVIL TERRORISTS! HIP HIP...

Another clear reason that the Blood of a Western Man is more valuable then the blood of an Eastern Man.

Just like blood of an Isreali child is more valuable then the blood of a Palestinian child.

Same story - diffrent theatre.

[edit on 6/5/05 by Souljah]



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Maybe. I didnt see any rifles pointing out, I didnt see any guns or pistols. I didnt see any grenades. I didnt see any booby trapes. I didnt see any Threat!


How could you have seen any of that? Like evreyone else at ATS, you weren't there. It's not your job, or my job to determine the threat or make that call. It was the marine's job. People here that are happy for the soldier are not happy that he killed another armed or unarmed soldier. they are happy because the marine didn't get in trouble for following his protocol, determining the threat, and acting on it.

No one here has said that the man who was shot was less of a person, and I certainly didn't see anyone talking about dead Isreali or Palestinian children. This is purely about the marine being cleared on charges that should have never been brought to him.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by mpeake
How could you have seen any of that? Like evreyone else at ATS, you weren't there. It's not your job, or my job to determine the threat or make that call. It was the marine's job. People here that are happy for the soldier are not happy that he killed another armed or unarmed soldier. they are happy because the marine didn't get in trouble for following his protocol, determining the threat, and acting on it.

No one here has said that the man who was shot was less of a person, and I certainly didn't see anyone talking about dead Isreali or Palestinian children. This is purely about the marine being cleared on charges that should have never been brought to him.

You are Correct - I was not there, and neither was You. The camerman was there and he recorded the act - ONE OF THESE KIND OF ACTS. And the Army ofcourse wants to wash their hands, at least with a Court. Do you have any idea how many of these kind of similar acts were commited, that were NOT recorder in any way? Maybe this guy had right in shooting and "eliminating the Threat" - but what about everybody else? Lets not forget this happened in Fallujah, where so many innocent people have died.

This kinds of situations happen in Isreal all the time - Isreali soldiers shoot and kill a "possible terrorist", but he was only a civilan.

Nothing to see here really, please move along.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 09:45 AM
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But we are not talking about the other incidents that are far worse. We are talking abou THIS soldier and THIS incident alone. I'm gald there aren't cameras following each soldier around, because then each one of them would be worried about what they do (no matter how right or wrong) ending up in court. How can any one wage a war when they have to second guess themselves at every turn.

I actually do not endorse this war. But I do endorse our soldiers ability to make thier own decisions, based on thier training, with out the fear of having thier actions played out on CNN the next day.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 10:08 AM
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Topical Anesthetic


Originally posted by Souljah
Just like blood of an Isreali child is more valuable then the blood of a Palestinian child.



Originally posted by Souljah
This kinds of situations happen in Isreal all the time - Isreali soldiers shoot and kill a "possible terrorist", but he was only a civilan.

Are you even reading what you are posting? This is obnoxious, off-topic and absurd.

These sorts of irrelevant, empty, rhetorical analogies are a poor substitute for cogent commentary on the actual topic.

That's why they aren't convincing anyone of anything: because they have no point to make.

I find it hard to imagine that even you believe the words you are posting here, so why should I believe them?


Originally posted by Souljah
Nothing to see here really, please move along.

This is an incredibly revealing thing to put at the end of an essentially content-free post.

If you want to make some sort of point on this topic, it is necessary for you to present one, and so far, I'm not seeing it.

I know this is harsh criticism, but it is honest criticism.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by Majic
Topical Anesthetic
Are you even reading what you are posting? This is obnoxious, off-topic and absurd.

I am Reading what I am Writing - and I agree on the off-topic.



These sorts of irrelevant, empty, rhetorical analogies are a poor substitute for cogent commentary on the actual topic.

So whats the topic? That the Military Court released all charges about this alleged killing of the half-dead Iraqi solider, that was taped on this camera? Wow! Thanks alot! Now I am sleeping safer, knowing that these guy can walk and go. It really doesnt matter that this Marine is free to go - what bothered me MOST is the tone that mister skippytjc used to post that news: Good News for a Change! Good for who? The Marine and the Marine Core? Good for Bush goverment? Good for Freedom and Justice in Iraq?



I find it hard to imagine that even you believe the words you are posting here, so why should I believe them?

Belive what You want - and I will do the same.



If you want to make some sort of point on this topic, it is necessary for you to present one, and so far, I'm not seeing it.

I know this is harsh criticism, but it is honest criticism.

My Point is - Nothing New here, the title just pissed me off, thats all. For all those that wonder and are amazed and are happy that this Marine is free - Hey it has happened hundreds times before, and on much bigger levels than this. The problem with this videotaped shooting is created by the new media technology, making it possible for people to record and then show to the World, what really happened.

But hey, its War. People Die. Soliders Kill.

As I said, Nothing New, Please Move Along.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 11:23 AM
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Fish-Eye Lens


Originally posted by Souljah
The problem with this videotaped shooting is created by the new media technology, making it possible for people to record and then show to the World, what really happened.

First off, that was a very dignified and level-headed response to a rather hard-assed and snippy post on my part, and thus deserving of my respect and appreciation, for whatever that may be worth.


Also, I am somewhat with you on the “good news” part seeming maybe just a bit too upbeat for such a grave topic. It does seem a bit off to me.

However, for those following the story, the good news is that this guy was not hung out to dry as a result of a conviction in the court of public opinion. The easy thing to do would have been to write him off and sacrifice him for P.R.

They didn't do that, and apparently didn't do that as the result of a careful investigation made under difficult circumstances -- with people around the world screaming for this guy's blood.

My sense of this is that the Marine in question is not guilty of murder in this case. However, I say that with the caveat that I don't know for sure one way or the other.

100% certainty is 100% fallacy.

The problem with this case is the misperception on the part of viewers that seeing what the video shows necessarily shows everything that needed to be seen.

It is true that “the camera does not lie”, but it sure as hell can deceive, which is what apparently happened here.

As for all the references to acts of other soldiers, or soldiers of other nations (note: this was a U.S. Marine, not an Israeli reservist), they are irrelevant.

This case is about this case, and attempts to suggest otherwise are disingenuous, which is the point underlying my earlier admittedly strident criticism.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 01:14 PM
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Eye of the Beholder

Welcome to the War of the 21.st Century.

The power of the Media was shown to the world for the first time in the First Gulf War, when CNN ruled the Planet with exclusive reports by their Journalists (now a HBO movie!) - but today journalists and cameramen come from all over the world, and some of them are not embedded with US Army. This guy was that taped this "videotaped shooting". And then the entire World Saw it. US Army was suddenyl being labeled for "killing an unarmed man", while the other side of the story is that this guy was an Iraqi soldier, that could easily blow up a hidden granade and kill all of the Marines in that room.

So what is this Marine really guilty of? Following orders? Killing an innocent half-dead man. Man, how many of this scenarios occured in Iraq and we dont know about them - imagine US Army placing to court every single one of those "violators".

This Marine is only guilty of doing his Job, a Dirty Job, but hey, somebody is got to do it. He didnt choose this Job, he got it from his General, and the General got his orders from the Supreme Commander of US Armed Forces - the President. He put this Marine in this situation, that he has to decide and make a split second decision about Life and Death - who gets to live? "I shoot this guy, and we all live for sure, or I check if hes allright, and we might all die?" But he's a solider, he has quesitons like this all the time popping in his head.

And he is not the problem - the problem is the attitude of the people that cheer and support, that this guy is Free, while closing one eye for all those innocent dead civilians in Fallujah, that have fallen in this or Worse kind of way. Thats what I think of.

When a GI Fan sees that video, he will cheer and jump around like skippy and LA Maximus (Great Shot, lad!).

One camera - One viewpoint.

100 cameres - One Hundred viewpoints.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 01:33 PM
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Strange Calculus


Originally posted by Souljah
One camera - One viewpoint.

100 cameres - One Hundred viewpoints.

There are thousands of journalists in Iraq with thousands of cameras.

Despite this, I see very little footage or “smoking gun” evidence of “U.S. atrocities” circulating around the Internet.

Oh there is some, but a lot of rehashes (Abu Ghraib, anyone?) and most of them questionable cases at best.

In light of all the coverage, I find it frankly rather amazing that so little evidence of alleged U.S. atrocities actually makes it onto the Internet.

Seems to me, based on how much attention this case got, that journalists would literally give an arm and a leg for similar footage (not an unusual trade-off in a combat zone).

Are journalists incredibly unlucky when it comes to capturing evidence of the rampant war crimes being perpetrated by Americans there? Are they being successfully suppressed? Are they incompetent ?Or are the allegations of “U.S. atrocities” exaggerated?

Does the U.S. really have that level of control over all international media, including Arab media, and all journalists in Iraq?

Some credible evidence one way or the other would be a refreshing change of pace.

Barring that, it is a puzzlement.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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There are thousands of journalists in Iraq with thousands of cameras.


There are very few journalists covering Iraq from Iraq, from what I understand most of them are covering Iraq from Jordan these days. Between the coalition and the insurgents, being a jouranilst in Iraq has become a very dangerous business.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by Dr Love
Ohhhhhh Yey!!! That's great news skippy. I think I'll go outside and frolic.


I especially loved it when that guys melon exploded. Yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.......


Peace out


Well, I don’t imply I am happy about the shooting itself. It would have been best if the incident didn’t happen at all. But it did. And I am happy that this soldier isn’t going to get prosecuted for something he did, that at the time was the right thing to do. Don’t be angry at that soldier, be angry at the situation.


I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating a point someone else already made, but... How can you say it was the right thing to do at the time? Were you there? I think no one can be the judge of that. The closest you can come would be soldiers in Iraq who have been in similar situations, but even then, no situation is exactly the same. That's why we have to put our faith in the judicial system to hear testimony from people who were there. It's not perfect but it's the closest we can come to forming a judgment short of being omniprescient.

-koji K.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Majic
Strange Calculus


Originally posted by Souljah
One camera - One viewpoint.

100 cameres - One Hundred viewpoints.

There are thousands of journalists in Iraq with thousands of cameras.

Despite this, I see very little footage or “smoking gun” evidence of “U.S. atrocities” circulating around the Internet.

A missunderstanding - I was applying to the number of views and opinions, by the metaphor of Camera, as an Eye. I wasnt appying to the work of journalists.

But I know about how the journalists in Iraq, that were NOT embedded with Pentagon, were not treated the Same. The Bush quote: "Your with US or against US" is also in full effect here. Read this thread of mine, if you have time - its very interesting:

In Bed With Pentagon

He Who does not write what we want to, is sleeping with the enemy - sleeping with terrorists, Al-qaeda and Saddam loyalists. ERGO: because Qatar based Al-Jazeera is not in bed with us, they are sleeping with the enemy. What he wanted to say was 3 things:

1. That "War against Terror" is really "War against Media".

2. Why US forces must deal with these "hostile journalists".

3. Why the US forces are targeting "hostile journalists" in Iraq and Afganistan.


But thats Another Story. Again.




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